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Aiki x
08-10-2006, 09:58 AM
There are numerous kokyu nages. Are they actual techniques that would work in real life or are they drills for developing timing?

Many kokyu nages seem to rely on a willingness by Uke to fall. Techniques that don't require Uke to jump require attacks that are so over committed that they are unrealistic. (i.e. Uke is practically falling over)

For example the kokyu nage that involves dropping to your knees and throwing an opponent who has grabbed both your hands. Try doing that technique on a Judoka or a beginner. It just won't work. I still practise it, but I try and see it as a drill rather than a technique.

What do you guys think? I know I am generalising.

Ron Tisdale
08-10-2006, 10:13 AM
I think that without the ability to raise uke's center the waza described becomes a timing exercise. In other words, if you can not connect with uke's center in a way that steals their power, and that takes their balance upwards first (before the 'duck under'), your sucsess is dependant on timing the throw to such a precision that the throw becomes not very practical.

However, if you can raise uke just like in kokyu ho dosa keiko, where you absorb their power to push into you, and raise their center before throwing, then you can find ways to really use this throw. Lot's to practice.

If you want to base this throw more on timing, try using it as the 3rd or 4th throw in jiyu waza...after you've pounded uke a bit ;) enter early offering the hands before they settle their weight...then just keep entering with the arms doing an omega sign lifting them up slightly, then drop and let them ride the wave. :)

Best,
Ron

markwalsh
08-10-2006, 10:13 AM
Opinion:
Training tool for most of us.
The only thing that really works in the end.

mjchip
08-10-2006, 10:18 AM
Hi Neil,

As a datapoint, I spent the past week or so teaching various kokyunage from shomenuchi. We probably covered 25+ different variations. None of them required an uke with a "willingness to fall" in order to work.

It is true that there are some kokyu nage from grabbing attacks that require uke to give a committed grab [in the dojo] for you to be able to practice them.

However, in a practical scenario, if the attacker begins to grab but does not commit to the grab or senses nage's movement and lets go that's fine. As nage begins to move to achieve kuzushi and uke lets go, nage should be in a safe position with good posture and be ready to deal with uke's continuing attack. I would call this a success if nage didn't actually get grabbed. There doesn't have to be a throw and nage shouldn't be concerned with/fixated on any particular outcome.

Back to training *basic* kata, uke is expected to always give a committed attack be it grab, kick, punch, or strike. At a more advanced level, I like to work with uncommitted attacks as well (i.e. feints, setups, etc.). I also like to practice cases where nage initiates the physical portion of the encounter and basically takes advantage of uke's reaction to throw/lock/pin/strike/choke him/her.

I hope this helps answer your question......

In aiki spirit,

Mark Chiappetta

sullivanw
08-10-2006, 11:48 AM
My knee-jerk reaction is to say, "Yes, they do work," but I really don't have the experience...
How about this: If uke's balance isn't taken (and/or uke doen't stay connected), shouldn't nage be in a position where there is an immediate opportunity for atemi-waza? Maybe a different throw? While the kokyu nage may not work, wouldn't formal technique still set the stage for a viable self-defense?

-Will

Dirk Hanss
08-10-2006, 03:07 PM
Opinion:
Training tool for most of us.
The only thing that really works in the end.
Just my 2 cts, which I cannot proof as I am still not good enough.

I was told, in fact every throw is a kokyunage and works by kokyu power. Others explain kokyunage as "timing throw".

I would say it is timing and very sensitive reaction on uke's direction and extend of power. And that is, what all aikido technique is about. If you cannot do a kokyunage, you cannot survive against stronger faster and more flexible opponents. Then you are just doing Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus.

So it is a training tools to expand your sensitivity and adequate reaction and timing AND it is the only thing that works even with much less physical power.



Dirk

markwalsh
08-10-2006, 03:54 PM
Dirk - well put, that's what I meant to say :-)
I'd add (taken form my tecaher in the UK) that the crucial element in kokyu nage thorws is contact - ie that uke hangs on.
Incidentally if anyoen has seen Kanetsuka Sensei do kokyu nage and can explain what is going on I like to know, as what he does is WAY out of my league.

Upyu
08-10-2006, 04:03 PM
Do a search for "Ki" on this board, and you'll get more than enough info I think, if you can wade through the bickering.

I just put up an article about the basis for developing a body in a martial context (in the training section), and that stuff applies directly to developing "kokyu" power.

From my own experience I'm pretty sure that
a) its not timing
b) while breath can be used to help train it (from a physical perspective), it is not just the "breath"
c) it is a physical skill
d) you can train the body directly to develop this skill within 2 years if you know how.

Upyu
08-10-2006, 04:05 PM
Dirk - well put, that's what I meant to say :-)
I'd add (taken form my tecaher in the UK) that the crucial element in kokyu nage thorws is contact - ie that uke hangs on.
Incidentally if anyoen has seen Kanetsuka Sensei do kokyu nage and can explain what is going on I like to know, as what he does is WAY out of my league.

If your skill is good then it's not that Uke hangs on, he really is unable to let go ;)

markwalsh
08-10-2006, 04:11 PM
yeah - two versions of contact - I like the one you descibe.

Aristeia
08-10-2006, 04:27 PM
Absolutely they work. The don't require a commitment from uke to fall so much as a commitment to attack. I always viewed kokyu throws as the unbalancing part of the kihon waza done large enough that nothing further is needed. The implication of which being that if you don't get uke's balance with the kokyu enough to make them fall it should just flow into another waza.
If you cannot do a kokyunage, you cannot survive against stronger faster and more flexible opponents. Then you are just doing Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus.
curious as to what you mean by that?

markwalsh
08-10-2006, 04:36 PM
So there's an aikido bumper sticker with "Aikido - nothing works" on, and I've just relised you can read it two ways. Clever.

NagaBaba
08-10-2006, 07:43 PM
Kokyu nage are completly useless as teaching tools. Don't waste your time to do two milions of kokyu nage every day. This track lead to the precipice.Don't cheat yourself -- you are not 8th dan.
Beacause ability of doing kokyu nage must be a RESULT of your traning. Not a START. Before you can do that, one must practice locking, leverages, etc...in one word -- Real Things.

The implication of which being that if you don't get uke's balance with the kokyu enough to make them fall it should just flow into another waza.
And what will put uke out of balance? Your firm glance? :) May be KI power? LOL
No my friend. Forget kokyu nage. Forget esoteric theories.
Kanetsuka sensei teachs exactly like that -- strong locks right from the beginning.

Then you are just doing Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus.
Yes, exactly like that. One must start by doing(many years!!!) Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus -- if he is not experiences martial artist or fighter. There are not shortcuts. O sensei did it for years before being able to do koyu nage on ANYBODY.
Or you think may be we, mortals, are more gifted then he was?

MikeLogan
08-10-2006, 08:51 PM
Or you think may be we, mortals, are more gifted then he was? It is more frightening to consider this, than the other way around, for tons of reasons.

Happy Friday, almost!

michael.

Aristeia
08-10-2006, 10:28 PM
And what will put uke out of balance? Your firm glance? :) May be KI power? LOL
No my friend. Forget kokyu nage. Forget esoteric theories.
Kanetsuka sensei teachs exactly like that -- strong locks right from the beginning.

nonsense. Kokyu nage works and it can work ql;uite early. I was getting more value out of kokyu in the early play around with your mates phase than I was out of many kihon. Provided you get a committed attack.

Let me rephrase my previous point - if your kokyu doesn't put them down then you transition into kihon.
Take Shomen Uchu. You can step through and turn, guiding the attacking arm down for a kokyu throw. If you mis time it or they recover you can maintain connection and draw them through for a shiho nage.
There's nothing esoteric about it. No need for mysterious Ki discussions.
Phases of Aikido techniques =
Ma'ai
Moving of the line
Taking balance
Leading
finishing (individual techniques)

If the taking balance is done far enough to lead them straight to the ground, that = kokyu. If not, go on to the next step.

raul rodrigo
08-10-2006, 11:23 PM
To me, kokyu nage is the litmus test for a really good aikidoka. Its simultaneously the area where the worst and the best kinds of aikido appear. The fluffy mindless self deluding kind. And the truly martial, powerful, effortless kind.

xuzen
08-10-2006, 11:38 PM
Kokyu-nage is a loose term. I would consider them as uki-waza (aka floating technique) which requires shite to extend uke to the point of unbalance, then add a little push at the correct direction to effect the throw/projection.
Take Shomen Uchu. You can step through and turn, guiding the attacking arm down for a kokyu throw. If you mis time it or they recover you can maintain connection and draw them through for a shiho nage.
The same can be said if you draw them out and subsequently stick your leg out to impede uke's movement, you'll probably get O-Guruma or Tai-Otoshi.

Boon

raul rodrigo
08-10-2006, 11:44 PM
Kokyu nage is a loose term, true. And in judo, Uki otoshi, the floating drop, (not uki waza, which is a sacrifice throw) is the one that best exemplifies the aiki qualities in judo. The tenth dan Kyuzo Mifune had an absolutely beautiful uki otoshi that any aikido yudansha would be proud to be able to do.

Dazzler
08-11-2006, 01:17 AM
Kokyu nage are completly useless as teaching tools. Don't waste your time to do two milions of kokyu nage every day.

That may be your experience.

I've seen the opposite where the moves from kokyuho nages are related to more "technique" based activities and there is a structured development process in place.

In this case they are VERY USEFUL as a teaching tool, developing movement without the hindrance of the students slipping into 'fight mode' without using the correct moves.

I would tend to agree that kokyuho nage in isolation has reduced benefits but when aligned with more "technique" based stuff I feel major synergy is achieved.

Incidentally - very few things are completely useless. Sitting in the corner of the mat meditating is good for some, training like a maniac is good for others.

To me there is no black and white...hence the white and black spots in the white and black areas within yin yang sign for MA.
(if you follow me.... ;) )


Respectfully

D

Dirk Hanss
08-11-2006, 02:08 AM
Kokyu nage are completly useless as teaching tools.
(...)

Yes, exactly like that. One must start by doing(many years!!!) Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus -- if he is not experiences martial artist or fighter. There are not shortcuts. O sensei did it for years before being able to do koyu nage on ANYBODY.
Or you think may be we, mortals, are more gifted then he was?

Thank you, Szczepan forthe compliment. And all the others, too.

I do not want to argue about the first point. You are the teacher, not me.

I totally agree, that it necessary to do the technique as Jujutsu in the beginning. No objection.

And now I am getting on black ice, as I do not know all the variations of Jujutsu.

As I understood, the idea of Jujutsu is (very simplified) "To improve your technique, use more power and speed. If that is not enough, there are some tricks to get along."
So you start with body-building, weight lifting, running, etc. until you are as fit as possible. Then you are refining your technique.

My understanding of aikido is, that you use as few physical power as possible. You use all gearing effects, you can (strong locks) and all energy your opponent provides. Everything that is missing must be taken from your own power and speed. But to use your opponents power, you must recognise it. Not only direction, level and speed, but all the system behind it, physically and mentally. That is not true for the kokyunage syllabus, but for all technique, starting and ending with ikkyo.
Does this also satisfy your curiousness, Aristeia?

Regarding O Sensei. He was as mortal as you and me. He dedicated all his life to budo and was extraordinarily talented, so he evolved to one of the best budoka, seen.

He buit up muscles and was very strong and used all his strength in his technique - until he grew older and realised, that he must go beyond strength and changed all his technique.

It is a good idea to go the same way. Maybe the best as then it is YOUR way. Or you can try to learn from others and try to go a more direct path, where you are facing the risk to miss something important. But you might get there earlier. Not me as 2 sessions a week is far too few, unless a miracle happens. But there are other talented people out there, who might find wonderful ways, if not to improve aikdido, but maybe a better way to lead on the path.

The chance might be low, but would have bet a few trillions of years ago, that out of this slimy mud something weird like human beings would evolve?

Dirk

PeterR
08-11-2006, 02:22 AM
Kokyu nage is a loose term, true. And in judo, Uki otoshi, the floating drop, (not uki waza, which is a sacrifice throw) is the one that best exemplifies the aiki qualities in judo. The tenth dan Kyuzo Mifune had an absolutely beautiful uki otoshi that any aikido yudansha would be proud to be able to do.
Xuzen was referring to Shodokan Aikido terms not Judo although there are alot of similarity since Tomiki tended to use Judo terms to describe Aikido skills.

The uki waza are called the floating waza and in Shodokan dogma they are considered the highest expression of Aikido. Examples are found in the last three waza of the junanahon (basic 17): mai-otoshi, sumi-otoshi and hiki-otoshi and all three have their parallels in Judo.

I am sure that they could be considered kokyu-nage since they all require a strong sensitiviy to your opponents balance and good timing with relatively little joint manipulation but much of what is called kokyu-waza in other styles seems to be a catch-all for anything that can't be easily classified.

So I disagree with the evil Dr. S. aka the "Unpronouncable One". Like all kihon techniques they can be learnt early and later perfected. What is important is to feel the technique at the hands of an expert and then try and duplicate that feel on your partner. The relationship between feeling and knowing you've got it right or getting closer to that point is pretty strong.

Interestingly when you watch Shodokan Aikido shiai or randori you will more often see variations of the first five techniques (atemi waza) and variations of the last three techniques (uki waza) rather than the other nine. The reason is that once you start to understand the feeling required to effectively take down an opponent these floating waza are truely wonderfully effective.

xuzen
08-11-2006, 03:42 AM
Xuzen was referring to Shodokan Aikido terms not Judo although there are alot of similarity since Tomiki tended to use Judo terms to describe Aikido skills.

The uki waza are called the floating waza and in Shodokan dogma they are considered the highest expression of Aikido. Examples are found in the last three waza of the junanahon (basic 17): mai-otoshi, sumi-otoshi and hiki-otoshi and all three have their parallels in Judo.

I am sure that they could be considered kokyu-nage since they all require a strong sensitiviy to your opponents balance and good timing with relatively little joint manipulation but much of what is called kokyu-waza in other styles seems to be a catch-all for anything that can't be easily classified.


Thanks Peter, you read me like a book. Although I train in Yoshinkan methodology, I find the acadamic explaination and sound pedagogical approach of Kenji Tomiki and Jigaro Kano towards the subject of Jujutsu the best.

Boon.

CitoMaramba
08-11-2006, 04:11 AM
I find kokyunage to be great for henka waza :)

raul rodrigo
08-11-2006, 06:13 AM
[QUOTE=Peter Rehse]Xuzen was referring to Shodokan Aikido terms not Judo although there are alot of similarity since Tomiki tended to use Judo terms to describe Aikido skills.



Ah. My bad.



R

PeterR
08-11-2006, 06:24 AM
hey no problem

By the by the Judo uki otoshi = Shodokan Aikido hiki-otoshi - both really wonderful variations.

Ron Tisdale
08-11-2006, 07:45 AM
and sutemi is the word for sacrifice techniques.

Best,
Ron

raul rodrigo
08-11-2006, 07:46 AM
and sutemi is the word for sacrifice techniques.

Best,
Ron


Uke waza is the name of a specific sutemi in judo. A favorite of my aikido sensei.


R

eyrie
08-11-2006, 08:01 AM
Getting back on track... what Rob John said is spot on. Kokyu nage is just that... performing any nage waza using kokyu-ho. Whether they work or not depends on your level of ability to apply kokyu. In that respect, Sczepan is right. Get those jujitsu waza and kuzushi down pat first, then understand how to apply kokyu to any waza. Go back and search all those threads here on kokyu.

Mike Sigman
08-14-2006, 09:15 PM
...developing "kokyu" power.

From my own experience I'm pretty sure that
[[snip]]
d) you can train the body directly to develop this skill within 2 years if you know how.
In my opinion you can teach someone to do kokyu power in a fairly short time. To build it up to where it is remarkably powerful and so that you can use some of the kokyu-power adjuncts (like "short power"), probably 2 years is a good number. All I'm saying is that like any other strength/skill, you can do a little bit and it slowly gets better/stronger over time.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Upyu
08-14-2006, 09:48 PM
Kokyu nage are completly useless as teaching tools. Don't waste your time to do two milions of kokyu nage every day.


I dont disagree with that ^^; Sagriligeous as it might sound.
Besides which, if the word "Kokyu Nage" is any hint, you have to have Kokyu power before you gain any benefit from this practice.
Though I know you weren't referring to that.


And what will put uke out of balance? Your firm glance? :) May be KI power? LOL
No my friend. Forget kokyu nage. Forget esoteric theories.
Kanetsuka sensei teachs exactly like that -- strong locks right from the beginning.

Any average guy will figure out how to resist locks aftter a couple of years. Try those "strong locks" on any submission guy and see how far it gets you ;)
There's a point at which practicing that way simply develops bad habits. I remember a couple of Iwama guys that were rock solid in terms of conditioning over at Abe Sensei's place that couldn't hold me down, nor could they affect me during the drills(if I didnt want them to).


Yes, exactly like that. One must start by doing(many years!!!) Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus -- if he is not experiences martial artist or fighter. There are not shortcuts. O sensei did it for years before being able to do koyu nage on ANYBODY.
Or you think may be we, mortals, are more gifted then he was?


Actually, I think there are shortcuts. I'd say the proof is in the making at some select schools ;)

O sensei, Takeda, Sagawa, all of them spent years searching for ...what?

I don't think it was the execution of timing, speed or technique.

Personally I think they spent all the years finding out exactly how to develop that *power* or bodyskill. Actually, it's not "think" so much as I'm pretty positive of that fact. Sagawa spent 50+ years just perfecting the way he could correctly train his body. How much time was actually spent training his body correctly?? I'd say a fraction of that.

What's funny is that I haven't gone through the rote "technical" path, instead only training this body skill, and I still can perform most "waza" correctly. Not to mention resist waza from people that've been doing it for way more years than I have. :D

That being said, I don't think you're wrong in your thinking.
In the absence of knowing how to train body skill, then strenuous trial by error in a "martial" context is the next best thing really.
But if you want to go down that path, I think a lot of sports mma people have you beat :D

raul rodrigo
08-15-2006, 02:52 AM
In my opinion you can teach someone to do kokyu power in a fairly short time. To build it up to where it is remarkably powerful and so that you can use some of the kokyu-power adjuncts (like "short power"), probably 2 years is a good number. All I'm saying is that like any other strength/skill, you can do a little bit and it slowly gets better/stronger over time.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike:

I assume that estimate is for 2 years with a good teacher. If one can't find a good internal power teacher in the vicinity, how long would it take with some good dvds and training on one's own? It is even possible to train on one's own in this thing?


R

Mike Sigman
08-15-2006, 06:46 AM
I assume that estimate is for 2 years with a good teacher. If one can't find a good internal power teacher in the vicinity, how long would it take with some good dvds and training on one's own? It is even possible to train on one's own in this thing?
The basics of getting started on kokyu and how to start the ki things is NOT that hard, but it usually takes someone to show you how, the first time or so. After that, someone can apply themselves, maybe get a few additional hints from a good DVD, etc., and work themselves up, IMO, to a reasonable level. The stumbling block is that first time or two, understanding the correct feel for doing something with jin/kokyu and using the middle to manipulate that power. So on the one hand, I'm encouraging; on the other hand, getting that first feel/understanding can be critical.

My 2 cents.

Mike

raul rodrigo
08-16-2006, 01:30 AM
So on the one hand, I'm encouraging; on the other hand, getting that first feel/understanding can be critical. Mike

Thanks for the input. Okay, I understand the risks you talk about, but I think I'm willing to take that bet. I mean, there should be some definable outer limit to how deluded I could be about kokyu--at least in the sense that, as I think you've said elsewhere in these forums, there are generally accepted empirical tests for the ability to generate kokyu. Its not like the fluffy aiki bunny generalizations about ki. Time to order some DVDs and I'll see how it goes.

best,

R

NagaBaba
08-16-2006, 08:39 PM
Any average guy will figure out how to resist locks aftter a couple of years. Try those "strong locks" on any submission guy and see how far it gets you ;)
The point of practice the strong locks isn't competition, but to develop precise technique.


There's a point at which practicing that way simply develops bad habits. I remember a couple of Iwama guys that were rock solid in terms of conditioning over at Abe Sensei's place that couldn't hold me down, nor could they affect me during the drills(if I didnt want them to).
Looks like you like competition very much. Why not to try sports? Why you must prove to others that you are far superior and 'they can't hold you down' while doing aikido?
I think you are heading in wrong direction, but I'm not your teacher of course.


Actually, I think there are shortcuts. I'd say the proof is in the making at some select schools ;)

O sensei, Takeda, Sagawa, all of them spent years searching for ...what?
I don't think they reached their level by doing some 'body work'. They had a solid background on jj. This background is lacking in todays aikido.
Higher level training is usefull only to very skilled advanced half-aiki-gods. In my opinion you create yourself full of illusions if you think you can do shortcuts.Specialy if you incorporate some kind of strange 'competition-mind'.

Dirk Hanss
08-17-2006, 03:03 AM
I don't think they reached their level by doing some 'body work'. They had a solid background on jj. This background is lacking in todays aikido.
Higher level training is usefull only to very skilled advanced half-aiki-gods. In my opinion you create yourself full of illusions if you think you can do shortcuts.Specialy if you incorporate some kind of strange 'competition-mind'.
Hi Szczepan,
this time your words do sound less aggressive :)

I am not sure, if what I understand is what you are saying.

My opinion is that "if you can't do hard aikido, you can't do a soft version".

This reminds me to my sensei's comments.

"Do it more powerful" - so I do it powerful.
"Be relaxed" - so I do the technique relaxed.
"No I did not say weak - do it powerful, but stay relaxed!"
...
"No I said powerful, not brut force, stay relaxed, but use your power"
Sometimes he uses "ki" or "kokyu" phrases, but in principle it is the same.

The worst comments are "not bad, but.." or "A little bit better now"

They always sound like "you haven't understood anything yet".

I know it is true, but it is hard to hear it.

Why do I tell this?

There is no difference between hard and soft aikido, powerful or relaxed techniques. It is always both or nothing.

I have not understood much yet. But what is worse - for me as very head based mathematician: there is no way to understand it intellectually, if you do not understand it with your body. That is, why you have to do it on the mat. And the more I think, the less I learn.

Regards Dirk

Upyu
08-17-2006, 07:50 AM
The point of practice the strong locks isn't competition, but to develop precise technique.


Looks like you like competition very much. Why not to try sports? Why you must prove to others that you are far superior and 'they can't hold you down' while doing aikido?
I think you are heading in wrong direction, but I'm not your teacher of course.


I don't think they reached their level by doing some 'body work'. They had a solid background on jj. This background is lacking in todays aikido.
Higher level training is usefull only to very skilled advanced half-aiki-gods. In my opinion you create yourself full of illusions if you think you can do shortcuts.Specialy if you incorporate some kind of strange 'competition-mind'.

Lol, it's not "competition" dude, just cold hard fact.
When I meet someone that's spent 15+ years doing "hard style" aikido, and they can't handle someone that's 15-20lb lighter than they are, and has only about 2.5 years of serious training, then sure I think I should be allowed to debate the "effectiveness" of training.
Then again, this stuff can only be shown hands on, I definitely think you'd get a lot out of dropping by, especially with your attitude (which actually I like, believe it or not) ;)
If you're ever in Tokyo again PM me.

I used to think like you did. :D

Upyu
08-17-2006, 08:10 AM
I don't think they reached their level by doing some 'body work'. They had a solid background on jj. This background is lacking in todays aikido.

Thought I'd just add that Sagawa pretty much said in his book "Clear Power" that the essence of his stuff came from the solo training. NOT the rote technical work.
In fact he was much harsher, and said people that were stuck in the JJ mindset were..uhh..for lack of a better term "lacking" in braincells.
Besides which Kimura only made any real progress after he got special solo training from Sagawa which he then did on a daily basis at home.

This is coming from one of the "demigods", not me dude ;)

Just some food for thought

ian
08-17-2006, 08:32 AM
Hi Neil, sorry I'm late on this post.
I'm not sure if you include Sokumen Irimi Nage as kokyu nage (side entering irimi nage)?

Anyway, we were doing some koshi nage a while ago (onto big soft mats) and I noticed it was far easier with less hip and more timing. I think kokyu-nage is the same in that the idea is to develop timing and coordination with uke. It can seem very artificial when uke is attacking again and again, but they can be effective if you get the timing correct and its not expected (I see this as a potential problem in aikido - we need to be able to attack hard as well, otherwise once you've thrown one person any attackers quickly get clued in to what you are doing and are more wary).

Sokumen irimi-nage is definately effective - I remember wrestling around with a ju-jitsu friend who tried to do a hip throw, and the blending with the movement just put me directly into sokumen irimi nage in a very powerful way.

Ian

Upyu
08-17-2006, 09:18 PM
He buit up muscles and was very strong and used all his strength in his technique - until he grew older and realised, that he must go beyond strength and changed all his technique.


Following that line of thought, how did he "change" his technique from pure strength?

All the rote jiujitsu work does is give you a "physical" base to work from. That doesn't mean you can't directly develop what it is that all the "demigods" took years to develop.
It took them years to develop it simply because it took them years to figure out "how" to develop it, since most teachers weren't forthcoming on the "how"
But if you have the "how" then well... maybe you can surpass the "demigods".
They were only human you know ;)

Mike Sigman
08-17-2006, 09:22 PM
Sokumen irimi-nage is definately effective - I remember wrestling around with a ju-jitsu friend who tried to do a hip throw, and the blending with the movement just put me directly into sokumen irimi nage in a very powerful way.Reminds me of an old saying: "Neutralizing an attack is often just going where they want to go just a little bit faster than they want to go".

FWIW

Mike

Kevin Wilbanks
08-17-2006, 11:15 PM
There are numerous kokyu nages. Are they actual techniques that would work in real life or are they drills for developing timing?

Many kokyu nages seem to rely on a willingness by Uke to fall. Techniques that don't require Uke to jump require attacks that are so over committed that they are unrealistic. (i.e. Uke is practically falling over)

For example the kokyu nage that involves dropping to your knees and throwing an opponent who has grabbed both your hands. Try doing that technique on a Judoka or a beginner. It just won't work. I still practise it, but I try and see it as a drill rather than a technique.

What do you guys think? I know I am generalising.

What exactly do you mean by 'real life'? It seems to me somehow you have things inverted. You doubt the experiences and value of your actual training, which is a real thing happening in your life. Whether it 'works' could mean a whole lot of things, depending on why you are training or what you may get out of it eventually regardless of why you think you are training. In my experience, my reasons for training have changed over time and the benefits I have gotten from it have often been nothing like what I expected at some prior time.

On the other hand, you are doubting this training on the basis of what? It sounds to me like you are doubting it on the basis of vague imaginings. If your 'real life' included the kinds of situations you are conjuring up in your mind's eye, you wouldn't have to ask - you would be testing these things out for yourself in these situations. If you have a particular self-defense need, there are a whole slew of things you could do to identify and address it, and I don't think attending a general Aikido class would be very high on the list.

Ron Tisdale
08-18-2006, 07:47 AM
Bingo! Nice post Kevin.

Best,
Ron

NagaBaba
08-18-2006, 07:40 PM
Lol, it's not "competition" dude, just cold hard fact.
When I meet someone that's spent 15+ years doing "hard style" aikido, and they can't handle someone that's 15-20lb lighter than they are, and has only about 2.5 years of serious training, then sure I think I should be allowed to debate the "effectiveness" of training.
In aikido there are no rules to decide who is better.
Your hard fact is based on other hard fact that you are abusing generosity of tori. He is doing a technique with idea to protect you, so naturally a lot of openings are created. It is possible to close most of those openings, but uke will suffer a lot. If tori close all openings uke get hurt.
So in aikido dojo conditions most ppl will choose to rather not to do effective technique instead of hurting uke. That is Spirit of Loving Protection.
So stop dreaming about your invincibility. :p

Then again, this stuff can only be shown hands on, I definitely think you'd get a lot out of dropping by, especially with your attitude (which actually I like, believe it or not) ;)
If you're ever in Tokyo again PM me.

I used to think like you did. :D
I'm not sure you will still like my attitude during practice with me, when all your hard facts will be ruined in one second ;)

Upyu
08-18-2006, 08:39 PM
In aikido there are no rules to decide who is better.

Nah, but you should be able to tell what level your practice partner is on point of contact, no matter the format ;)

I
Your hard fact is based on other hard fact that you are abusing generosity of tori. He is doing a technique with idea to protect you, so naturally a lot of openings are created. It is possible to close most of those openings, but uke will suffer a lot. If tori close all openings uke get hurt.
So in aikido dojo conditions most ppl will choose to rather not to do effective technique instead of hurting uke. That is Spirit of Loving Protection.
So stop dreaming about your invincibility. :p

"Abusing Tori"??. I think you misunderstand. I was only preforming the exercise within the set boundaries of that exercise. No excess force, no slamming the person to the mat. No changing of techniques. But you're still able to exert control over the person at will (sans muscular effort). And the fact remains is, those people I partnered with had virtually no body skill, even though their bodies were solid from years of training..
Cut and dry. That is it. ;)

As for people getting frustrated and then suddenly trying to change the parameters of the exercise to show that they're "better" than me, that's happened as well. (And no they still weren't able to do anything).

As for us? Just PM me when you get into Tokyo next time. I'm sure you'd agree that touching hands would smooth out any misunderstanding we have. Like most people say, It has to be felt(IHTBF). Like I said, I like your mindset, you'd probably get the most out of this stuff compared to a lot of people out there, once you've felt it ;)

Aiki x
08-24-2006, 06:24 AM
What exactly do you mean by 'real life'?

Using Aikido to defend yourself from the attack of an assailant outside of the dojo.

It seems to me somehow you have things inverted. You doubt the experiences and value of your actual training, which is a real thing happening in your life.

I'm not doubting the value of my training. My question is to what extent can Kokyu nages be used against a non compliant opponent and to what extent are they a training tool to develop timing that will benefit other techniques. Or maybe some people think that they are pointless.

On the other hand, you are doubting this training on the basis of what?

I have dan grades in both Judo and Aikido and I have found that unless I attack in an unrealistic over committed manner many Kokyu nages do not work.

It sounds to me like you are doubting it on the basis of vague imaginings. If your 'real life' included the kinds of situations you are conjuring up in your mind's eye, you wouldn't have to ask - you would be testing these things out for yourself in these situations.

I have tried testing numerous Aikido techniques in submission wrestling and Judo matches against none compliant opponents. Broadly I have found that kokyu nages haven't worked work. Sokumen Irimi Nage works great, it's similar to sukui nage in Judo.

I've made Aikido work in two confrontations outside of the dojo. In these I used Irimi Nage and Kote. I wouldn't try kokyu nages as they don't seem reliable. However, maybe they might appear in the heat of the moment if I train in them diligently.

If you have a particular self-defense need, there are a whole slew of things you could do to identify and address it, and I don't think attending a general Aikido class would be very high on the list.

I train purely for the love of it (fun). I like that fact that the martial arts can be what you want them to be - Fitness, Fun, Spiritual, Self Defence. However, if you remove one of these elements then you aren't getting the full experience. As I've just explained I don't train to be a fighter but I expect my Aikido to have some practical application.

Thanks for all the replies to my question. Any further views would be welcome

mut
08-24-2006, 06:45 AM
Using Aikido to defend yourself from the attack of an assailant outside of the dojo.



I'm not doubting the value of my training. My question is to what extent can Kokyu nages be used against a non compliant opponent and to what extent are they a training tool to develop timing that will benefit other techniques. Or maybe some people think that they are pointless.



I have dan grades in both Judo and Aikido and I have found that unless I attack in an unrealistic over committed manner many Kokyu nages do not work.



I have tried testing numerous Aikido techniques in submission wrestling and Judo matches against none compliant opponents. Broadly I have found that kokyu nages haven't worked work. Sokumen Irimi Nage works great, it's similar to sukui nage in Judo.

I've made Aikido work in two confrontations outside of the dojo. In these I used Irimi Nage and Kote. I wouldn't try kokyu nages as they don't seem reliable. However, maybe they might appear in the heat of the moment if I train in them diligently.



I train purely for the love of it (fun). I like that fact that the martial arts can be what you want them to be - Fitness, Fun, Spiritual, Self Defence. However, if you remove one of these elements then you aren't getting the full experience. As I've just explained I don't train to be a fighter but I expect my Aikido to have some practical application.

Thanks for all the replies to my question. Any further views would be welcome i think if you let aikido consume you completly it will always be there at your defence, any technique, but in my humble opinion, you cant serve to masters, ive tried if your thinking judo then thats it , its passed you by, but totaly absorbed in aikido it will serve you well in any situation. i hope this helps.

Ron Tisdale
08-24-2006, 07:30 AM
Actually, I think aikido on a solid base of judo is wonderfull. I love to take ukemi from people trained like that. Dan ranked in Judo and Aikido...congrats! Let's train sometime so you can teach me a thing or two...

Best,
Ron

Kevin Wilbanks
08-24-2006, 08:14 PM
,Bomber,

"An assailant outside the dojo" and "a non-compliant opponent" are imaginary constructs. Moreover, they are too general to even begin to speculate about, much less train for. What type of assailant? In what situation?

If you get specific, then you can construct a model of your specific self-defense need and go about trying to address it. If you have a particular type of attacker and situation in mind, you can come up with strategies to be prepared for it or avoid it, and you can set up training scenarios to test whether a certain technique is likely to work.

This won't be easy, as there are many factors about the hypothetical 'real' situation that need to be simulated, and simulated as closely to real as possible. You'll need to find someone to train with who is willing to attack as close to the expected attack as possible, and be willing to endure the response. You'll probably need Blauer suits to avoid death or serious injury if you are talking about a scenario more serious than a drunken uncle or angry teenager. Even so, you and your training partner are likely to sustain minor to moderate injuries on a regular basis. You'll also need to find a way to stimulate an adrenaline dump similar to what you'll experience in the real situation - find some way to get scared or freaked out just before or while it's happening.

Those are the beginnings of my ideas on how to answer your question relatively safely. There are less safe ones, including, of course, going out and facing the real attackers and finding out what happens. Without being more specific, it sounds like you are just indulging in non-productive, unfocussed doubt, which is why I said that if you really needed to know, you wouldn't have to ask. If you had urgent, specific self-defense needs, you would already have the field experience and/or would already be doing something like I described above.

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2006, 08:16 AM
I've made Aikido work in two confrontations outside of the dojo.

Hmm, that doesn't sound imaginary to me...

While I agree that a lot of un-necessary angst get's expended over questions like this, it sounds to me that the person here is fairly well-grounded, as opposed to some typical newbie playing your typical 'what if' scenarios over and over in their head.

I do like your ideas about scenario training though, Kevin. The one thing I might change in that is in trying to push the boundries to elicit a adrenaline dump. In my experience so far, aikido and aikido keiko works best with a mindset toward supressing / eliminating / redirecting such a reaction. So I would try to stress the system to greater limits to facilitate greater control of that reaction. Just my opinion...but I know how logical you are, so I don't know that I can support the idea.

Best,
Ron

ChrisMoses
08-25-2006, 10:15 AM
Your hard fact is based on other hard fact that you are abusing generosity of tori. He is doing a technique with idea to protect you, so naturally a lot of openings are created. It is possible to close most of those openings, but uke will suffer a lot. If tori close all openings uke get hurt.
So in aikido dojo conditions most ppl will choose to rather not to do effective technique instead of hurting uke. That is Spirit of Loving Protection.
So stop dreaming about your invincibility. :p

I'm not sure you will still like my attitude during practice with me, when all your hard facts will be ruined in one second ;)

If you can't do a technique with enough control to keep uke from blocking/counter attacking you cannot possibly have enough control to protect them. It's entirely possible to do. But then you just like being contrarian and have blinders on to everything that isn't Hombu Brand Aikikai Aikido (TM). :D :p ;)

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2006, 10:37 AM
Mr. S??? Blinders??? Nah, he strips the blinders of others away!

;)
B,
R

Kevin Wilbanks
08-25-2006, 10:50 AM
Ron,

I agree that he sounds more grounded than I initially thought, but I think the principle still holds. If you really want to know whether something works 'for real', you need to get specific and actually test it, or train in a way that comes as close to testing it as you can. Otherwise, I don't see the point it worrying about it.

As far as the adrenaline dump goes, what you are saying sounds a bit ostrich-like for most people. If you are the kind of person that can face being ambushed or some screaming homicidal attacker, etc... without experiencing an adrenaline dump, then there is no need to train with a simulated one. So far as I know, the only way this becomes possible for most people is to experience the situation successfully many times and become desenstitized. There may be people who simply don't get excited no matter what happens, I suppose. For most people though, the adrenaline part is probably the most important defeciency in self-defence training. You can have all the skills in the world, but if you freeze up when you get scared, they are useless. In a way, it seems like it would be the hardest part to effectively simulate... how do you get together with friends and colleagues, set up a training situation you helped design, and get one or more of them to freak you out as badly as you'll likely be when some crackhead is trying to stab you, or whatever?

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2006, 11:00 AM
I agree...it's a pickle. I don't know how it works, but my training seems to produce in me the ability to face severe odds (at times) without the adrenaline dump. As in North Phila., 3 to 4 thugs, and my 90 something great aunt to protect. I did not experience an adrenaline dump, as I would have expected.

On the other hand, from somewhere close to that same time period, I allowed a rude driver to take my mind, and probably came very close to assaulting him when he started with the racial slurs. Because my mind was taken, I did experience an adreniline dump that time. Probably a good thing I restrained myself...I would have been beaten because of my loss of temper, or jailed because of my loss of temper. Neither way seems of much value...especially when there was no real threat.

Best,
Ron

mriehle
08-25-2006, 12:26 PM
Kokyu Nage doesn't work. Working is kokyu nage.

When I try to do kokyu nage, it always fails on some level. When I let kokyu nage happen it always works. Training is as much about learning to allow your body to use the physical skills you've trained it in as it is about training those physical skills.

IME, when you are trying to use a particular technique you are thinking rather than doing. Movement then comes to late. The thinking should happen during training, but not all the time.

I find that the techniques which work best are the ones that I'm currently spending a lot of time on in my training. I think about the attacks I've actually had to deal with and I generally used what was at the front of my mind at the time.

In jiyu waza or randori my failures are always because I'm trying to do something specific. Knowing this, I still sometimes do so just to try to break patterns, but I know that I will sacrifice effectiveness in doing so - at least in the short term.

Kevin Wilbanks
08-25-2006, 01:14 PM
Ron,

I know what you mean. I have encountered any number of situations when driving or using power tools where it was obvious I was moments from being killed or maimed without drastic action, and it never gets me overexcited. Yet, someone in an angry rage gives me the adrenaline dump, even if it's just a verbal altercation.

I took a Sports Psychology class once that had some interesting things to say that might be applicable to this. They talked a lot about arousal level in relation to performance. It turned out, as I recall, that the appropriate level of excitement varied with individual and type of sport/competition. There were no general rules, but they thought it was possible to determine the right level for a particular athlete to be in when they performed.

The interesting part was that both too much and too little were found to be counter-productive. There was a lot of talk about the implications for how ill-advised it was for coaches to give shouting speeches before games to 'psyche up' athletes, which was in fact overexciting many athletes and lessening their performance. Likewise, there were problems with doing nothing to excite them, using calming meditation techniques, or downplaying the importance of the game to the point where they were under-excited. Depending on the athlete, techniques on one end or the other might be indicated.

I suspect that adrenaline and fighting are similar. The problem with the adrenaline dump is basically massive over-excitement. On the other hand, I'll bet - if there were some way to test it - we'd find that being too calm would also be bad in terms of reducing awareness, response times, etc... I don't see any way you could figure this out and refine it for sure without a lot of real fighting experience, which most of us don't want to seek out for safety and probably moral reasons.

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2006, 01:24 PM
Good post, and I agree. I remember when I (attempted) to wrestle competitively in college. I was fine in practice, but as for matches...I stunk. Either I would be over amped, or under amped and daydreaming about other things while trying desprately to stay off my back. ;) I just didn't seem to find the correct competitive mindset.

Similarly, it never brought out that cold determination I have sometimes felt which either enabled me to cause an opponant to back down, or to overwhelm them if things did become physical. I think each individual has to play with different things to find their 'spot'...that place where all things become possible even against great odds.

The mind is a strange thing...

Best,
Ron

Aiki x
08-27-2006, 01:18 PM
Thanks for the great replies guys.

I know that Kokyu type power can just appears in normal technique and this is when Aikido is at it's best. Maybe this is something that will appear more the more I practice.

I liked the comment that Kokyu nage is home to the best and worst of Aikido. There is an unexplainable magic that appears on occassions and there is uke jumping about to appease toris ego type stuff. I still have reservations about certain techniques and their value. To be specific these would be Morote Dori defended by dropping to the knees and projecting the arms out (my original example) and the strange technique where uke grabs you from behind on the shoulders with two hands and you drop to your knees and he miraculously flies.

I've done Aikido for seven year. I'll do another seven and have a think about it again.

Ron if you ever visit the UK drop by.

Jess McDonald
08-27-2006, 10:08 PM
of course they do

Gernot Hassenpflug
08-27-2006, 10:53 PM
Well, only if you have better kokyu than the other guy. Although looking at it from the outside, that wouldn't matter. You could just observe the result and mutter "kokyu nage works". If it's not a kokyu nage, then perhaps it's a specialty technique (though hopefully imbued with kokyu to get the movement to work, or else forced through with normal strength), or else it's perhaps a strength throw (using some normal strength rather than kokyu power, and no particular technical finesse that would qualify the technique with a technique-specific name). All these would work, if the end result is all that is desired. They have different value for training of course. I would add that it might be better to not think so much of kokyu throw as a throw, but more on the fact that only kokyu is being used as opposed to kokyu and some technical arm and leg movements to mechanically increase the inital advantage severalfold. So, a kokyu throw would not necessarily be a throw, it might only result in a lurch or unbalancing, depending on the degree of kokyu development difference between the partners.

batemanb
08-28-2006, 02:04 AM
...in one word -- Real Things.


:D

jonreading
08-28-2006, 11:34 AM
My instructor used to teach kokyu nage using a US dollar bill. The instruction demonstrated the the dollar was both something uke and nage wanted. Committment is a strong requisite of good kokyu nage; when there is no committment fro uke, nage must remind uke of their committment (atemi). George Ledyard Sensei has a great article on atemi where he talks about this specific role of atemi. However, we often do not practice kokyu nage as street technique, so it is difficult to imagine applying a kokyu nage on the street.

In practice, kokyu nage serves to help students understand distance and timing, and the relation of momentu and the human body. I belive kokyu nage has its place in teaching, but ultimately kokyu nage as most aikido people practice would not be effective in fighting. Many components are required to effectively execute kokyu nage: timing, rhythm, distance, committment, and knowledge. Only someone comfortable with a kokyu nage would be able to accomodate the variables of a street fight to execute a kokyu nage.

NagaBaba
08-28-2006, 08:31 PM
Actually, I think aikido on a solid base of judo is wonderfull. I love to take ukemi from people trained like that. Dan ranked in Judo and Aikido...congrats! Let's train sometime so you can teach me a thing or two...

Best,
Ron
My wife is brown belt in judo. She practices always with long time black belt males, 20-30 KG heavier then her -- unfortunatly there are no other girls in this class.She never does competition, they do competition regulary (for they range of age 30-40 years old)
Of course she can't throw them normally -- they know right from the beginning what she is going to do. Except --- very, very rare case -- kokyu nage! It was the most surprising thing I've ever heard.
So for me it is obvious, one can't do kokyu nage without having powerful kokyu. And she is VERY good, indeed.

She is the only women I've ever met (and I met a lot of 5-6th dans, really) I have problem to do any technique. Very fascinating situation, isn't it?

ian
08-29-2006, 08:27 AM
I don't know how it works, but my training seems to produce in me the ability to face severe odds (at times) without the adrenaline dump. As in North Phila., 3 to 4 thugs, and my 90 something great aunt to protect. I did not experience an adrenaline dump, as I would have expected.

Yes - I have faced two multiple attacks (in the street) recently, and I would say one of the problems was my adrenaline reaction was actually too low. I think I would have performed better if I had been more stressed. I am guessing that this lack of adrenalin dump is due to long term aikido practise.

ian
08-29-2006, 08:30 AM
...when there is no committment from uke, nage must remind uke of their committment (atemi)...

I couldn't agree more. I think we need a good understanding of striking (effectively) to be able to do aikido. If we cannot strike, we cannot do aikido (even though strikes are not always necessary).

Ron Tisdale
08-29-2006, 08:58 AM
Hi Mr. S.,

Sometime I need to train with you *and* your wife. She sounds like a keeper...congrats! 2 MA nuts in the same family...please tell me you guys have kids! ;)

Hi Ian,

How did those engagements go, if I might ask? Any lessons learned aside from not being amped as much as you might want?

Best,
Ron

Budd
08-29-2006, 11:57 AM
Some thoughts on kokyu nage as a technique vs. principle:

I've trained with a few different aikido groups and "kokyu nage" as a technique looked different each time. My least favorite version was little more than a heave and if uke was larger than nage, they pretty much had to "tank" in order to be thrown.

These days, I think that "kokyu nage" is much more to train important "aiki" principles, like the subtle connection and manipulation of points of contact between you and uke -- how correct posture and displacement creates the inevitable "drop" where they have to fall (instead of falling just to be nice). How this works for me (and lord knows I'm still working on it) involves something like an irimi tenkan irimi, where you're constantly connected to uke and they have no choice but to drop. With the best versions of these, it's very difficult to feel nage's center, there's no tension in the limbs, but their structure is very powerful.

Which is funny, because I think the above things need to be in every aikido technique, but with "kokyu nage", I find the technique can't really be forced with muscular tension the way some of the others can (e.g. ikkyo, nikkyo, etc.).

Nick Simpson
08-31-2006, 07:36 AM
I spose it depends on the person doing the kokyunage whether it works or not.

My sensei's kokyunage really does work, I dont always roll or flip from it but I always end up on the floor! Mine on the other hand only works sometimes and I know that my Kokyu power isnt totally developed. Thats why we train, neh?

Gernot Hassenpflug
08-31-2006, 08:36 AM
My take on the adrenaline rush is that in the midst of this frenzied set of activities happening in the body, parts of the system come into action which are conducive to greater efficiency, i.e., produce more strength, speed, or other things measurable as athletic results. However, a large part of the rush is a waste of energy, I am assuming lots of things are merely "activated" in the hope by the shocked brain, that some of them will be useful. So one can't continue for long on this rush.

It is much better if one learns what efficient movements should be applied universally, then at least for that physical aspect of a reaction (and which is extremely basic and important and therefore probably a large part of the adrenaline rush activites are trying to deal with this part) the rush simply is not necessary. More energy conserved, and more put into other reactions such as strategic thoughts.

Musing...