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dps
08-27-2006, 12:32 PM
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?

Roman Kremianski
08-27-2006, 12:34 PM
Remember to use erm... protection.

Aiki x
08-27-2006, 01:21 PM
lol :)

statisticool
08-27-2006, 02:12 PM
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?

1) its defensive

2) you can hold on to facilitate a safer breakfall for the attacker

3) you're holding hands, thus reaching 1st base with the attacker

markwalsh
08-27-2006, 02:42 PM
When you tenkan you can can slap ukes rear with the other hand - a cheeky atemi.

Is this a serious question? Control not destruction would be my answer. I once put kote gaeshi on a drunk grieving friend who had got violent - no more harm done, just a little sore wrist and head the next day - there is the love as the black eyed peas said.

Erick Mead
08-27-2006, 03:24 PM
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed? To a surgeon -- it is love to cut off a finger -- to save the hand -- the hand, to save the arm -- the arm, to save the man.

Budo is love -- and those who practice budo must be just as brutal and as precise as the surgeon, clearly perceiving the danger with unsentimental necessity, and removing the source of danger, while leaving what is unoffending as untouched as his skill and the needs of circumstance allow. Aikido trains us in such skills, too make any attack unthreatening, and within our power to heal, or staunch at least, rather than merely to cut it off.

Kotgaeshi? -- Better to take his balance than his wrist, better his wrist than his elbow, better his elbow than his whole arm, and better them all than taking his head and his entire life with it.

dps
08-27-2006, 04:46 PM
Yes it is meant as a serious question, although a little humour never hurts ( wearing protection is not an expression of love, it is a way of paticipating while avoiding unwanted consequences). :)

Aikido is the art of peace, love, harmony. Shouldn't we be aware of these things as we practice Aikido techniques such as kotegaeshi ,express them in our movements, not just discuss them between practices.

To love you need to know how to hate, to have peace you need to know how to wage war, to harmonize you need to know how to disrupt . These are the things we practice when we do Aikido/kotegaeshi. We also practice control of our bodies, minds and spirits. We express our love, harmony, peaceful intent by our control. We should be like Erik's surgeon.

statisticool
08-27-2006, 07:04 PM
Also wear a pink gi, maybe sew on some hearts.

PeterR
08-27-2006, 07:27 PM
Well I just LOVE to do kotegaishi.

Mary Turner
08-27-2006, 07:40 PM
Also wear a pink gi, maybe sew on some hearts.

Great, Justin, now everybody knows about your Valentine's gi!

Mary

dps
08-27-2006, 08:54 PM
Kotgaeshi? -- Better to take his balance than his wrist, better his wrist than his elbow, better his elbow than his whole arm, and better them all than taking his head and his entire life with it.
With apologies to Eric I would add, better to take his life than he take the lives of others.

Mark Uttech
08-27-2006, 09:48 PM
kotegaeshi is something to study. You get to study the technique, you get to study uke's reaction (which could be different everytime), and you get to study how you handle the reaction.

In gassho
Mark

Erick Mead
08-27-2006, 10:19 PM
With apologies to Eric I would add, better to take his life than he take the lives of others. None needed.

Gernot Hassenpflug
08-27-2006, 10:46 PM
Be very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out!
- not my saying!

eyrie
08-28-2006, 12:53 AM
Quick, don't think of a pink elephant...

xuzen
08-28-2006, 02:01 AM
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?
You could always give uke some Tender Loving Care after the K_O_tegashi. :D

Boon.

MikeLogan
08-28-2006, 06:29 AM
maybe sew on some hearts

I would imagine it terribly inappropriate to have a heart on during practice. And to anyone missing the joke, read it out loud, unless you're at work.

tee-hee.

On the serous note, I find my kote gaeshi to be odd. While it brings people down, I have more the experience of suddenly stretching out uke into a prone position (Sounds weirder than it looks) than being able to illicit a break fall. I believe it has to do with a deficiency in tenkan throughout the technique. They always go down, but it's not as slam-bam thank you mam as it could be. Maybe mine is the lovey-dovey version you're looking for David?

Irimi tenkan off line to the outside of tsuki (for descriptions sake), but instead of the full second tenkan with the throw, I have the habit of stepping perpendicularly away from the line of attack during the throw. It's like a part turn, but not a full tenkan, and while it stretches them out to the point of backfalling, it doesn't twist them up enough for a breakfall.

Just thought I'd toss that out for analysis. My brain is pretty sure that's the reasoning behind my wimpy kote gaeshi, but my body is not quite there yet.

michael.

dps
08-28-2006, 07:30 AM
e. Maybe mine is the lovey-dovey version you're looking for David?
I am not looking for a lovey-dovey version of kotegaeshi or any Aikido technique. :) The techniques of Aikido like kotegaeshi were intended to disable an opponent by dislocation or breaking the wrist,elbow,shoulder so that he could be killed or unable to fight anymore. We do not practice kotegaeshi this way now, but the dangers of injury in practice is still there if nage does not practice kotegaeshi the way he/she was taught to. There are variations to kotegaeshi that can result in injury in practice or even worse if used outside the dojo against someone who does not know ukemi. It is the control that nage learns and uses that prevents the injuries. In practice why do you use that control so you don't hurt uke? Isn't learning a technique that can seriously injure or kill someone but practicing it in a way not to the basic, beginning way to express the love O'Sensei talked about?

MikeLogan
08-28-2006, 07:56 AM
In practice why do you use that control, so you don't hurt uke? Isn't learning a technique that can seriously injure or kill someone but practicing it in a way not to, the basic, beginning way to express the love O'Sensei talked about? Umm, I think so. I was just being facetious, I shouldn't use terms like that outside of expressing humor. I meant something more along the lines of how you ended your post. The humane approach to neutralization, though if you can't choose every technical option, than you might not be able to make humane behaviour an option anyhow, which is why I need to work on my kote gaeshi.

dps
08-28-2006, 08:26 AM
which is why I need to work on my kote gaeshi.
As you are working on your kotegaeshi don't think of pink elephants in pink gis with hearts sewn on. :) :)

ChrisMoses
08-28-2006, 09:46 AM
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?


What kind of love? Ever research what word OSensei was using that got translated to love? There are several. And in what context was it said? Japanese is very contextual, so you have to look at how he said it, where he said it and who he said it to. Just throwing that out there.

Robert Rumpf
08-28-2006, 11:02 AM
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?

Love is expressed throughout the execution of kotegaeshi.

Rob

dps
08-28-2006, 11:05 AM
What kind of love? Compassion and charity.

Gernot Hassenpflug
08-28-2006, 05:03 PM
Love is expressed throughout the execution of kotegaeshi.

Love is expressed throughout the execution. :D

ian
08-29-2006, 05:19 AM
...Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?

Aikido is not just the execution of its techniques. If you go up to a stranger and just perform kote-gaeshi it is not an expression of love. However, if someone attacks you, and instead of breaking their wrist or pummeling their face, you perform a non-lethal and non-permanently damaging technique which still allows them to complete their attack - you are expressing at least a caring atitude for your attacker (whilst protecting your own interests).

Idealistic, I'd agree. I haven't quite reached the capability of Ueshiba, so personally my real-life kote-gaeshi may be sub-standard in its ability to express love :)

eyrie
08-29-2006, 05:46 AM
Well, if the "line" is right, you can take em down pretty much instantly, without them ever completing their attack, and without breaking their wrist. I'm not sure about non-lethal though... once they're down, they're pretty much screwed, coz shoulder crank and elbow dislocation is next... depending on how much lovin' I got the nite before. ;)

Eric Cyr
08-30-2006, 09:42 AM
Kote-Gaeshi

If you think about it the use of Kote-Gaeshi was mainly derived from the disarmament of an attacker who was intent on taking your life. Usually involving a Katana or Tanto and I'm sure an assortment of weapons including empty hand but I'm sure not so often. You could say, I chose not to break his arm or his wrist or cut him in half but stopped him and his intention and hopefully gave him the opportunity to change his ways.

O-Sensei

I think what he meant was the original intent of Budo is to cultivate and promote Compassion and brotherly love and harmonious spirit that is why martial arts where created. To save lives not take them, it's not enough to stop someone from hurting you but to respond with Evil is not the way. Evil begets Evil.

dps
08-30-2006, 10:39 AM
Kote-Gaeshi

If you think about it the use of Kote-Gaeshi was mainly derived from the disarmament of an attacker who was intent on taking your life. Usually involving a Katana or Tanto and I'm sure an assortment of weapons including empty hand but I'm sure not so often. You could say, I chose not to break his arm or his wrist or cut him in half but stopped him and his intention and hopefully gave him the opportunity to change his ways.

O-Sensei

I think what he meant was the original intent of Budo is to cultivate and promote Compassion and brotherly love and harmonious spirit that is why martial arts where created. To save lives not take them, it's not enough to stop someone from hurting you but to respond with Evil is not the way. Evil begets Evil. Thank You Eric. Where did you get that quote from?

Eric Cyr
08-30-2006, 08:14 PM
Thank You Eric. Where did you get that quote from?

I was voicing my opinion. You will find if you ask yourself, the answers will come, you just have to ask the yourself the right questions. I'm sure you already know the answer you just have to search inside youself a little. How does Kote-Gaishi make you feel, David? How do you feel when you practice Aikido?