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Princess Rose
08-16-2006, 12:48 AM
Just wondering if other women in Aikido experience this. Sometimes when I practice with guys from other dojos they don’t want to throw me very hard or hit me when I’m open. This wouldn’t bother me except I notice that they don’t hold back for the guys. Everyone in my dojo has no problem throwing me in hip throes or smacking me good ones right across the face because they know I can take it and in most cases will do the same for my partners. Is there something I should do about this or should I just not let it annoy me? You know “To be or not to be? That is the question”

Yann Golanski
08-16-2006, 02:22 AM
I found that a "you punch like a girl" or other silly comments said in a silly tone do the trick. Have a laugh about it, get back to practice.

Or start by being tori and don't hold back. By the time they have taken ten breakfalls they'll want to paste you into the ground too. *grins evilly*

shadowedge
08-16-2006, 05:23 AM
I found that a "you punch like a girl" or other silly comments said in a silly tone do the trick. Have a laugh about it, get back to practice.

Yeah that should do the trick! :p

4 of my kohai are ladies. I tell them upfront that I won't holdback unless they ask me to do so. And during practice I usually ask them if I was to hard or not enough, then I adjust till we're at a comfortable level. :)

Don_Modesto
08-16-2006, 07:00 AM
CAVEAT EMPTOR.

I hold back at first and build up to speed depending on reaction.

I've had plenty of women (and some men) ask me not to be strong before we even began training.

I was training with one woman who was quite vocal on taking it as much as the guys, and then threw a punch at me in anger when I actually treated her like one of the guys. It was the only time 30 years' of training that someone had swung at me in anger.

Amelia Smith
08-16-2006, 07:18 AM
Like Don, I prefer to start slow and build up speed/intensity as I get a feel for my training partner and the technique.

I haven't had much of a problem with weak attacks (because I'm a girl) lately, but then having the black belt and hakama helps with that some. Of course I still get a few weak attacks, but I feel like usually that's the uke's problem, that he/she is someone who just generally doesn't attack very well. So I think this problem tends to go away on its own (gradually, haltingly, with some backsliding) as you advance in the ranks and are recognised as a more senior student.

Eric Webber
08-16-2006, 10:30 AM
We have several women who practice with us, and while I don't necessarily hit them as hard as I do some of the larger guys practicing with us (couple of 6+ footers that weigh in at 200+ lbs.), I do train with the women as hard as I think they can possibly take it in that particular evening. (Though there is one or two I hit pretty darn hard! :p )I am referring to both throws and atemi waza.

With any training partner that I am not familiar with, I will always hold back a little to see what and how much he or she can and/or wants to take. I learned early that, regardless if it's a man or woman, if you stand in the way of the strike, it's probably gonna hurt; and if you patronize, it's probably gonna hurt more :D .

Trish Greene
08-16-2006, 11:33 AM
I tend to go harder on the guys just to show them at what level I am willing to work at. I only have one of the guys that works with me really softly, but I haven't trained with him that much. When I do work with him, I praise him "Thanks for showing me how to work softly and blend, it helps me concentrate on my form"...

markwalsh
08-16-2006, 12:19 PM
The other side of this has started to piss me off: Powerful female yudansha who insist on slamming it on!

Me: "I ain't got nothing to prove to you lady, so how about returning the favor and easing up on the damn nikkyo already! It works, I get it!"

How do I put that more politely?

Ron Tisdale
08-16-2006, 12:37 PM
I don't think you can put it politely, Mark. The few times I've seen that, the one side wanted to do all the dishing, and none of the taking (to be clear, I've seen this with guys too...).

Best,
Ron

Trish Greene
08-16-2006, 01:05 PM
ACK! I feel like I have to rephrase my posting!

When I work out with the guys, it gives me an opportunity to work a little bit harder and to feel the flow of the move we are practicing. I typically get paired up with the teenage kids and don't get the attack committments that an adult will give me.

(whew)

Pauliina Lievonen
08-16-2006, 01:25 PM
The other side of this has started to piss me off: Powerful female yudansha who insist on slamming it on!

Me: "I ain't got nothing to prove to you lady, so how about returning the favor and easing up on the damn nikkyo already! It works, I get it!"

How do I put that more politely?I thought that sounded perfect Mark. :D

kvaak
Pauliina

markwalsh
08-16-2006, 01:36 PM
To be clear here: I'm wasn't commenting on one individual post before - it just sparked the thought. Also I'm referring to cruel/brutal training as opposed to hard/intense training which I love :-)

Actually that might make an interesting thread - what's the difference between the two?

Lan Powers
08-16-2006, 01:55 PM
To be clear here: I'm wasn't commenting on one individual post before - it just sparked the thought. Also I'm referring to cruel/brutal training as opposed to hard/intense training which I love :-)

Actually that might make an interesting thread - what's the difference between the two?


The love part..... :ai:
Lan

Charles Hill
08-16-2006, 07:28 PM
Hi Rosemary,

I highly recommend the book "Aikido in America" in which Mary Heiny describes going through the same experiences you are having. You might even want to look into attending one of her seminars, she's a wonderful teacher and very approachable.

Charles

Don_Modesto
08-16-2006, 08:27 PM
....look into attending one of her seminars, she's a wonderful teacher and very approachable.CharlesI second that. She's terrific.

Brad Pruitt
08-16-2006, 11:40 PM
I third that as I find her amazing.

As for attacking anyone I personally just feel them out as the technique goes and adjust as we train. There are a lot of guys I will hold back on more than some of the woman because of the lack of connection I feel. I try to come on with a very committed attack and sense if I need to pull back a bit because someone is not quite ready. Mostly everyone ( including myself ) appreciate a committed attack.

Princess Rose
08-16-2006, 11:43 PM
Cool thanks for all the input guys! I loved reading all the comments. This does spark some really interesting new threads especially the concept of the girls who want to prove themselves by cranking up the nikkyo (I don’t want it to ever come to that). I am starting to understand how people go light until they get warmed up to you. I just would like to make sure that everyone is treated equally. As a teenage girl in Aikido I sometimes have interesting dynamics with older guys. To be honest this string was inspired by a comment by a beginner of “But I wouldn’t want to hurt that pretty face.” I don’t think any face should be hurt weather it is pretty (certainly not mine) or an old ugly mug. For other people dealing with this something I have been working on is my presence (whatever that means for you). And I will continue to appreciate the guy in my dojo who constantly hits kicks and chokes me whenever I mess up (I mess up a lot but I learn every time).

Yann Golanski
08-17-2006, 02:01 AM
Me: "I ain't got nothing to prove to you lady, so how about returning the favor and easing up on the damn nikkyo already! It works, I get it!"
How do I put that more politely?

Dude, the same way as before: "man, I'm a big girl stop hurting me!!!".

Humour works way better than anger in general.

happysod
08-17-2006, 02:11 AM
Dude, the same way as before although this blatant use of the word "dude" should be grounds for an immediate and immoderate pasting, I second Yanns emphasis on the use of humour - if you can smile through a bad nikyo, the dojo smiles with you (or at, I'm never fully sure)

Yann Golanski
08-17-2006, 04:54 AM
"Physically imposible Mr Hurst. But you're welcome to try. Anywhere. Anytime."

Bonus points for whoever can tell me where the quote originally comes from -- NO google-ing allowed, that's too easy.

happysod
08-17-2006, 07:45 AM
Physically imposible Mr Hurst. But you're welcome to try. Anywhere. Anytime am I being threatened here or propositioned? (typical shodothug, the poor things are always confused about their aikidoexuality). As for the quotes providence, sounds like a Martini ad. (anytime, anyplace anywhere... it still tastes like mouthwash)

Mark Freeman
08-17-2006, 08:09 AM
am I being threatened here or propositioned?

Ian, you know our friends from up north have quite an agressive set of chat up lines, so the answer to the above question is probably both. ;)

ian
08-17-2006, 08:48 AM
Pretty much it can be a matter of judgement - if you think someone won't actually move fast enough out of the way you'll pull your punches somewhat.

I make a special effort to be very aggressive towards women in the dojo since men tend to have more experience of real fights and know how even just the projected hatred from an attacker can be incapacitating. Responding well to hard attacks is an important skill - tell 'em if they are not fulfilling their obligaions as uke!

cserrit
08-17-2006, 03:57 PM
My response is usually..."Don't worry...I won't break!" That usually breaks any tension and relays the fact that they don't need to treat me differently. Generally, they tend to relax and "do" the technique rather than worry about whether they are going to hurt me.

:eek:

-C

Apoy
08-18-2006, 12:02 AM
I remember as a Kyu grade I took it easy on this Samoan girl when we were doing tsuki kote gaeshi. She got annoyed with me and punched me fair and square on the chest to show me how it is supposed to be done. I felt her full body and hip punch on my solar plexus...I had a moment afterwards.

Since then I always tski with full intention but with varied power.

Steve Mullen
08-18-2006, 07:51 AM
Can't hit a girl.....

........Why not? Seriously tho. I think a lot of people loose the fact that this is a martial art after all. there is a chance you will get hit at some point in your training. If you teel yourself from the off

A) You will probably get hit at some point

and

B) its probably going to be off a higher grade

Then you aren't supprised when it happens and instead of thinking oh poo i got hit what a supprise, you can think Why did i get hit, and how can i stop it happening again. Therefore, by not trainig as hard/directly with a woman as you would with a bloke you are taking that preparation away from them.

So in conclusion.....hit a girl.....try it.....you may even like it ;)

Karen Wolek
08-18-2006, 08:58 AM
"Please try to hit me. If I do get hit, it's my own fault!"

I'm 2nd kyu, getting ready for 1st kyu. I often tell guys (usually noobs) to hit me. Sensei will tell them to hit me. "She's tough, she can take it. She's 2nd kyu, try to hit her. She'll get out of the way."

It's next to impossible to execute most techniques if uke stops their strike a foot away from nage.

"Really....try to actually HIT me."

It's funny when they say, "Okaaaay..." with that look that says "OK, if you want me to, but you'll be sorry..." Ha. The point is I won't LET them hit me. ;)

James Davis
08-18-2006, 10:26 AM
I felt her full body and hip punch on my solar plexus...I had a moment afterwards.


Was that a moment, or a movement? :D

Apoy
08-23-2006, 12:49 AM
Oh it was a 'moment' indeed. A moment to a)gather my breath b)gather my remaining pride. :eek:

CitoMaramba
08-23-2006, 04:31 AM
I always give the tori a sincere attack, regardless of gender. If they ask me to tone it down, I comply.
When I am tori I also don't hold back in the technique unless requested. I remember one time while visiting another dojo, we were having modified jiyu-waza in groups. In this practice, tori stands in the middle while 4 ukes take turns doing yokomen uchi in quick succession. Tori responds with any technique. When I was attacked by a petite female white belt, I automatically responded with koshi nage, and because of her lightness she was hoisted somewhere around my upper back rather than on my hips. I was about to let her take a high breakfall when the dojo-cho rushed forward saying "No! She can't do high breakfalls yet!" I stopped in mid technique and let her down gently. As soon as she touched ground she tried to kick me with a mawashi geri, which I quickly dodged. I performed no more koshi nage that day...

Ewan Wilson
08-23-2006, 06:47 AM
Surely it comes from the fact that as children, boys are taught not to hit girls, unless they are from a very dubious family or sect. It takes a while to untrain yourself from what has become natural, i.e. to hold back.

All that is needed ladies is to ask if they would go a little harder. It always goes down well.