Aikido Credentials [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

David Orange

08-27-2006, 08:46 PM

...I'm waiting for this separate thread on "Aikido Credentials" with bated breath. Should be easy to clear up my credentials...

Great, Mike. I somehow missed the thread where you addressed this previously.

Since we first crossed paths on the "What is Ki?" thread on e-budo, I've been wondering about your background in aikido. I've developed some respect for you since then, but I've still never seen your answer as to where, with whom and how long you trained in aikido.

And that has stood as a barrier to my developing deeper respect for you because I've seen you challenge other people as to their credentials in both tai chi and aikido and you have mentioned how important credentials are in Chinese martial arts, but you have refused in every case I've seen, to simply state your aikido background.

George Ledyard Sensei spoke very well of your ability to generate power very easily, but I know people who can do that and claim no knowledge of aikido. Ron Epstein, for one, showed me one of his favorite techniques--light uppercut digs just below the ribs. He showed me only the form and tapped my abs just a few times, putting no effort into it at all, but I felt "power" coming out my back. It was one of the most startling sensations I ever had. It was excellent karate, but it was not aikido.

It is true that Ueshiba OSensei never backed down from a challenge, but he never issued challenges, either and he never hesitated to say who had taught him. So it was disappointing to see you post your address and, elsewhere, imply that you would pay a visit on people who questioned your aikido credentials rather than just answer the question.

So please, with all due respect, would you just outline here your background in aikido--and any other arts in which you've studied that you'd care to outline. It will clear up a lot of pointless talk.

And by the way, while it is warriorly to post your address on these boards, it's really not a good idea in the internet age. With your name and address, your SSN is only a few mouse clicks away and someone who wants to hurt you can really get under your skin before you know what has happened.

Again, with all due respect, and hoping we can meet as friends.

Best wishes.

David

Mike Sigman

08-28-2006, 09:41 AM

Since we first crossed paths on the "What is Ki?" thread on e-budo, I've been wondering about your background in aikido. I've developed some respect for you since then, but I've still never seen your answer as to where, with whom and how long you trained in aikido. I simply don't get into the "credentials" things for a couple of reasons (not that I really mind saying them, if it's germane, though):

1. Every pretentious loser I've ever met has good-*sounding* credentials. I.e., credentials tell me very little (granted there is *some* information, but not necessarily very much). I've met guys from places I've never heard that have eclectic martial-arts credentials and who have had skills that impress me.... most of that, they usually get on their own. I've met guys who had "name" teachers and who "studied in Japan or China for 12 years" that know forms, applications, buzzwords, have cool anecdotes, etc., but who have no basic body skills.

2. My own skills (which I have freely posted are only so-so) cover many years and many teachers. In discussing these things, I've found that despite the facades everyone likes to adopt, diplomacy and a retiring personality just get you shoved under the mat. If you're an information seeker, the way I admittedly am, you have to be blunt and on the line in order to accumulate the greatest amount of information in the shortest amount of time.

3. Since I personally choose to sometimes to have an adversarial discussion, I try to leave the names of teachers, friends, sources (who wouldn't want to have their names used), etc.

While sure, I'm fully aware that I antagonize some people, you need to be aware that at the same time I garner a lot of similar-minded people/friends who are clinically involved and curious in the martial arts. Usually the people I wind up on the wrong side of are the people I wouldn't want to be friends with, anyway, so I don't pay much attention. The proof-in-the-pudding to my admittedly-not-perfect approach is, for example, that I have gathered an *enormous* amount of useable (to me) information in the last year and a half from *Aikido* sources.... something I would have never dreamed possible 2 years ago.

So, to answer your question, I started in Aikido after many years of competition Judo and Okinawan Karate. I'm sure I started in 1974 or 1975 with Steve House in Hollywood, Florida... under Yamada's line. I had numerous other short-term encounters and teachers and I wound up with T.K. Lee in Houston. Although there was discussion about me testing for shodan at that point (7 or 8 years total), I simply had begun to lose interest in Aikido as a source for the jin/kokyu skills, so I left as an ikkyu and went looking to find if I could get good information from Chinese teachers. Bear in mind, that at that point, I set up my habit of dropping any teacher who appeared to have limited information and I refused to continue if I didn't see a path of substantive progress ahead of me. No information, no stayee.And that has stood as a barrier to my developing deeper respect for you because I've seen you challenge other people as to their credentials in both tai chi and aikido and you have mentioned how important credentials are in Chinese martial arts, but you have refused in every case I've seen, to simply state your aikido background. Where? I go by what someone says about basic skills. Almost nothing I say is beyond a fairly basic level. Someone knows, they can talk, argue, question, etc., and it's a good conversation. Someone doesn't know and they try to BS that they do know, they might fool themselves, but they don't fool me or a number of lurkers on this and other forums. It boils down to that old question: "Who do you really want to impress??... the people who are qualified and have some expertise or the beginners who will rely on your 'credentials' as a sign that you indeed have status and knowledge". I simply don't play the games. I don't want someone's "respect", David, as a goal. I find that I make friends fairly easily with like-minded martial artists and I get to exchange information and ideas with them. "Respect" to me has connotations of knowledge, not 'credentials'. George Ledyard Sensei spoke very well of your ability to generate power very easily, but I know people who can do that and claim no knowledge of aikido. Ron Epstein, for one, showed me one of his favorite techniques--light uppercut digs just below the ribs. He showed me only the form and tapped my abs just a few times, putting no effort into it at all, but I felt "power" coming out my back. It was one of the most startling sensations I ever had. It was excellent karate, but it was not aikido. Cool, but you weren't there when I met with George and Rich Moore, so you really don't know what I showed them. Hitting someone to impress them wasn't at all what I remember... my thoughts of the meeting go back to what jin skills were discussed and accomplished and who could do what, what their experience was, etc. Besides, I don't need to "tap" anyone. If some part of my body is touching a person, it should be enough. All the things we were talking about were in relation to skills that were useable in Aikido, BTW. It is true that Ueshiba OSensei never backed down from a challenge, but he never issued challenges, either and he never hesitated to say who had taught him. So it was disappointing to see you post your address and, elsewhere, imply that you would pay a visit on people who questioned your aikido credentials rather than just answer the question. My "Aikido credentials" have nothing to do with it, and the posts were pretty clear about it. If I was rude and obnoxious, name-calling to someone who was really a martial artist and he suddenly showed up and wanted to try it on, I wouldn't be surprised or "disappointed", since I had started the attack. Is it your feeling that it's should be safe to claim as a "credential" that you are a "martial artist" and yet be surprised when you name-call from behind a keyboard and they want to see your credentials as a "martial artist"? Really? My suggestion would be that you don't set the definition for martial artist.... other people may have other ideas. Again, with all due respect, and hoping we can meet as friends. David, you picked your own path with me in some of your posts on E-Budo. I'm not interested. If you demonstrably understood the basic ki and kokyu skills, that would have come out by now. I don't take the ki and kokyu skills as a tireless subject that I beat to death, I take them as the unavoidable threshold to understanding Asian martial arts.

As Ushiro Sensei said, "No Kokyu, no Aikido". It's simply impossible to honestly and correctly discuss Aikido, Karate, Taiji, Xingyi, the "Koryu", Sumo, etc., etc., without those topics as the baseline entre'. They are not some sort of maybe-useful-maybe-not addendum. Accept that as a fact. Do you want me to "pretend" that it's not so and to have "respectful" discussions in which out of "friendliness" I pretend that it's not so????? What would be the point?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman

08-28-2006, 09:59 AM

I wanted to keep this part separate from my previous response:

George Ledyard Sensei spoke very well of your ability to generate power very easily, but I know people who can do that and claim no knowledge of aikido. Ron Epstein, for one, showed me one of his favorite techniques--light uppercut digs just below the ribs. He showed me only the form and tapped my abs just a few times, putting no effort into it at all, but I felt "power" coming out my back. It was one of the most startling sensations I ever had. It was excellent karate, but it was not aikido. I have no idea who Ron Epstein is (I've seen the name somewhere maybe), but for you to say whatever he did "was no Aikido" is for you to claim credentials in Aikido. If you have credentials in Aikido, the to paraphrase Tohei, "what do you do for ki?". What sort of punch/tap to the ribs would someone in Aikido use in a similar demonstration. How would they use kokyu and ki power? Let's see your credentials. Think of it like this, in relation to credentials:

(1.) I have verifiable time, etc., studying Aikido. Some rank. Some knowledge of techniques and surrounding practices, etc. You do to.

(2.) Aikido, like a number of other martial arts of Asia, is simply an external shell without knowledge of the basics of ki/kokyu. I have demonstrable skills in these things and I can write enough descriptions so that people who also have some knowledge of these basic skills can spot it by what I say that's right and what I say that's wrong. You have demonstrated on E-Budo that you don't really have a knowledge of these things, but let's say I was wrong. Show us what you know.

The question comes down to the idea of if someone has "Aikido credentials" they should have both number 1 and number 2, since the ki/kokyu things are a cornerstone to the "move from the hara always" movement of Aikido. If we both have credentials in number 1, but only one of us has credentials in number 2, who really has credentials???? Nice philosophical discussion, isn't it?

Unless I wildly miss my guess, I'm sure this also applies to David Skaggs, Brad Pruitt and others.... and their own instructors. Easy way to prove me wrong, though, and I'm happy to see anything that shows me wrong.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

dps

08-28-2006, 11:17 AM

Mike Sigman

08-28-2006, 11:24 AM

Thank You From my previous post:

(1.) I have verifiable time, etc., studying Aikido. Some rank. Some knowledge of techniques and surrounding practices, etc. You do to.

(2.) Aikido, like a number of other martial arts of Asia, is simply an external shell without knowledge of the basics of ki/kokyu. I have demonstrable skills in these things and I can write enough descriptions so that people who also have some knowledge of these basic skills can spot it by what I say that's right and what I say that's wrong. You have demonstrated on E-Budo that you don't really have a knowledge of these things, but let's say I was wrong. Show us what you know.

The question comes down to the idea of if someone has "Aikido credentials" they should have both number 1 and number 2, since the ki/kokyu things are a cornerstone to the "move from the hara always" movement of Aikido. If we both have credentials in number 1, but only one of us has credentials in number 2, who really has credentials???? Nice philosophical discussion, isn't it?

Unless I wildly miss my guess, I'm sure this also applies to David Skaggs, Brad Pruitt and others.... and their own instructors. Easy way to prove me wrong, though, and I'm happy to see anything that shows me wrong.

I've established my credentials on both levels, David. You have credentials, presumably, in number 1. What are your credentials in number 2? Do you see how having credentials in number 1, without in number 2, can simply indicate a superficial shell of credentials? As Ushiro noted, "No kokyu, no Aikido". Surely someone that "knows kokyu" well enough to "teach Aikido" can establish their understanding in a few words? Wouldn't you agree? Now, what are your credentials in Aikido?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

dps

08-28-2006, 11:43 AM

Mike Sigman

08-28-2006, 12:08 PM

From my post three days ago on the "Bush Is" thread,

" I never bad mouthed you or questioned your ability or knowledge about Tai Chi or the internal strength training. I studied Tai Chi for about a month twenty years ago and do not consider myself knowledgeable enough to make claims about it. I have studied Aikido. From 1985 to 1990 I practiced Aikido two to four times a week at Youngstown State University under Sensei Larry Hlywa from New Castle Aikikai and Sensei Chuck Cycyk of the Youngstown Aikikai. The early part of my training we were not affiliated with any organization to receive ranking. The last few years we were under the United States Aikido Federation and I was fourth kyu when due to a work accident I had to quit. Sixteen years later I started actively practicing in Shodokan Aikido under Sensei Michael Gelum in the Japanese Aikido Association/ USA where I am starting as a white belt again.

This is the information that I am asking you to provide to establish your credentials as a person who has studied Aikido as you have claimed."

Also the same information has been available in my public profile.Fine, but none of the information you provided tells us if you or your instructor even understand the cornerstone of Aikido. And since it's become apparent in a lot of discussions on various forums that most western Aikido (and Taiji, Karate, etc.) are actually bereft of these skills, someone's "credentials" can't be deteremined with time and rank, apparently. So your insistence on seeing my "credentials" has been answered, now I want to know about your full credentials. Heck, I'm even interested in the credentials of your instructor, in terms of the ki/kokyu things.

But let's think about that for a second. If your instructor is like the vast number of "instructors" in the West, he probably doesn't know much about the Ki and Kokyu things. That makes the conversation sort of awkward when we justifiably make that a part of "credentials", doesn't it? What should we do? Should we try to toss that out of credentials and pretend that the ki/kokyu things are some unnecessary adjunct of Aikido? Hmmmmmm. No, that won't work, because "no kokyu, no Aikido". Besides there's a very strong ethics point that comes up..... how can someone claim to be a "teacher" of Aikido and understand the "deep subtleties" of Aikido (or any other art... I'm just making the debate issue around Aikido) and yet not understand the complex and subtle aspects of the ki/kokyu skills?

It's interesting to note, as I have done once before, that once someone of Ikeda Sensei's caliber and ethics got a source for kokyu training, he went for it and *at the same time* provided it for all the students that he could. That makes him a helluva person and a helluva teacher, in my mind. Then I look at the lethargic responses of a number of other teachers (not all, of course, some are going to wind up way ahead of others, as usual, by their own efforts)..... where's the beef????

The really critical question for everyone who is a teacher is this: If you put up a shingle as a teacher and you take the trust, loyalty, and dues of well-meaning students, you owe it to them to teach the full art. If you deliberately blow off or trivialize the critical skills and continue on with the role-playing, costume-wearing, buzzword pronouncing aspect of "Aikido", where does this "harmony" and "love" for your students come in??? Part of someone's "credentials" has to be the cornerstone knowledge of the ki/kokyu skills and any teacher who lethargically shrugs off the responsibility of getting those skills and providing it for their students needs to have some deep thoughts about what are credentials and what debt do they ethically owe students by continued search for information.

Of course, in the real world, this lack is a fairly recently revelation and it will take some time to correct. But the part about the ethical debt to students and also the realization that every teacher's own reputation will be on the line 10 years from now in terms of how much they understand these things should be understood.

So I don't mind answering questions about "credentials", but it's a can of worms when you open it, David. You opened it.. why not open it for everyone??? For discussion's sake, I would posit that while in actuality my credentials in Aikido are fairly limited, when you add in what I know about ki/kokyu things, the total weight of the credentials makes it a weird study in exactly what "credentials" means because I could submit for discussion the position that I know more *total* Aikido (and logically it's somewhat defensible, even if speciously).

Mike Sigman

Neal Earhart

08-28-2006, 12:08 PM

So, to answer your question, I started in Aikido after many years of competition Judo and Okinawan Karate. I'm sure I started in 1974 or 1975 with Steve House in Hollywood, Florida... under Yamada's line. I had numerous other short-term encounters and teachers and I wound up with T.K. Lee in Houston. Although there was discussion about me testing for shodan at that point (7 or 8 years total) Mike Sigman

Indeed a small world in Aikido...I started with James Walsh (he was in PA at the time), who was in Florida years ago with Steve House. I believe Steve was one of Jim's very early students.

I have also trained with T.K. Lee when I would travel to Houston on business. I used to send T.K. one of our company's calendar's each year (up until they stopped printing them)...for some reason he liked the Swiss countryside photos as presented by Ciba-Geigy.

Mike Sigman

08-28-2006, 12:40 PM

Indeed a small world in Aikido 'Tis indeed. ;)

Mike

statisticool

08-28-2006, 03:09 PM

And since it's become apparent in a lot of discussions on various forums that most western Aikido (and Taiji, Karate, etc.) are actually bereft of these skills,

Arguments by geography don't really hold much weight. Neither does assessing someones' physical capability by looking at the text they write.

For example, if I was going to assess your taijiquan skills, I wouldn't look at what you write, but look at you actually sparring, using them in a more real situation instead of a trick or stationary drill.

.... how can someone claim to be a "teacher" of Aikido and understand the "deep subtleties" of Aikido (or any other art... I'm just making the debate issue around Aikido) and yet not understand the complex and subtle aspects of the ki/kokyu skills?

This hypothetical teacher may not emphasize what you do, how you do it, or the terms you use.

The really critical question for everyone who is a teacher is this: If you put up a shingle as a teacher and you take the trust, loyalty, and dues of well-meaning students, you owe it to them to teach the full art.

They teach the art as they understand it. If you believe you have the "full art", you are welcome to teach it as you understand it.

Now where is your 'family roll' that you were pestering me about in the thread on Zheng style taijiquan to prove you were a student of any of those people? ;)

Justin

David Orange

08-28-2006, 06:37 PM

(1.) I have verifiable time, etc., studying Aikido. Some rank. Some knowledge of techniques and surrounding practices, etc. You do to.

(2.) Aikido, like a number of other martial arts of Asia, is simply an external shell without knowledge of the basics of ki/kokyu.

The question comes down to the idea of if someone has "Aikido credentials" they should have both number 1 and number 2, since the ki/kokyu things are a cornerstone to the "move from the hara always" movement of Aikido. If we both have credentials in number 1, but only one of us has credentials in number 2, who really has credentials???? Nice philosophical discussion, isn't it?

Well, you claim so much aikido background, but you admitted that most of it was with teachers who couldn't even teach you anything. Yet when you want to make claims, it was good enough to say that you have aikido background. Why did you hang around so long with people that didn't know the truth? Why didn't you go to Japan and find the real heart of the matter?

Well, as to the 1 and 2 things, I guess my number 1 beats yours, but wouldn't it amount to a "pissing match" to say so?

On the other hand, I have to say, you are definitely full of Number 2.

Best to ya, Mike.

David

Mike Sigman

08-28-2006, 06:44 PM

Well, you claim so much aikido background, but you admitted that most of it was with teachers who couldn't even teach you anything. I think I'm about at the end of watching you make absurd attributions about things I never said, David. You're dishonest, if nothing else. One last time: cite, please.

Mike Sigman

Upyu

08-28-2006, 07:51 PM

poop

Justin

man, the chihuahua never lets up does it?

David Orange

08-28-2006, 08:11 PM

...I'm about at the end of watching you make absurd attributions about things I never said, David. You're dishonest, if nothing else. One last time: cite, please.

I started in 1974 or 1975 with Steve House in Hollywood, Florida... under Yamada's line. I had numerous other short-term encounters and teachers and I wound up with T.K. Lee in Houston...I left as an ikkyu and went looking to find if I could get good information from Chinese teachers. Bear in mind, that at that point, I set up my habit of dropping any teacher who appeared to have limited information and I refused to continue if I didn't see a path of substantive progress ahead of me. No information, no stayee.

Excuse me if I misunderstood, but it sounds like you left each of those teachers because he appeared to have limited information.

Isn't that what you intended to say? It sounded like it.

David

Mike Sigman

08-28-2006, 08:15 PM

Excuse me if I misunderstood, but it sounds like you left each of those teachers because he appeared to have limited information. Only the last one, if you'll read it. I moved from Florida to Houston because of a job relocation. You just seem to make it up as you go.

Mike Sigman

David Orange

08-28-2006, 08:51 PM

Only the last one, if you'll read it. I moved from Florida to Houston because of a job relocation. You just seem to make it up as you go.

From the bulk of your statements and your voluminous outpouring of posts, I got the impression that you were saying none of these people had the basic information or else were withholding it from you. Because when you got to T.K. Lee and almost to black belt, you decided to go to the Chinese for information on jin/kokyu skills.

Sounds like you had summed up all that aikido background as a dead end. Why didn't you go to Japan to find the real source of it? Then you wouldn't have to feel around for meanings to assign to words that already have old, longstanding meanings.

David

Mike Sigman

08-28-2006, 09:05 PM

From the bulk of your statements and your voluminous outpouring of posts, I got the impression Oh... well if you got an impression, I guess that's almost the same thing as a direct quote and therefore it was OK to misconstrue it. Hmmmmm. Sounds like you had summed up all that aikido background as a dead end. Why didn't you go to Japan to find the real source of it? Then you wouldn't have to feel around for meanings to assign to words that already have old, longstanding meanings. Well, you're a case in point, David. You don't know the number 2 I mentioned briefly before, yet you consider yourself an expert. It's dangerous out there. The world is full of role-players. ;)

So I did decide to go to the source. Given that I knew "Ki" came from "Qi" and so did so many other things derive from China... plus the descriptions of the unreal-sounding feats in Japan and China sounded the same... I reasoned that the origins were probably from China, even though I had a bad impression of things Chinese. But I reasoned it out and luckily Houston has a massive Chinese population and I was on my way. Not that I just ran into success, but at least I kept making small steps. In Aikido, I *knew* the power was there, but I couldn't find any teachers who had more than bits or pieces.

So, even though you're being snide about it, you're not far off what really happened.

BTW.... this stuff isn't all that easy to learn. People that start too late don't have much of a chance of reconfiguring the way that they're used to moving. That's one additional reason why I keep suggesting that people get a little more serious.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

David Orange

08-28-2006, 10:29 PM

the descriptions of the unreal-sounding feats in Japan and China sounded the same... In Aikido, I *knew* the power was there, but I couldn't find any teachers who had more than bits or pieces.

Ok, so you WERE saying that none of your teachers really understood aikido, right?

Jeez, you keep saying things, then claiming you didn't say them, then you turn around and say them again. Have you not noticed that?

So, even though you're being snide about it, you're not far off what really happened.

That's why I said it. YOU wrote it, I read it back to you. If it sounds snide, that's because I'm reading Mike Sigman back to you.

BTW.... this stuff isn't all that easy to learn. People that start too late don't have much of a chance of reconfiguring the way that they're used to moving. That's one additional reason why I keep suggesting that people get a little more serious.

No, it's not easy to learn. I went 10,000 miles and spent five years in Japan to get the best I could. All you really need is basic aikido technique and an uke who doesn't fall down just because you move your fingers.

But tell me, Mike, why was it that this big German guy was able to punch me in the ribs and not move me, not knock the breath out of me, not affect me in any way? And why do you think the three of them shut up and continued the lesson with me after that?

They weren't going to classes after work. They had traveled thousands of miles to see the man regarded as "The Father of Japanese Martial Arts" in Europe and he put them under my instruction.

I know you're just overflowing with Number 2, Mike. You're so full of it, you wouldn't be able to hear anyone else if they did tell you the truth. You've got Number 2 coming out of your ears.

Gernot Hassenpflug

08-28-2006, 11:32 PM

Peer pressure is a terrible thing when it's the wrong pressure. That's why it's so good to have one's butt kicked now and again to "empty one's cup", or at least addle the contents. I've been trying the pushout with people at aikido, asking them to just push however they like (only I am standing in the straight-knee position). I learn something each time, especially when I'm pushed over. It makes me work harder and harder on the legs, despite the pain, because every time I try this pushout, I know my legs are still not connected to my back properly and I use the arms to disperse a large part of the force. I need something like that to keep me from becoming lazy. Much easier to fantasize about kokyu than to realize it in one's own body.

Mike Sigman

08-29-2006, 07:31 AM

But tell me, Mike, why was it that this big German guy was able to punch me in the ribs and not move me, not knock the breath out of me, not affect me in any way? And why do you think the three of them shut up and continued the lesson with me after that? Because you're actually Dan Harden? ;)

Mike

David Orange

08-29-2006, 08:02 AM

Because you're actually Dan Harden? ;)

Mike

Exactly.

It has taken you a long time, but you have finally figured it out. I've been posting under multiple IDs. My real name is Danvid Oranden. You win the Golden Buddha Robe for figuring it out and you are now ready to found your own style.

I hereby name you Master of Sigmando. You may pronounce it: Zygmundo.

Danvid

Mike Sigman

08-29-2006, 08:07 AM

Exactly.

It has taken you a long time, but you have finally figured it out. I've been posting under multiple IDs. My real name is Danvid Oranden. You win the Golden Buddha Robe for figuring it out and you are now ready to found your own style.

I hereby name you Master of Sigmando. You may pronounce it: Zygmundo.

Danvid I dunno..... you're going to have to improve on your schtick quite a bit if you have any hope of surpassing Justin Smith for the AikiWeb SPD Award. But's it's interesting to see the top contender from Aikido against Cheng Man Ching's best (and believe me, they have quite a few to draw from). ;)

Best of Luck.

Mike Sigman

David Orange

08-29-2006, 08:16 AM

I have no hope of surpassing anyone, Mike. We each have earned what we have and I am content with that.

David

08-29-2006, 12:46 PM

This thread is a total waste of bandwidth! Why don't you two do everyone a favor, and take your disregard for each other and this discussion offline?

Ron Tisdale

08-29-2006, 01:24 PM

Hi Robert,

As soon as you saw the thread was about "credentials", you should have known... ;)

Best,
Ron

statisticool

08-29-2006, 02:43 PM

I dunno..... you're going to have to improve on your schtick quite a bit if you have any hope of surpassing Justin Smith for the AikiWeb SPD Award. But's it's interesting to see the top contender from Aikido against Cheng Man Ching's best (and believe me, they have quite a few to draw from). ;)

I'm not the one making claims of people not getting it. Including very questionable ones like 'westerners', etc.

I'm not the one making claims that kokyu/jin, etc.

I'm not the one making veiled threats to show up at peoples' places because they disagree with ones' opinion on taijiqua

I'm not the one pretending that because I have practiced Zheng taijiquan that somehow I am a representative of the style (and indeed, this might probably be the main reason you ask for credentials- certainly yoru history has shown that you've done this before).

I'm not the one demonizing people as cult members, worshipping gods etc, becuse I disagree with their points.

I'm not the one getting quite agitated when a person quotes from published taijiquan and aikido books by recognized masters.

I'm not the one unable to explain how 'unusual strength' is not just one waxing romantic about regular ol' strength, efficient movement, timing, balance, etc.

I'm not the one booted from E-Budo...

But I'm sure you have something left to contribute. Just publish it, get it known and accepted by lots of people, and you're good to go.

Justin

Upyu

08-29-2006, 03:40 PM

lololocopter
No one was booted from E-budo Justin.

dps

08-29-2006, 05:02 PM

So please, with all due respect, would you just outline here your background in aikido--and any other arts in which you've studied that you'd care to outline. It will clear up a lot of pointless talk.
He did. It didn't.

Mashu

08-29-2006, 05:12 PM

lololocopter
No one was booted from E-budo Justin.
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=392305&postcount=1

It might have worked but you forgot to add "These aren't the droids you're looking for..." :)

Mike Sigman

08-29-2006, 05:53 PM

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=392305&postcount=1

It might have worked but you forgot to add "These aren't the droids you're looking for..." :) Well, as long as someone wants to bring it up, why not ask Peter Goldsbury what happened? Last I remember I presented a position in a debate and suddenly I got a message from the list owner (don't get me wrong... I've been a member of E-Budo for years, but seldom posted until that little flurry because it's sort of a "blue-collar" karate-guys list, IMO). Seems he said something about the "moderators", but I had emails from 4 of them asking what happened. The topic I was engaged in on Peter's thread had to do with assumptions and skews in translations. Unless it's been removed, the non-answered questions, positions, etc., might still be there.

But being banned from someone's list? I don't see what the problem is... many people have many lists (I have one of my own). Sometimes people are removed, hopefully for good reason (hey, though, it's their list). The idea of making a big deal of someone being removed from a particular list though is one of the more childish "nyah-nyah's" I've ever seen. But you can pretty much put in a group the kind of people that make a big deal of something like that.

FWIW

Mike

Mashu

08-29-2006, 06:00 PM

Who knows? Usually they give people a second chance over there though. You didn't happen to say bad things about contractors in Iraq?

Mike Sigman

08-29-2006, 06:13 PM

Who knows? Usually they give people a second chance over there though. You didn't happen to say bad things about contractors in Iraq?Oops..... bad thing to talk about, eh??

Nah.... I didn't. And I think the moderators tend to also get personally involved on that forum too much... which was why I never posted on it much in preceeding years.

Think about the topics, that were going on. It was about internal strength issues. It's pretty obvious that there are a lot of instructor-level people in the US, etc., that don't have those skills. Do you think any defensiveness or resentment could come out of those topics if an "instructor" didn't know much about them? Of course... and that's actually a big discussion we've had for years on a few lists. What does a "name" teacher who has, for instance, "written advanced books on the subjects" do when someone indicates that he might be missing something basic? What does that teacher do down the road when he has an "advanced" book that leaves out the basic body skills/mechanics that will be much more widely disseminated in a few years? Would you suggest that they will all act with the best ethics in such a situation? No, of course not.

The "always a student" stuff is bunk, in the real world. Personally, I would be *surprised* if most people didn't get defensive and perhaps let their ethics go to the wind... and I've seen it too often anyway to let it surprise me. And this all gets back to the subject of the thread... "credentials". "Credentials" are a big deal to a lot of people. It's status in the pecking order. That's why I suggested to David Skaggs that he just stick with issues; not personalities, not credentials.

FWIW

Mike

Upyu

08-29-2006, 06:23 PM

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=392305&postcount=1

It might have worked but you forgot to add "These aren't the droids you're looking for..." :)

Wow he was booted!
Well, E-budo's loss if you ask me.
There's a lot of Koryu snobs on there that tend to get offended easily :D

Actually...considering the japanese I posted towards David on that thread, I'm surprised I didn't get booted myself.

日本フェチなのにろくに日本語わからんやつ多いからなぁ :p

Mashu

08-29-2006, 06:55 PM

Mike Sigman

08-29-2006, 07:24 PM

Of course... and that's actually a big discussion we've had for years on a few lists. What does a "name" teacher who has, for instance, "written advanced books on the subjects" do when someone indicates that he might be missing something basic? What does that teacher do down the road when he has an "advanced" book that leaves out the basic body skills/mechanics that will be much more widely disseminated in a few years? Ignore it and continue on their chartered course. They can do it because they have enough insulation. They aren't all that way though. No, I've seen it. A "name" teacher is temporarily insulated within the neophyte world. But I've already seen some "name" guys' reputations bite the dust because of this same controversy in the Chinese Martial Arts. True, there are factions where they still go on believing their own fables, but those factions are limited. It's sort of like the publisher of "T'ai Chi Magazine" asking Yang Zhen Duo back in (IIRC) 1994 if there was such a thing as "peng jing"... and Yang Zhen Duo said it was the basis of Taiji. Some people are still in denial about it, but many others have moved well past that. When you hear some "name" discussed who proved a lack of basic knowledge in what he wrote or said, I've seen just average martial artists shrug and say, "Oh... he didn't know", dismissing him. No one is insulated.
The "always a student" stuff is bunk, in the real world. Personally, I would be *surprised* if most people didn't get defensive and perhaps let their ethics go to the wind... and I've seen it too often anyway to let it surprise me. And this all gets back to the subject of the thread... "credentials". "Credentials" are a big deal to a lot of people. It's status in the pecking order.Sure, people often have a lot personally invested in things and situations and disabusing them of their illusions can be an ugly process and they can get creepy on you. But like you state you've been at this for years and your wake seems to be littered with a lot of wreckage. I like to read these types of forums and I've seen a number of people come on with interesting ideas about Aikido and the martial arts. They all had something they wanted to get done and they all have different ways of doing things. In watching all this I just wondered if you feel your way is the best way and if it's getting done what you want to see done? "Littered with wreckage"? Do you mean that some people don't like me or what I say or what I demonstrate? I don't get the point, frankly. Think about the martial arts in general... do you think most people in the martial arts are knowlegeable or just in them for social/exercise reasons? Would you expect them to have serious views or knowledge? I.e., would you expect that they would agree that they don't know "pretty much everything"? I can't imagine a scenario where "most people" would agree with me about knowledge that is widely acknowledged to be kept mainly secret. For all your "wreckage", though, there are a fair number of people who clinically join in these discussions and who are really interested in the nuts and bolts of martial arts. Do you have some idea that there are consensus views in the martial arts that preclude argument? Have you ever noticed the level of insults that were on this forum before I came here this last time?

Is it the best way? I dunno. Maybe it's better to let people like Rob or Ignatius do it their way. Or Ushiro Sensei. Anyway you cut it, all of them (including me) are essentially forced to say, "look people, there's something else out there that is very interesting and is obviously a strong part of Asian martial arts". It's not just me.

But let's go one step further. Take me, Rob, Dan Harden, Ignatius, Ushiro, etc., out of the picture. Let's take it back 3 years. Nobody knew squat about these things. The question to you is.... was it better when no one had a clue about these things that are actually the core of Aikido (and other arts)? Is that the better scenario... would you prefer that the lack of crucial information continued so that some "teachers", etc., didn't get their feathers ruffled or their knowledge challenged???? Is it better for the art to be neglected so that the personalities get assuaged???? Really?

Or perhaps you disagree with the "presentation" and the "posting style"? I've been there, done that. Been so polite and ingratiating that it was sort of funny. Know what it gets? It gets ignored by the hierarchical pecking order. And if you think about it, that's about what should be expected in a human interaction like this is.

My point time and again is "stick to the issues". Sure there are people who don't like someone's "posting style", etc., but the way to handle that is to debate the issues. What some of these, in my opinion, "jerks", don't realize is that I don't care for them personally either, but I at least have the courtesy not to say it (unless they initiate the exchange) and I try to engage them on the issues. That's about all you can expect on a forum with a lot of people trying to exchange info, though.

Internet forums aren't a good and happy place (well, maybe some of the "peace and love" ones try to pretend), but regardless, some fairly interesting information gets exchanged. Look at what Jun initially wrote about it being an information exchange.... not too bad a job gets done, in actuality.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

statisticool

08-29-2006, 07:37 PM

It's sort of like the publisher of "T'ai Chi Magazine" asking Yang Zhen Duo back in (IIRC) 1994 if there was such a thing as "peng jing"... and Yang Zhen Duo said it was the basis of Taiji.

There are, of course, taijiquan practicioners besides Yang who have different opinions. Practicioners have said relaxation is the basis, listening jin is the basis, qi is the basis, dantien is the basis, and on and on.

Another point is that Yang isn't going around saying that so and so doesn't know taijiquan because they don't use the term peng jin, or saying they are not good at aikido because they don't realize kokyu/jin.

, "look people, there's something else out there that is very interesting and is obviously a strong part of Asian martial arts".

Just *what* "something else" is very interesting? Normal strength, efficient movement, timing, balance?

Let's take it back 3 years. Nobody knew squat about these things.

You already mentioned that Yang said something about them in 1994.

The question to you is.... was it better when no one had a clue about these things that are actually the core of Aikido (and other arts)?

If these are the 'core', say of aikido, then why don't any of the Ueshiba's talk in terms that you do as far as I am aware? Why isn't the term peng jin used in the taijiquan classics, or even in any taijiquan writings over 50 years old (I believe)? I mean, for the "basis", one would think such a fundamental term would be mentioned early on.

Justin

eyrie

08-29-2006, 08:20 PM

I can't be certain whether it is my way or the culmination of various bits and pieces I've picked up here and there. Or maybe it was there all the time and I was just too dense to realise it. So I'm going to pull a Ueshiba and say "Takeda Sensei opened my eyes to aikido". For the record, credentials are vastly overrated, not because I have none to speak of, but because we are societally programmed to believe that words on a piece of paper are worth more than the paper itself. I think track record speaks for itself.

David Orange

08-29-2006, 11:39 PM

...credentials are vastly overrated, not because I have none to speak of, but because we are societally programmed to believe that words on a piece of paper are worth more than the paper itself. I think track record speaks for itself.

This is true, but it's not so much paper credentials that anyone was interested in--just where, with whom and for how long Mike trained in aikido. And that question came up because he spoke so adamantly about the subject. Why would anyone be so adamant about a subject in which he really has very little experience?

Pressure on the matter built because whenever anyone asked him what his aikido background was, he just said it didn't matter. He knows people with long backgrounds who are not good. Yet, in other instances, he demanded to know what other people's credentials were. No matter if you had a lot or very little experience, he dismissed it. And STILL, when anyone asked what his own background was in aikido, he avoided the question.

And so this thread came about.

And it turns out that Mike had only eight years of aikido training, ALL under teachers he says "had bits and pieces" and none of whom had "the whole picture." Rather than going on to find a teacher who DID have the whole picture, he moved to Chinese martial arts and has, apparently ever since, tried to explain the higher levels of aikido based on Chinese terms that do not equate to the Japanese concepts he relates them to.

Even this wouldn't be so bad, but whatever the thread or discussion, he enters aggressively, dismisses what people with knowledge of the subject say and goes on about these mismatched theories of his.

I just wanted to get a clearer idea of his basis for saying what he does, so when he invited and begged someone to open this thread, I took the invitation and opened it.

And what you have here is what it is. For what it's worth.

Best wishes.

David

Mike Sigman

08-30-2006, 07:01 AM

[[snip some whining and personal stuff about me]]
And it turns out that Mike had only eight years of aikido training, David, I'm willing to be that my "credentials" are better than yours. Add up the 2 factors I gave and your obvious lack of knowledge about ki and kokyu things. AND I'll be glad to demonstrate. Let me make it clear for you.... when you start talking about "credentials", in an attempt to stuff it to someone, you open up the topic of your own credentials. Don't keep trying to belittle me or my credentials, David. At least don't do it and play self-righteous at the same time.

Mike Sigman

David Orange

08-30-2006, 09:04 AM

David, I'm willing to be that my "credentials" are better than yours.

And I'm willing to bet that you are a lot stronger than I am, but what you "know" simply is NOT aikido and you shouldn't present it as such. The fact is, you have a lot of misconceptions about aikido and a lot of the Japanese terminology you use. Since you don't know any other words for those ideas, you misuse existing terms. That's just not the way to do anything.

Add up the 2 factors I gave and your obvious lack of knowledge about ki and kokyu things.

Obvious to you, maybe, but you are misusing the words to refer to something they DO NOT refer to. That's not my problem. It's yours. And it also seems to really irk you that I insist on your using the terms correctly if you're going to use them. That's a shame.

AND I'll be glad to demonstrate.

Well, when I said that I hoped we could meet as friends, you made it clear that you have no intention of meeting me on a friendly basis. What the hell is that? It sounds like kichigae--a bit of a mental problem. And since that is the case, I'll have to say, "I'm not interested, either."

That being the case, don't even think about showing up at my house unannounced. If you want to meet me, it had better be prearranged on amenable terms. Come around uninvited and it will not be a good scene.

Let me make it clear for you.... when you start talking about "credentials", in an attempt to stuff it to someone, you open up the topic of your own credentials.

Mike, no one is trying to "stuff it to you." The problem developed just because you talked so much about aikido and refused simply to say where you trained, how long and with whom. You are the one who said that none of your teachers had "the whole picture" or whatever it was, precisely, that you said. But you did say that NONE of them knew aikido completely.

A shodan in aikido is like a high school diploma. Most people get it within four years. You spent eight years with teachers you say did not know the full art. You didn't get a black belt, so it's like you spent eight years in high school and didn't graduate. So you could have gone on and trained with a "good" teacher and, rank or no rank, become qualified to comment. But now almost a quarter century after abandoning aikido without reaching the first level, you want to be seen as an expert on it.

As I've often said, I'm sure you are good at Sigmando or whatever it is you do ("this stuff"), but why call it aikido? That's the whole point. Others have said it too. You obviously have something, but you misrepresent aikido in a way you won't let anyone misrepresent you.

Don't keep trying to belittle me or my credentials, David. At least don't do it and play self-righteous at the same time.

I've been in epidemiology for almost five years, working with internationally renowned doctors. It only takes about three years to get a PhD in "this stuff". Does six years of experience qualify me for a double PhD?

No. Of course not. And I don't claim it.

I also don't claim any big ranks in aikido. I have simple credentials. I was a mainstay of my old organization from 1975 until the late 1980s, when I went to Japan and became uchi deshi to an uchi deshi of Morihei Ueshiba. And he said "Anta wa aikido wo daibu wakaru." "You pretty well understand aikido." After I came back, I adopted the rank of reidan--Zero Degree--for myself and I have not sought any other rank since then.

If you don't accept what I say about aikido, that's your right. But just because I don't accept what you say about it or your misuse of basic terminology it doesn't amount to "self-righteousness."

Why don't you use some well established physics terms to explain your stuff? Would you get mad at a physicist for calling you on that? Would he be self-righteous to point out your misuse?

If you state your credentials as "several years of judo and karate, eight years of aikido and twenty-odd years of Chinese martial arts, resulting in a personal system of self-defense and biomechanical organization," I would be much more supportive of you.

Regards.

David

Mike Sigman

08-30-2006, 09:21 AM

And I'm willing to bet that you are a lot stronger than I am, but what you "know" simply is NOT aikido and you shouldn't present it as such. Stop. Where did I claim that what I've been discussing is Aikido, David? Why do you deliberately misinterpret what everyone says? Is it some sort of compulsion you have? You haven't even acknowledged the last number of calls for a cite to back up your false claims of what I and other people have said. Now either give a cite or retract. Again.

Mike Sigman

Taliesin

08-30-2006, 09:22 AM

Perhaps we should start the Mike Sigman dictionary for so that those of us who speak English as our first language to understand what Mike means when he uses the following words,

Obvious - Opinion of Mike Sigman on any subject - unlikely to be backed up by evidence, fact, or reason. Simply put if Mike thinks that's how it is - it's obvious.

Dishonest - An interpretation of Mike Sigman's words in a manner he finds inconvenient. (NB: It is irrelevant whether the interpretation is accurate or fair if Mike doesn't like it it's dishonest)

Expert - Mike Sigman

Idiot, Moron, Imbecile etc - Anyone who disagrees with Mike Sigman

dps

08-30-2006, 10:45 AM

Perhaps we should start the Mike Sigman dictionary for so that those of us who speak English as our first language to understand what Mike means when he uses the following words,
Then you could use the dictionary's data base for a software program for translation.

Mike Sigman

08-30-2006, 10:50 AM

Hmmmm.... notice all the personal stuff from David, David, and David? It's cute.

Who is your teacher, David Skaggs? What is his name? Now that we're into credentials, let's hear it. David Chalk... your teacher?

Mike Sigman

David Orange

08-30-2006, 11:44 AM

Hmmmm.... notice all the personal stuff from David, David, and David?

I would be concerned, but every one of us is responding to your own well-demonstrated penchant for personal attacks, dismissal and disrespect. Like Rob and the name thing: he can do it to others, but it hurts when it comes back home.

You're getting it from many angles because you send it out in every direction.

Best to you.

David

Mike Sigman

08-30-2006, 12:00 PM

You're getting it from many angles because you send it out in every direction.Actually, I don't see it coming "from many angles", David. I see it coming only from a very certain type of person. A very narrow angle of people with a certain commonality.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

David Orange

08-30-2006, 12:08 PM

Actually, I don't see it coming "from many angles", David. I see it coming only from a very certain type of person. A very narrow angle of people with a certain commonality.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Right--idiots: meaning anyone who disagrees with you.

Chalk is in England, a lawyer. I am in Alabama, at a University. I don't know where Skaggs is, but he has on occasion attacked my statements. So could you tell me what the "commonality" is among us--other than that we all have handed you back the superior malarkey you've handed us?

David

Mike Sigman

08-30-2006, 01:05 PM

Right--idiots: meaning anyone who disagrees with you.

Chalk is in England, a lawyer. I am in Alabama, at a University. I don't know where Skaggs is, but he has on occasion attacked my statements. So could you tell me what the "commonality" is among us--other than that we all have handed you back the superior malarkey you've handed us?I guess, even without the clues from a number of others, you still persist in the name-calling and don't see what it indicates, since it's coming from you, David.

Frankly, I think it's interesting. You've come out and stated your views on kokyu and jin in front of a reasonable number of people (some lurking) so that now you've legitimately called Mochizuki's reputation into question.

Skaggs and Chalk and been fairly petty and vicious.... but let's see the names of their instructors. It looks pretty much like Skaggs particularly, but Chalk also probably, would like to insult and belittle someone while shielding their own teacher from ridicule. Hey... if we want to get into ridicule, let's open it up. I suspect that the instructors of Skaggs and Chalk don't really know anything about Aikido, in terms of "credentials", and I'm willing to debate the point. Let's have their names.

If there's name-calling, and Jun has let it go on this long, then I assume it should apply unhypocritically all around and Jun won't suddenly change the rules since he's let it go this long when it went one way. Let's play. Someone needs to let Skaggs' and Chalk's instructor know that these lads are into name-calling and "credential" belittling on an internet forum.

Skaggs.... I'm waiting.

Mike Sigman

David Orange

08-30-2006, 01:39 PM

Frankly, I think it's interesting. You've come out and stated your views on kokyu and jin in front of a reasonable number of people (some lurking) so that now you've legitimately called Mochizuki's reputation into question.

As I said, Mochizuki Sensei seldom used either "kokyu" or "ki" when he talked about aikido. So any error is mine an mine alone.

Unless it's yours.

David Skaggs has posted his credentials previously. I don't know about Mr. Chalk.

dps

08-30-2006, 01:45 PM

Mike Sigman

08-30-2006, 01:48 PM

As I said, Mochizuki Sensei seldom used either "kokyu" or "ki" when he talked about aikido. So any error is mine an mine alone. Nope.... you've leaned your reputation all over Mochizuki in a number of previous posts, making him the raison d'etre behind a number of your assertions. The question is why you don't understand some basic relationships. Did Mochizuki not show you or did he simply not know? From your heavy-handed insinuations about your expertise (apparently someone is "superior" acting, if they question your own reverence for your own knowledge), Mochizuki's knowledge is validly in question. Particularly when there are comments from Abe Sensei and others about how some people simply weren't shown some things.

My point is that you should have stuck to the issues instead of getting into the name calling because name-calling can go both ways and go ways you don't want it to go. But now you know. Hopefully we can lay it to rest with you.... it's up to you.
David Skaggs has posted his credentials previously. I don't know about Mr. Chalk. No, I want the name of his teacher. Someone will PM it, no doubt, if he doesn't volunteer it. Chalk, perhaps the same, although to be honest, Chalk is one of those people that leaves me queasy enough that I don't really think we need to go much further with him. He's obvious.

Still, if someone wants to engage in name-calling, maybe we should make it an open topic where people see what happens when it goes back to the source. Maybe that will shut it down a little bit and improve the forum?

Mike Sigman

David Orange

08-30-2006, 01:54 PM

David, I never said nor consider what Mike is saying as "malarkey" any more or any less then I consider what you are saying as "malarkey".

Pardon me. Not to put words into your mouth.

I am not familiar with your style of Aikido or your Senseis. I am familiar with Mike's style (USAF, aikikai) and Yamada Sensei. That is the style I practiced and know what one has to learn and how many hours one has to practice to attain 1st kyu and be close to testing for shodan which is the reason I asked for credentials. Not having studied Tai Chi seriously ( one month 20 years ago) or any of the Chinese Martial Arts, his Aikido credentials gives me a point of reference in trying to understand what he is talking about.

It's not an unreasonable thing on an aikido board to ask people what their background is. I've never seen anyone else evade the question or refuse to answer it after having been asked by a number of people.

While I don't like his way of dealing with people who disagree with him, I don't like yours either.

Yeah. That's pretty bad, isn't it? But generally, I interact with people about the same way they act toward me and/or others. Have I been nasty toward you? I know I was rough with Ken McGrew and Mike and Rob John, but I can't think of others with whom I have been harsh or disrespectful. But those three just mentioned have all given as much as they've gotten or more. IMO.

However, still, your post shows that you, David Chalk and I are not some kind of cohort assembled to attack Mike Sigman and I don't know what else he thinks we have in common.

best wishes.

David

David Orange

08-30-2006, 02:10 PM

Did Mochizuki not show you or did he simply not know?

The more reasonable conclusion is that I didn't have the ultimate capacity to absorb all that Mochizuki Sensei had to offer. Some can't physically absorb it, some can't mentally absorb it. But some people there definitely had the whole thing. I know my limits. You seem to think you have none.

From your heavy-handed insinuations about your expertise (apparently someone is "superior" acting, if they question your own reverence for your own knowledge), Mochizuki's knowledge is validly in question.

Well, he said that we should always question everything. You, however, have less tolerance for being questioned than almost anyone I've encountered. He was around for a long, long time, teaching anyone who came to him, and traveling to many countries to teach the rest. You might have found out for yourself, but it's too late now. You'll never know. Anything else you find fault with can only be a fault with me. Heaven knows there is plenty there, but I doubt anyone would say you are without them either.

Particularly when there are comments from Abe Sensei and others about how some people simply weren't shown some things.

Believe what you want. Mochizuki Sensei stands as one of the earliest and deepest students of Morihei Ueshiba and will be remembered and revered long after you and I have even ceased to make our little waves. However, what little I may be remembered for, it is historical fact that I went to the source and drank from the source as deeply as I could. You skimmed the surface for a few years and criticized the greatest based on your experiences with people who never approached Mochizuki Sensei's level of mastery.

My point is that you should have stuck to the issues instead of getting into the name calling because name-calling can go both ways and go ways you don't want it to go.

Well, I didn't want it to go that way from the first posts I made on E-Budo in the "ki" thread. You set the tone for our interactions from your earliest communications with me. So point a finger at me and ignore the three you point back at yourself.

But now you know. Hopefully we can lay it to rest with you.... it's up to you.

Well, Mike, you begged someone to open this thread so that you could lay out your aikido experience. From all your comments, I thought it would have been a lot longer and that you would have trained with people you at least respected. It could all have been avoided if you had answered the question within the first ten or so times it was asked. Why is it so insulting for you to be asked the same question that anyone on any of these threads would answer without protest?

Still, if someone wants to engage in name-calling, maybe we should make it an open topic where people see what happens when it goes back to the source. Maybe that will shut it down a little bit and improve the forum?

Maybe it has more to do with how you address other people than anything else, Mike.

David

dps

08-30-2006, 02:14 PM

If there's name-calling
Unless I am mistaken the worst I have said about you is,

"Re: Bush is ...
It is an ongoing problem with Mike.

No matter what thread Mike posts in, the conversation ends up about Mike's self proclaimed specialty. It is not just on this forum but on any forum or website that Mike appears on, all his conversation end up talking about Mike's self proclaimed specialty. Initially he confined himself to informing Tai Chi practitioners that they and their teachers and their teacher's teachers, etc are wrong and he has the answer. But Mike, being the ambitious lad that he is, spread his wings and took to informing other martial artists in Judo and Aikido that they too are not doing it right and that he has the answer to correct the problem that he sees.

There is no problem with Mike being a specialist in internal strength, a practitioner of Tai Chi, or expressing his opinion in the political field. If he is going to claim to have trained in Aikido, have knowledge about Aikido and advice based on his training and experience in Aikido, then he should have no problem telling us who do have training and knowledge about Aikido how long he has trained, what rank he has attained, and who was his Sensei(s).

Is there anyone else who claims to have trained in Aikido on this forum that refuses to show their credentials regarding Aikido?"

And you did.
Am I wrong Mike? If so quote me.

Mike Sigman

08-30-2006, 02:30 PM

It's not an unreasonable thing on an aikido board to ask people what their background is. I've never seen anyone else evade the question or refuse to answer it after having been asked by a number of people. I don't evade, David. Show me the point why something is being asked and, if it's germane, I will respond. Out of the blue questions of "what are your credentials" are simply rude and beg to be asked back. Now I want Skaggs' teacher's name. Skaggs has been rude enough and unknowledgeable enough that I have a personal suspicion that his teacher is a fraud.... so let's get to the bottom of it, if you think asking is an OK thing to do and isn't rude.

If you'll notice, I personally try to stick to issues and don't ask about someone's "credentials" (in Skaggs' case, yours, and Chalks, I'm making a special exception, which I warned about ahead of time) because they shouldn't be needed. None of the discussions to date have necessitate knowing someone's antecedents... only their knowledge. In your case, you don't know much about a particularly focused subject, yet you have repeatedly used Mochizuki's name as proof that you are "credentialed". Now your own personal lack of knowledge, coupled with your numerous saddling of your expertise onto Mochizuki has demonstrated *exactly* why this call for "credentials" is something you enter at your own peril.

Same with the name calling. Mochizuki is such a jerk that he produced a self-aborbed know-nothing like you???? See, what I mean? It is better to argue the issue. Not really surprisingly, a lot of the "peace and love" crowd are, as I noted before, really just disguised role-players who stand revealed at the first sign their egos aren't taken seriously.

Skaggs? Chalk?

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman

08-30-2006, 02:34 PM

Unless I am mistaken the worst I have said about you isYou went personal, Skaggs, and compounded it to relating it to "credentials". Your teacher's name? It looks like the things I said bothered you and weren't what your teacher taught you, so I'd be willing to assert that your teacher doesn't know much. What is his name, as long as we're getting personal?

Mike Sigman

statisticool

08-30-2006, 03:00 PM

I don't evade, David. Show me the point why something is being asked and, if it's germane, I will respond.

Is providing the title of a book you claim exists that says qi is best translated as ground strength, germane?

You claimed masters were not allowed to challenge Zheng Manqing. Where's your evidence for that?

And many, many more claims.

Out of the blue questions of "what are your credentials" are simply rude and beg to be asked back.

Walter, you were the one who requested to start a thread about you on credentials. Remember?

...I'm waiting for this separate thread on "Aikido Credentials" with bated breath. Should be easy to clear up my credentials...

Moving on.

Skaggs has been rude enough and unknowledgeable enough that I have a personal suspicion that his teacher is a fraud....

Your reasons don't make sense. Someone is rude, therefore you think their teacher is a fraud. LOL.

But a non-teacher, saying a teacher is a fraud..Kinda like when you talk about Judo with someone like Ben Holmes, who is actually referenced in judo book, practices for over 30 years, and still teaches. Your comments are hardly logical their either.

Justin

Ron Tisdale

08-30-2006, 03:09 PM

Mike Sigman

08-30-2006, 03:20 PM

Actually, what happened is that someone asked about Mike's aikido credentials in a non-aikido thread...THEN Mike said if you want to know about that, open a new thread and he would answer.

You have mis-characterized what occurred. And since the conversations are archived, I can only assume that you did so intentionally.I dunno. This guy "Justin" is a complete whack job or a put-up job (don't forget that Stephen J. Goodson is a computer guy and their bizarre personalities are quite similar. They both are in the D.C. area, etc.).

Someone who deeply researches everything I've said and instead of asking perinent questions only asks for "proof" and "source".... this is pretty certifiable behavior.

OTOH, I have to admit that seeing someone openly displaying exactly the kind of personality trait that many of us privately consider pure "Cheng Man Ching'er" is sort of nice. It's like someone volunteering to do a dirty job. ;)

I'm surprised that Jun has let him get by this long, though. Stan would have bounced him from AJ almost immediately, I think. Particularly with this stalking thing. Does anyone here seriously think that "Justin Smith" is on AikiWeb for anything other than to follow me around from thread to thread trying to express some sort of fixation?

Any computer guys want to track him down?

FWIW

Mike

Mark Gibbons

08-30-2006, 04:05 PM

Mike, dps has his dojo and teacher in his profile. Has since you asked for them. I don't see why he would repost them.

Mark

David Orange

08-30-2006, 04:13 PM

Now your own personal lack of knowledge, coupled with your numerous saddling of your expertise onto Mochizuki has demonstrated *exactly* why this call for "credentials" is something you enter at your own peril.

Life is peril, Mike. I'm used to it. But the particular tone of this repeated phrase sounds as if you've been getting some PMs from some of the same people who fed Ken McGrew the baloney that he had to end up eating. If I'm wrong, excuse me. If not, don't take the bait and let them use you as another patsy for things they won't say, themselves, on a public forum.

Mochizuki is such a jerk that he produced a self-aborbed know-nothing like you????

It's true I was not worthy of the gifts he gave, but few people are.

Not really surprisingly, a lot of the "peace and love" crowd are, as I noted before, really just disguised role-players who stand revealed at the first sign their egos aren't taken seriously.

Surely you aren't lumping me into the "peace and love" crowd? I would like to promote peace and love but, as you can see, I'm not too good at it. In fact, I've taken more dirty shots in training from the fluffy bunny types than I have from hard workers. On the other hand, I didn't retaliate, so maybe I am a peace and love type. What are you? Turmoil and hatred?

Best to you.

David

David Orange

08-30-2006, 04:16 PM

Mike, dps has his dojo and teacher in his profile. Has since you asked for them. I don't see why he would repost them.

Mark

Also, I don't recall if he named his teacher, but he did post an outline of his training history. On this same thread, I think.

David

David Orange

08-30-2006, 04:19 PM

Actually, what happened is that someone asked about Mike's aikido credentials in a non-aikido thread...THEN Mike said if you want to know about that, open a new thread and he would answer.

Ron, as I recall, Justin made some comments about tai chi on the pushhands thread and Mike demanded his credentials. And Justin asked what Mike's aikido credentials were, seeing that that had come up on other threads. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And since I had asked Mike about his aikido background (not "credentials", BTW--just where, how long and with whom) I decided to open this thread when Mike basically demanded it.

All I ever wanted to know was "where, how long and with whom".

Good night.

David

statisticool

08-30-2006, 06:00 PM

I dunno. This guy "Justin" is a complete whack job or a put-up job (don't forget that Stephen J. Goodson is a computer guy and their bizarre personalities are quite similar. They both are in the D.C. area, etc.).

Face it, some people disagree with your non-majority points and have no problems telling you and others about it, and telling you again and again when you bring up your non-majority points as if they are fact.

But maybe me, Goodson, Holmes, Orange, and everyone else who disagrees with you are the same person. (cue scary music)

Someone who deeply researches everything I've said ...

Translation: did a 2 min Google, follows links others have provided, reads threads on aikiweb, is familiar from reading other boards with Sigman's behavior.

Does anyone here seriously think that "Justin Smith" is on AikiWeb for anything other than to follow me around ..

I try to point out bias, disagreements, sources, and ask questions wherever I go. If those happen to be your threads, that is not my issue. Also, if you directly ask me questions or talk about me, please don't play dumb and accuse me of stalking after I respond to you.

Justin

gdandscompserv

08-30-2006, 07:36 PM

Back on topic...
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/deserthippie/shodan001.jpg
One of the more special documents I am in possession of.
:D

Gernot Hassenpflug

08-30-2006, 08:06 PM

Honorary member of the, wait, ... it's not the usual reading ... Super Wakamono Massage Kurabu, with extra credits ???? I can see why it's "special" for you, mate :D

That aside, congrats on your grade!

gdandscompserv

08-30-2006, 08:47 PM

It's not the grade silly. Nor is it the document itself.
It's what the document helps me to remember. I earned the rank under the tutelage of Yamaguchi Sensei, a truly wonderful man with exquisite aikido. The memories are worth more than any document.
Still, it is one of the coolest documents I own. :D

Gernot Hassenpflug

08-30-2006, 08:52 PM

Well, I hope you have your Aikido passport -- that would have Yamaguchi shihan's signature in it. The certificate is given out by the Aikikai, and therefore signed by Kisshomaru Ueshiba in your case. I agree, the memories make it. I'm sure I still have my certificates somewhere, but I can't seem to remember where...

gdandscompserv

08-30-2006, 08:59 PM

Well, I hope you have your Aikido passport -- that would have Yamaguchi shihan's signature in it
Of course I do. :D

Guilty Spark

08-31-2006, 02:28 AM

Having aikido experience isn't a requirement to post on here I'm guessing but in all fairness if someone (in general) is going to talk ABOUT aikido and make references etc.. then they should, when asked, provide credentials or experience. It's only fair and probably goes a long way towards sorting out solid advice from experience and people using second and third hand information.

gdandscompserv

08-31-2006, 12:25 PM

Am I the only weirdo who has scanned his/her rank certificate?

Ron Tisdale

08-31-2006, 12:33 PM

Nope. But I don't post mine... ;)

Best,
Ron (not that there's anything wrong with that...)

gdandscompserv

08-31-2006, 12:45 PM

Nope. But I don't post mine... ;)

Best,
Ron (not that there's anything wrong with that...)
Which begs my next questions...
Am I the only weirdo to have posted one?
And is it considered "bad form" to do so?

gdandscompserv

08-31-2006, 07:41 PM

I'm such a thread killer.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/deserthippie/dunno.gif

Gernot Hassenpflug

08-31-2006, 07:57 PM

At the very least you could have Photoshopped (or GIMPed) it to elevate yourself
to the rank of jodan :-)

gdandscompserv

08-31-2006, 08:23 PM

I must confess to some "retouching," since my scanner wasn't big enough. I scanned it in 3 slices and fitted them back together as best I could. As a result, some of the strokes aren't as nice as the original. That document serves as a nice "wallpaper" on my computer though.

David Orange

08-31-2006, 09:24 PM

At the very least you could have Photoshopped (or GIMPed) it to elevate yourself
to the rank of jodan :-)

When I got my judo shodan, the examiners asked if I wanted the certificate in Japanese or English. I said, "Japanese, please...and...could you make that a godan?"

Needless to say, they didn't.

Best wishes.

David

David Orange

08-31-2006, 09:25 PM

...some of the strokes aren't as nice as the original...

Very nice calligraphy, though.

David

Gernot Hassenpflug

08-31-2006, 10:03 PM

Ricky, that rocks! I thnk I'll post some certificates I've picked up. Time to scan tonight. One clue though: maybe it won't be exactly like yours :lol:

Joe Bowen

09-01-2006, 05:32 AM

Which begs my next questions...
Am I the only weirdo to have posted one? And is it considered "bad form" to do so?

Ricky, you're not alone....my certificates are scanned as well and if you go over to Aikido Journal.com there is a personalities feature that, while not requiring it, allows for people to post their certificates and/or credentials along with a short paragraph about themselves. And, believe me, many have participated....(myself included ;) )

joe

gdandscompserv

09-01-2006, 06:26 AM

Nice scan Joseph.
Now I want to scan mine again.
I need to find a bigger scanner.
At least I don't feel like such a weirdo now. :D
I'm glad you posted. I was first taught aikido by a young man serving in the military;Michael Veltri Sensei (http://www.oki-aikikai.com/instructorinfo.html).
Seeing your picture reminded me of him.
Thank You.

Taliesin

09-04-2006, 06:13 AM

To Mike Sigman

You're right I haven't posted my Aikido Credentials since my normal posts are generally on political matters. Apparently anyone's 'credentials' have to satisfy you before their view is worthy of consideration.

For myself I judge your opinions and arguments sole on their 'merits' (to use the term loosely).

But before you start accusing me of avoiding the (irrelevant) question

The organization I train with is the

Shudokan Institute of Aikido International

I train at the

Nottingham Dojo

My Sensei is Sensei Ken Robson

And since you suspect that Sensei Ken doesn't "really know anything about Aikido" I' ll leave you with the Dojo website:

http://www.shudokan.info/

As far as personal attacks are concerned if you can't take the knocks don't dish them out. (Old Rugby Philosophy)

Mike Sigman

09-04-2006, 07:28 AM

My Sensei is Sensei Ken Robson

And since you suspect that Sensei Ken doesn't "really know anything about Aikido" I' ll leave you with the Dojo website:

http://www.shudokan.info/
I don't see any sign that he knows anything at all. His credentials seem to have to do with his military service. Let's ask him to explain the Kokyu power that Ushiro Sensei teaches. I'll bet he can't do it, since he's your teacher. Wanna bet? Let's disparage your teacher for a while. Let him know that you've starting a pissing contest on reputations and that now his name is entered. If you can't show fairly quickly that *you* have learned something worthwhile, then that puts his reputation at risk. Good, now let's play "credentials".[/QUOTE]As far as personal attacks are concerned if you can't take the knocks don't dish them out. (Old Rugby Philosophy)[/QUOTE]Tell your instructor the same thing. If he can't take the knocks, he shouldn't have his students out there arbitrarily knocking others.

Mike Sigman

Taliesin

09-05-2006, 06:39 AM

Mike

Even by your own standards that is low. You asked for my Sensei's details. I gave them I even gave you the web address for you to check for yourself and suddenly you want to say " Let him know that you've starting a pissing contest on reputations and that now his name is entered".

And you state "Let's disparage your teacher for a while." I haven't disparaged yours. I figure your opinion is your own and you are strong enough to stand up for it (i do apologies for my mistake)

" Tell your instructor the same thing. If he can't take the knocks, he shouldn't have his students out there arbitrarily knocking others."

I can therefore only conclude that you believe that you (and only you) are justified on making personal attacks on others - anyone who makes a personal attack on you is "arbitrarily knocking others". Given that, by definition, I cannot both 'arbitrarily knocking others' (I don't) and be specifically picking on you, the most charitable interpretation is that you are using a word you do not understand the meaning of.

You also seem to feel that because I attack you and your arguments you are therefore entitled to attack my Sensei - who has nothing to do with our discussion about something that has nothing to with the discussions I post on.

As far as your statement

"If he can't take the knocks, he shouldn't have his students out there arbitrarily knocking others".

A few observations

1. He hasn't dished out any knocks to you at all.

2. He doesn't "have" his students out there arbitrarily knocking others. Leaving aside your ignorance of the word arbitrary, my criticism of you , is exactly that, mine. So perhaps you are suggesting that my Sensei should stop me criticizing you. (Perhaps you'd like to tell my mummy that I'm bullying you as well)

Anyway I'm off on holiday in a few days so I can't reply any further. Which is very well as you have taken matters way too low for me to keep up with (and I do Immigration and Asylum Law!)

Mike Sigman

09-05-2006, 06:57 AM

You also seem to feel that because I attack you and your arguments you are therefore entitled to attack my Sensei - who has nothing to do with our discussion about something that has nothing to with the discussions I post on.Hmmmm... it appears that you think that there are certain rules for personally attacking others and that you are the one who makes those rules. No. When it comes to personal attacks, if that's the way you want to go, then don't be surprised when you open the door and all sorts of things come out.

I've seen nothing in your posts to show you know the first thing about basic Aikido. Therefore your teacher, KEN ROBSON, must not know anything. I'll bet he's a good fighter and karate guy (says it in his bio) and therefore he thinks that makes him knowledgeable about Aikido. I doubt it and frankly, I'd bet money, sight unseen, that he doesn't have a clue about use of kokyu power, ki breathing, etc. for great power. Brings into question whether he really should be teaching, eh?

Tell him to join on and let's debate Aikido basics. Tell him that his name and reputation are now fair game since you like to get it to the personal level in public posts. Ask him to post how "moving from the hara" works.

Looking at his martial arts resume' for his Aikido dojo, I'm appalled... why would he add all that unnecessary military garbage as part of his Aikido credentials? Heck, I did things in the military, too, including hand-to-hand actual fights against the enemy instead of flying over them.... would never dream of posting something like that on the gateway to a dojo website as part of my credentials. But what they hey.... let's have it out. You guys that like to keep going for the personal need to see why it's a bad idea, so let's use Ken Robson as an example of why the personal can be a bad idea.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

statisticool

09-05-2006, 07:16 AM

Mike Sigman

09-05-2006, 07:24 AM

David, it is just some peoples' style, that if they cannot argue rationally, they will drag in everything associated, even tangentially, with the person (and not the martial arts topic) they are having difficulty arguing with, in the hopes to 'shame' them into no longer participating.

Just keep responding in a relaxed and logical manner and witness their predictable uncontrollable increased agitation with the amusement that it deserves. :)BTW, Justin... you didn't answer my question about why so many people jumped you for your bizarre stalking, like in this post of yours where you're still following me around. Do you think everyone else is nuts, or do you see that you're still just a nut-case who stalks Mike Sigman???? And you've never answered the question about why you have this compulsion, Justin. What is it that makes you research all my past interviews and comments, characterizing them whimsically, etc., to post on an Aikido list?

And I realize that you've been trying to give the impression that you were first looking for a dojo (asking for advice) and now that you are taking Aikido.... but somehow, I doubt it's true. I think it's a game you'r playing. Where are you taking Aikido, Justin? I suspect you're just playing a charade to help justify why you're stalking someone who didn't accept Cheng Man Ching as a god. Tell us who your teacher is and where you take.

Mike Sigman

statisticool

09-05-2006, 09:40 AM

Opinions of peoples' martial arts activities don't hold weight, or have a bearing on the debate.

Justin

James Davis

09-05-2006, 10:55 AM

Hmmmm... it appears that you think that there are certain rules for personally attacking others and that you are the one who makes those rules. No. When it comes to personal attacks, if that's the way you want to go, then don't be surprised when you open the door and all sorts of things come out.

How about nobody does it? It's wasting time when we could be learning something.

I've seen nothing in your posts to show you know the first thing about basic Aikido. Therefore your teacher, KEN ROBSON, must not know anything. I'll bet he's a good fighter and karate guy (says it in his bio)

Our posts don't really tell us anything at all about each other, really. If one visits Sensei Robson and finds that he doesn't know anything about aikido, then they should talk to the guy who made him a sixth dan! His bio tells me that he was a pretty good pilot.

Tell him to join on and let's debate Aikido basics. Tell him that his name and reputation are now fair game since you like to get it to the personal level in public posts. Ask him to post how "moving from the hara" works.

Who has attacked anyone's Sensei, so far? Did I miss it?

Looking at his martial arts resume' for his Aikido dojo, I'm appalled... why would he add all that unnecessary military garbage as part of his Aikido credentials? Heck, I did things in the military, too, including hand-to-hand actual fights against the enemy instead of flying over them.... would never dream of posting something like that on the gateway to a dojo website as part of my credentials.

I probably wouldn't either. He has, however, engaged the enemy when his life (as well as the lives of others) was at stake. He was a hand-to-hand instructor for the military. Even if his knowledge isn't so specific as one might desire, he does have something to offer. He's had to make the decision to kill or be killed, and that's experience from which others might benefit.

C'mon, Mike. Leave Sensei Robson alone.

Taliesin

09-05-2006, 10:56 AM

Mike

My rules are that if you make personal attacks, you suffer personal attacks. If you don't you don't.

It's a basic principle of fairness

Your standards are clearly much lower which gives rise to questions as to either your Sensei's teaching of aiki principles or much more likely your complete failure to learn them.

As far as my understanding of Aikido I'll happily concede it's almost as limited as your understanding of fairness - but how do posts on political discussion reveal any understanding of Aikido?

As far as my Sensei is concerned. Perhaps he believes that Aikido is a MARTIAL ART and that military background is relevant particularly since he used Aikido. Perhaps the fact that he took part in genuine military actions means he has something to say about maintaining focus and effectiveness in a highly stressful and frightening environment.

I'm also impressed that you are prepared to accept he's a pretty good karate guy as a first Dan - but because you disagree with me as a 6th Dan - you don't think he's any good.

Perhaps he believes that the core part of a martial art is that it should be effective and his student should be able to use it effectively even when exhausted and scared - so that it will be a real help to them when they really need it. Perhaps he believes his background is highly relevant to that. Certainly he has emphasized a phenomenal commitment to all of his students (even me). And an equally great commitment to improving himself and his Aikido.

However if I as one of Sensei Robson's students am totally unqualified to sit in judgment - you are even less so.

You're posts however do remind me of an old movie definition of a snake - "a creature that crawls on its belly and thinks it's a king"

Mike Sigman

09-05-2006, 11:56 AM

My rules are that if you make personal attacks, you suffer personal attacks. If you don't you don't.

It's a basic principle of fairness Looking back at your posts, I would say that you suffer from extreme Self-Perception Disorder if you think other people are the one that start the personal stuff. Read on, to enjoy some of your particular venom: Your standards are clearly much lower which gives rise to questions as to either your Sensei's teaching of aiki principles or much more likely your complete failure to learn them.

As far as my understanding of Aikido I'll happily concede it's almost as limited as your understanding of fairness - but how do posts on political discussion reveal any understanding of Aikido?

As far as my Sensei is concerned. Perhaps he believes that Aikido is a MARTIAL ART and that military background is relevant particularly since he used Aikido. Perhaps the fact that he took part in genuine military actions means he has something to say about maintaining focus and effectiveness in a highly stressful and frightening environment.

I'm also impressed that you are prepared to accept he's a pretty good karate guy as a first Dan - but because you disagree with me as a 6th Dan - you don't think he's any good.

Perhaps he believes that the core part of a martial art is that it should be effective and his student should be able to use it effectively even when exhausted and scared - so that it will be a real help to them when they really need it. Perhaps he believes his background is highly relevant to that. Certainly he has emphasized a phenomenal commitment to all of his students (even me). And an equally great commitment to improving himself and his Aikido.

However if I as one of Sensei Robson's students am totally unqualified to sit in judgment - you are even less so.

You're posts however do remind me of an old movie definition of a snake - "a creature that crawls on its belly and thinks it's a king"Cool. Now ask him to post about the Aiki principles I was talking about. And I'm glad to hear the Aikido helps you pilot a plane.... I'll pass that along to my military pilot friends that it's some new wrinkle a few UK pilots used in combat runs.

Mike Sigman