Ken and David's Thread

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[Ken McGrew]

David Orange works at the same university where I teach Aikido.

He attempted to rest control of the class and was told not to return. He threatened to sue me, Saotome sensei, and my instructors. I have emails I'll be happy to post. He has been told by the university not to come to my class and has been told not to contact me. As you can see, when I post on aikiweb he goes out of his way to taunt me with statements like "Your posts on the internet are almost as delightful as talking with you in person." He harrasses me on here because if he contacts me at work he'll be fired.

I have been in contact with his previous organization. They have kicked him out, warned him not to make any claims of affiliation, and have told me they would consider having his rank revoked if he continued to bother me. I am considering making the request.

Ken McGrew

[David Orange]

David Orange works at the same university where I teach Aikido.

That is true. That's where we met. I was already doing aikido there with a colleague when you started your class. And rather than interfere with your efforts, I offered to help you get your class going and told you I wanted to develop a full-scale class of my own. You had no objection to that at the time, but when your class was established, you began trying to have me banned from practicing with my colleague anywhere in the rec center I pay to attend. You claimed that the entire center was now "your dojo". The rec center staff disagreed and denied your request. My colleague and I still train there.

He attempted to rest control of the class and was told not to return. He threatened to sue me, Saotome sensei, and my instructors. I have emails I'll be happy to post.

Please do. The members of aikiweb can read and will note the distortions you have presented. I threatened to take full recourse in law against you (not Saotome Sensei or your instructors) if you tried to prevent my enjoying the privileges I paid for at the rec center. You weren't trying to stop me from attending your classes. You were trying to deny me the right to train on my own with an experienced colleague in martial arts. I didn't try to "rest" control of your class but warned that you could lose your own class if you continued to "attack" me with bureaucracy where you could not touch me with technique.

He has been told by the university not to come to my class and has been told not to contact me.

That's a bit distorted, Ken. The rec center staff did ask me not to attend your classes since you didn't want your students to compare you to anyone with aikido experience. Of course, by then, it was clear that you couldn't tolerate my experience and asking me not to attend your classes was moot. I need more realism in my training than you can work with. My colleague and I have continued to practice together as we did before you arrived.

As you can see, when I post on aikiweb he goes out of his way to taunt me with statements like "Your posts on the internet are almost as delightful as talking with you in person."

I'm sure that everyone who has read your posts will appreciate that.

He harrasses me on here because if he contacts me at work he'll be fired.

Since it became clear that you and I were not compatible for training together, I've had no interest in your class or in contacting you at work. And firing? Very, very unlikely, even if I personally contacted you. The rec center people would probably ask me again not to bother you, but that's not a problem. However, since you have made such extreme statements on this public message board, I guess it's fair to reply to you. You criticized my aikido as "pre-war" and "more like jujutsu" than the modern, spiritual, humane and moral form of aikido you teach. Yet your posts here are rife with comments about breaking people's bones, clawing eyes and trying to kill people anyway you could. Please explain to me how that is morally or spiritually superior to training in techniques that would allow you to overcome severe attacks without resorting to such primal savagery. How is that superior to pre-war aikido?

I have been in contact with his previous organization. They have kicked him out, warned him not to make any claims of affiliation, and have told me they would consider having his rank revoked if he continued to bother me. I am considering making the request.

Ken, that is a patent falsehood. My former organization never kicked me out. When I left that organization (of which I was an original incorporator) it was MY choice because they had nothing left to offer me and I see no reason to ever claim any affiliation with them. When I left that organization, I went directly to the HOMBU of that organization in Japan and trained with Minoru Mochizuki Sensei, an uchi deshi of Morihei Ueshiba and founder of yoseikan budo. Mochizuki Sensei made me his uchi deshi and I taught in Japan under his direction. Would he have done that if his US organization had "kicked me out?" Also, would his son have accecpted me at his seminar in Alabama after I returned? No on both counts. But Sensei's son did accept me and stamped my Yoseikan passport at the seminar hosted by the organization you claim to have kicked me out. So unless you can document your claims as I can document mine, you make yourself look foolish and shrill to restate them. And speaking of lawsuits, you have just archived your slander against me on a public forum. Fortunately, I have no interest in pursuing legal claims against you. Your statements hurt you far more than they bother me.

As to rank, my former organization could not revoke my rank if they wanted to. It was issued by Minoru Mochizuki. Only he could revoke it and he has passed away. And in any case, the fact that I was his uchi deshi can never be revoked by anyone. Unlike you, I don't put stock in rank. As I told you long ago, I never bothered myself with rank or organizations again after leaving Japan. I offered to help you establish your class because I was interested in learning how Saotome Sensei teches and so that a diverse aikido scene could develop here at UAB. You agreed with my stated goal of having two separate and independent classes before your class was established, but you reversed yourself when your class began and you tried to keep anyone else from even being seen doing aikido in the entire building. That was disingenuous to say the least.

You made your false claims in a meeting with the rec center staff but you could not document them at that time and you cannot document them now because they are not true. I contacted the man whom you cited at that time and he declined to reply because he knows the statements are false. I don't believe you got those statements from him, anyway, but got them third-hand from someone relying on rumor.

Again, I say, it's always a pleasure to read your posts and I hope that you will continue posting here for years to come, but please re-read your own posts and consider the violence that you are promoting in them. I don't think John Stone would approve of them and as an aikido man, I felt I should address them.

Best wishes.

David

[David Orange]

David Orange works at the same university where I teach Aikido.

By the way, Ken, what do you think of this little baby's aikido?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pyx8jv6T...h=aikido%20baby

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yxs0U5QoFI&NR

David

[Ken McGrew]

Aikido at UAB is a student organization and a for credit class. University policies forbit competing clubs of the same type. Thus, David was not allowed to start a competing club. When I told him he could not teach in my dojo he threatened to do just that. It is my opinion that David is a danger to students given possible emotional or psychological issues. In class he refused to stop doing things I found dangerous for beginners, such as arm bar when we were doing ikyo with a bent elbow for safety.

He is not allowed to put up so much as one flyer advertising teaching or to have any organized classes. He is also not allowed to use the mats that we make use of. David may not know that I have an email from the Dean of his School stating that David won't contact me again. I have also been in touch with employee relations who tell me if he contacts me they'll take action. So far they have viewed this forum as a non-work related arena. That could change. He views this online forum as a means to harras/stalk me. In his emails he implied violence by making metaphoric statements about guns being pionted at my head. He needs to stop using this forum to harrass me. It's time people saw what he's up to.

I will not respond to David Orange directly related to anything. Therefore he comes into conversations I'm a part of in an attempt to make me cower. I won't cower any longer.

See for yourselves... I have edited of these rambling blackmail emails that go on for pages, but you'll get the idea...

Below is the quote from a representative of David's previous organization:

"Dear Ken,
In regards to David Orange, he has been severed from our organization. I have never met him, but I would consider him a serious problem."

Here's a qoute from one of his emails basically threatening me if I should report to the university his attempts to start a competing group at the university (a violation of university policy). I immediately reported his threats:

"And that is really only the tip of the iceberg. We
will be filing motions at every step, to which your
attorney will have to respond at $100-$300.00 per
hour. So you seriously face the prospect of paying for
your own attorney as well as mine.What do you think
you'd be up to by week three? You'd be facing $6,000
to $10,000 before February is well under way.

Of course, ASU probably has an excellent legal support
system for people like yourself, who try to infringe
on other people's rights. I'm sure ASU makes enough on
membership and seminars that they can fight suits like
this for people like you at three or four places
around the country every year.

Well, of course, Saotome sensei will also be
subpoenaed, as well as your two senseis in Madison, to
provide expert testimony on the matters you described
below as well as concerning your position in the
organization.

I am sure Saotome sensei will be glad to see you when
he arrives in Birmingham. I'll bet he will even
promote you. Do you think?

I guess, really, though, he might not be happy to have
to come and support your aggression at his and ASU's
expense. And there is always the potential that,
through your aggression, ASU could be sued for
hundreds of thousands of dollars. Saotome sensei might
yank his support for you and even expel you from his
group.

I know I would expel any student of mine who got me
embroiled in a power grab such as you are attempting.
So maybe you should ask yourself: WWSD?

If you win, it will only cost you about $12,000.00 and
all the time and expense of providing the materials
mentioned above, as well as the disatisfaction of your
sensei, which is priceless. Do you have that kind of
time and money to devote to this matter in addition to
running your new club? Don't you think that would
possibly weaken your own efforts and distract you from
your goal?

And then consider if I win. You will be liable for
legal fees alone that will probably exceed $20,000.00
by the end of March. Your club might end up with a new
chief instructor before the end of the semester (quite
possibly a semester with NO classes). Maybe Chris or
someone else both more capable and sure enough of his
own masculinity that he doesn't feel the need to
prevent his students from seeing a more experienced
person in training.

On top of all that, there would still be the punitive
and damage awards.."

This email became more disturbing:

"You need to realize that I am not "threatening to sue" you. Just think of it as my turning the energy of your attack back on you. You are holding the gun, Ken. It is up to you to pull the trigger or think more intelligently. I a! m only pointing out that the pistol you hold is now pointed back at YOU.

Remember, "Sensei" Ken. YOU threatened me. I'm simply reminding you that I do have serious recourse should you carry out YOUR threat. It will follow the outline sketched previously if YOU actually "attack" me with any kind of bureaucratic complaint.

I also forgot to mention that I will urge thorough investigation of your teaching methods and a full accounting of every injury that occurs or has occured so far in the short time you have been exposing UAB students to your arrogant ignorance of proper aikido technique."

Anyone want to associate with this?

Ken McGrew

[David Orange]

Ken, I want to thank you for quoting directly from my e-mails. I think I need make no further comment except this:

you 'quoted' come un-named person who admitted he had never met me and who simply said that I was "severed from" the organization in question. In fact, it was I who severed the connection at my own discretion and that organization will not be bothering me now or in the future. You allude vaguely to a statement by the Dean, with whom I have published a small book and with whom I remain on good terms.

If you have anything more to say on this matter, you should move it to a thread for that subject alone rather than hijacking the earnest discussion of ground work in this thread.

And please provide some documentation for all your other claims with names, dates, etc. I have full documentation for everything I say.

Best wishes.
David

[mriehle]

Right. So.

"He's an evil person."

"No. HE's an evil person."

"No. He is."

"No. He is."

Here's the thing, I have an opinion on who I believe in this *(%$ing match, but it doesn't have any real bearing on the discussion.

As for ground techniques, I believe that it's useful to know them. I don't buy the idea that 90% of fights go to the ground, but some of them do.

What I know for certain is that my father, Nidan in Judo, believes that a lot of matches are won on the ground. I suspect he's right. But I also don't expect Judoka to be my biggest problem in a self-defense situation.

Wannabe wrestlers, now, those I can see. But the "wannabe" part is important in those cases. These aren't people who actually know anything, they're people who think they know something.

Playing around with Aikido principals on the ground has turned up an interesting point: they work. Some new techniques and ideas are needed, but it's still essentially Aikido on the ground.

Would they work against an actual, trained wrestler? I doubt it. Certainly not against a BJJ guy. But the average wannabe wrestler? Oh yeah.

[gdandscompserv]

That is true. That's where we met. I was already doing aikido there with a colleague when you started your class. And rather than interfere with your efforts, I offered to help you get your class going and told you I wanted to develop a full-scale class of my own. You had no objection to that at the time, but when your class was established, you began trying to have me banned from practicing with my colleague anywhere in the rec center I pay to attend. You claimed that the entire center was now "your dojo". The rec center staff disagreed and denied your request. My colleague and I still train there.

So is this your colleague? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pyx8jv6TNN0&mode=related&search=aikido%20baby) ;)

[Ken McGrew]

Here is an email I received from David's previous organization. I have obtained permission in the past to share these emails, though I never intended to post them on a forum. I don't know what else to do to prevent this man from silencing my participation on aikiweb. I cannot communicate with him, and yet he posts on here directed towards myself. I guess it's time to send the emails to them.

Dear Mr. McGrew:

I am indeed sorry that you continue to have problems with Mr. Orange. As I have contacted you before, Mr. Orange has not been a member of our organization or the Yoseikan World Federation for a very long time. Our website will soon have a section that makes clear that certain people and organizations are in no way affiliated with us. Mr. Orange's name will appear on that list. We stopped short of censuring him directly because we could not obtain any information that indicated his threats. If you have copies of those emails that contain direct threats, we would most certainly reconsider and perhaps make an open, online censuring of his behavior. If I have those emails, that show direct threats to you, as a Board member of the Yoseikan World Federation, I would immediately forward them to Soke Hiroo Mochizuki with the recommendation that he delete Mr. Orange's rank.

I have had, as President of the organization, direct conflicts with Mr. Orange several times, always online. He delights in getting on public forums and talking about his not so extensive knowledge. He has not trained in Yoseikan Budo for at least the last 13 years. He does not know the current head of Yoseikan Hiroo Mochizuki and he has offended all of the senior instructors of O Sensei Minoru Mochizuki. The Hombu dojo that he speaks of in Japan has not existed as such since about 1998 or 1999. He cannot train in Yoseikan anywhere in Japan, Europe, Canada or the U.S., that is how many he has offended.

If you can reproduce anything that shows the actual threats he has made, please forward them to me. As president of U.S.Y.B.A. and a board member of the Yoseikan World Federation, I wish to convey to you that we do not condone this behavior from anyone who says they represent Yoseikan Budo. Please remember that David loves to play "head games" and that he delights in threatening people with lawsuits. I have been a target of such behavior and probably will be again. Be sure and contact you University resources with your information and rest assured, he will not be welcome in Tuscaloosa or any where else where Yoseikan is practiced.

Sincerely,

Dr. Phil Farmer
President U.S.Y.B.A.
Board Member, Yoseikan World Federation

[DonMagee]

Ken McGrew and David Orange. From reading this argument which has nothing to do with the quesiton at hand. I would have to say both of you act like children and are a disgrace to your employer, sensei's, and yourselves. Every time you post in this thread, you act more like children. Nothing you have said or done in this forum reflects the person growth that aikido is suposed to give you.

[David Orange]

Ken McGrew and David Orange. From reading this argument which has nothing to do with the quesiton at hand. I would have to say both of you act like children and are a disgrace to your employer, sensei's, and yourselves. Every time you post in this thread, you act more like children. Nothing you have said or done in this forum reflects the person growth that aikido is suposed to give you.

Thanks for the comment, Don. I will keep that in mind in the future.
I appreciate your comments on ground fighting and I would like to keep this thread on that topic. Sorry for the diversion.

Best wishes.

David

[David Orange]

Hopefully, my last comment on this matter only because I cannot allow official falsehoods to go unchallenged.

Dear Mr. McGrew:

I am indeed sorry that you continue to have problems with Mr. Orange. As I have contacted you before, Mr. Orange has not been a member of our organization or the Yoseikan World Federation for a very long time.

I was never a member of YWF, by my own choice, mostly because I had already spent a fortune and twenty years of my life traveling and "taking lesssons" in aikido and other martial arts. Training with Mochizuki Sensei was like eating a tremendous banquet. I didn't feel the need to continue stuffing myself after I comprehended what he had to show me as his uchi deshi. That freed me from rank and from the need to copy other people's movements. I have trained directly with Hiroo Sensei, Minoru Sensei's son and head of World Yoseikan Budo. His skill and understanding are superb, but it does not serve my human life to pursue further training with him.

(Phil Farmer's letter to Ken)Our website will soon have a section that makes clear that certain people and organizations are in no way affiliated with us. Mr. Orange's name will appear on that list.

My conflict with Dr. Phil began when I asked USYBA to cease and desist from using my name and my writing (edited and published online without my permission) to promote people and lines of thought I never supported. They wanted to be "affiliated" with my name when they felt they could USE it for their own benefit. Now they want to accuse me of claiming affiliation with them. I have never claimed any affiliation with USYBA since I left it in 1989 and went to Japan in 1990. I was one of the original incorporators of that organization with Patrick Auge, among others. Patrick, too, dropped that group and no longer associates with them. Long before he severed his own connection with them, Patrick stopped using the organization's name and simply referred to them as "some people in the Southern United States."

(Still Dr. Phil) We stopped short of censuring him directly because we could not obtain any information that indicated his threats.

That is because, first, I MADE no threats. Second, since I have not been associated with that group for some 16 years, nothing I say or do is any of their business and they are impotent to take any action against me. Unfortunately, that organization comprises people who will attempt to reach back from the grave and snatch the very souls of living humans. If you want to know what USYBA membership is like, look at the "cenobites" in the movie "Hellraiser."

(Still Dr. Phil) If you have copies of those emails that contain direct threats, we would most certainly reconsider and perhaps make an open, online censuring of his behavior. If I have those emails, that show direct threats to you, as a Board member of the Yoseikan World Federation, I would immediately forward them to Soke Hiroo Mochizuki with the recommendation that he delete Mr. Orange's rank.

Which sounds impressive, but amounts to an impotent whine.

(Still Dr. Phil) I have had, as President of the organization, direct conflicts with Mr. Orange several times, always online.

My exchanges with Dr. Phil were conflicts only because he made them so. He made several statements about Mochizuki Sensei's history which were simply erroneous. When I pointed these out, Phil began threatening me. And at the time, he signed his posts "President, USYBA" though he was not President at the time. The USYBA President at that time was Palmer Cramer, who saw no need to "censure" me, so Phil misrepresented himself on the internet to do the dirty work the real president of USYBA declined to do.

(Still Dr. Phil) He delights in getting on public forums and talking about his not so extensive knowledge.

I was uchi deshi in Japan when Dr. Phil had only recently begun to train in aikido.

(Still Dr. Phil) He has not trained in Yoseikan Budo for at least the last 13 years. He does not know the current head of Yoseikan Hiroo Mochizuki and he has offended all of the senior instructors of O Sensei Minoru Mochizuki.

In fact, I am acquainted with Hiroo Sensei and the rest of his family, including his brother, Tetsuma, who also has declined to continue in "yoseikan budo". Tetsuma Sensei, a very severe karate man, has become the head of "Sei Fu Kai," an organization of the menkyo kaiden holders promoted by Mochizuki Minoru Sensei, himself, in the early 1990s. I didn't join either group. I am now a cancer researcher. Aikido serves only to enhance my life. It is independent of any organization, teacher or rank and it does not rule, but serves me.

(Dr. Phil)The Hombu dojo that he speaks of in Japan has not existed as such since about 1998 or 1999. He cannot train in Yoseikan anywhere in Japan, Europe, Canada or the U.S., that is how many he has offended.

More mere bluster. When I trained at the place then known round the world as "the yoseikan," the kamban said, "budo yoseikan kokusai hombu dojo" or "International Headquarters Dojo of Yoseikan Budo." I taught classes there under Mochizuki Sensei's direction. I had my own students and class times. I have invitations from a number of yoseikan groups with whom I remain on good terms. Phil's group is only one of at least three yoseikan budo associatons in North America. He presents himself as speaking for all of them, but he doesn't even represent himself well.

(Still Dr. Phil) If you can reproduce anything that shows the actual threats he has made, please forward them to me.[/quote

Jeopardy theme plays......crickets chirp....midnight chimes....the calendar pages flip like a scene from Citizen Kane.........

Lunch....dinner......years go by. Gray hairs emerge......

Any answer yet????

No.

[quote](Dr. Phil)As president of U.S.Y.B.A. and a board member of the Yoseikan World Federation, I wish to convey to you that we do not condone this behavior from anyone who says they represent Yoseikan Budo.

Again, I don't claim to "represent" yoseikan budo. Phil continues to chew on an empty dogi.

(Still Dr. Phil) Please remember that David loves to play "head games"

Especially with "head cases."

(Dr. Phil)..he delights in threatening people with lawsuits.

If my rights are infringed and the aggressor is acting in an official capacity to spread lies about me, I will do exactly that.

(Still Dr. Phil) Be sure and contact you University resources with your information and rest assured, he will not be welcome in Tuscaloosa or any where else where Yoseikan is practiced.

Who would "welcome" someone he has slandered and whose work he has modified and published without permission? I have had enough of the "L'il Hitler" organizations that use slander and attempted humiliation to control their members. So trotting out Phil's sad bluster is just more noise to cover the signal.

If Ken didn't want to show me Saotome Sensei and John Stone Sensei's way of aikido, that's one thing. But to try to ban me from practicing aikido in the same gym, on an informal basis with another martial artist at completely different times is hardly an act of harmony.

David :)

[Ken McGrew]

David Orange made veiled threats of shooting me, threatened to sue me in what he admitted was a frivilous lawsuit, and there are pages and pages of his ramblings. How would anyone respond to such threats? If Orange had any decency he would simply stop contacting me and directing his posts to me, when he knows that I have promised my employer that I will not communicate with him. He is using the aikiweb forums to harrass me. He knows full well I can't respond to him.

David Orange is allowed only to train informally with 1 person on a 4x6 mat. The university did not go so far as to kick him out of the Rec. Center, but considered it. My position was and is that he has no business teaching anyone anything at our university. He is sadly mistaken if he thinks this university will ever allow him to do so. He is banned from soliciting students or having any organized instruction at the university.

It doesn't take a psychologist to recognize the signs of delusions of grandeur. I really wish someone would ask this man to leave me alone as I am not able to do so directly.

Ken McGrew

[Mashu]

Deat David Orange,

Please leave Ken Mcgrew alone and stop acting crazy.

Thanks,

Matthew :)

[David Orange]

David Orange is allowed only to train informally with 1 person on a 4x6 mat.

The rec center staff were quite clear that it is in my discretion to allow other people to train with me if they wish, just as two or more people may play basketball or run together on the track, if they wish. And I have used the big blue mats many times in the downstairs gym. We don't bother carrying them upstairs in the elevator. We just roll them out in the gym if the gym is not occupied. And what are those mats? 30 x 10? That's a lot of room for two people.

The university did not go so far as to kick him out of the Rec. Center, but considered it.

The "university" did not consider it. The rec center staff heard your claims and simply denied them. They did ask me not to go around your classes, but you've decided to speechify on a public message board, spreading a lot of very bad concepts about aikido, many pure fantasies about what you could do if challenged and bad attitudes about what you would do if your ukes should ever "resist you." And since these public, free-speech message boards have no bearing on the University or the rec center, there's no reason I shouldn't reply as I see fit.

My position was and is that he has no business teaching anyone anything at our university.

And it's a weak position that, apparently, no one else shares. However, after getting to know you, I'm convinced that you are the one who should not be allowed to teach. You injured a student in one of the very few classes I attended through your incorrect teaching of ukemi. And I think the University should look into that, but I haven't pushed it. I pay my rec fees and go to the rec center and do what I want when I want, as I did before you arrived and tried to make a McDojo out of the place.

He is sadly mistaken if he thinks this university will ever allow him to do so.

They allow it now. I'm there a few times a month, at my own discretion, in accordance with rec center rules. Your comments refer only to organized "Student" clubs. I'm allowed to train together with anyone I choose. Some of your students have even asked me for instruction, but because I agreed not to teach them, I have declined.

He is banned from soliciting students or having any organized instruction at the university.

Again. Simply not true.

It doesn't take a psychologist to recognize the signs of delusions of grandeur.


Ken, I didn't take a speeding ticket to the state supreme court after losing at every lower level, only to lose at the top as well. I may not be a psychologist, but I've associated with enough of them over time to have a pretty good idea what they would have to say about your own behavior.

I really wish someone would ask this man to leave me alone as I am not able to do so directly.

Really, Ken, because you have continued to spread these foolish stories that I was "kicked out of Japan" and that my ranks were revoked, I think you need to look at yourself for the answer. And since this thread does not appear on the main index, I think you and I are the only ones still reading it. So why don't we call it a truce: you stop spreading lies about me, tell your students you were mistaken, that I was never kicked out, that nothing was ever revoked, and that I'm just more seriously oriented to technical matters than you are, and leave it at that.

Have a good weekend.

David

[David Orange]

Deat David Orange,

Please leave Ken Mcgrew alone and stop acting crazy.

Thanks,

Matthew :)

Matthew,

I will honestly try.

Thanks.

David ;)

[Ken McGrew]

Here is another email exchange with David Orange that demonstrates his delusions:

">I would be suprised if Saotome sensei would be instantly drawn to you given your ukemi skills, as you suggest, but perhaps I am wrong.>

[David Orange]

Well, maybe I'm wrong. Of course, you know him better than I do. It has just been my experience that Japanese instructors seem to recognize a kinship with me and call on me as their uke, even if I've never met them."

Seriously, can't this man just be required not to direct posts at me? I've asked the moderator for help but been ignored.

Ken

[Neil Mick]

Can't we all just...get along...? ;) :crazy:

[Mark Freeman]

Ken McGrew and David Orange. From reading this argument which has nothing to do with the quesiton at hand. I would have to say both of you act like children and are a disgrace to your employer, sensei's, and yourselves. Every time you post in this thread, you act more like children. Nothing you have said or done in this forum reflects the person growth that aikido is suposed to give you.

Don's post is sharp and to the point, and right on target, and yet... the posts continue.... :rolleyes:

[dps]

Don's post is sharp and to the point, and right on target, and yet... the posts continue.... :rolleyes:
The self-righteous are not easily distracted. :)

[Ken McGrew]

David and Mark,

Every time I post this man addresses posts to me that he knows I can't respond to. It's harrasment. I'd like to have it stop once and for all. This will continue in the future if I ever post on Aiki-web, unless it is stopped now. He can't help himself. Under the circumstances don't you think he should have avoided communicating with me as I have him? How would you feel if your ability to participate in the online Aikido community could be vetoed by the postings of a lunatic? If you support this man, you support his harrassment of me.

Ken

[Kevin Leavitt]

I am not going to get involved in this as it is not my issue. I have not seen in this thread any where he has directly harrassed you other than to offer a counterview or response to your statements.

That said, don't understand why you feel the need to draw a line in the sand saying "if you support this man, you support his harrassment of me".

I support his (and your) freedom to post on aikiweb those post that are constructive in nature in in the right spirit of aikido.

I am very sorry you and he don't get along. I wish there was someway to reconcile the issues between you two.

[David Orange]

The self-righteous are not easily distracted. :)

:grr: :)

You guys remind me of the story of the three buddhist monks who were on a vigil of silence. As they worked silently, one of them hurt his foot (or something like that) and said, "OW! That hurt!"

The second monk laughed and said, "You idiot! We're not supposed to talk!"

The third monk said, "Look at both of you! I didn't say a word!"

:D

Human nature, isn't it? Even aikido can't turn humans into golden buddhas. :)

Best wishes.
David

[aikidodragon]

Kin and David you are both acting like my little brothers who are 8 and 11.
to kin
every time you post something amed at dave you are communicating with him directly. secondly you said you would not respond to him directly but yet you post directly addressing his posts and him.
to david
if his posts are not true why do you keep arguing your case. some one who knows he is rite should not have to defind himself against every little thing some one says about you. if you stopped replying to him he might get bord with the whole freeking mess.

to both of you
this thred reads like a written version of a whos got the bigger ** contest. resolve this between the 2 of you and not on a public forum.and just in case you guys want to fight it out on a public forum, take it to bullshido.net i'm sure they would love to have your argument there.

[Neil Mick]

I could NOT get this song out of my head during class today. And so, here's my little gift, to you both (with a little extra, personal creative spin...with apologies to Bobby McFerrin ;) )--

Here's a little song I wrote
You might want to sing it note-for-note
Don't worry, be happy
In every life we have some trouble
But when you worry, you make it double
Don't worry, be happy Don't worry, be happy now

Ooo-oo-hoo-hoo-oo hoo-hoo-oo-oo-oo-oo-ooo Don't worry
Woo-oo-woo-oo-woo-oo-ooo Be happy
Woo-oo-oo-oo-ooo Don't worry, be happy

Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
But don't worry, be happy
'Cause when you're worried, your face will frown
And that will bring everybody down
So don't worry, be happy Don't worry, be happy now

Ooo-oo-hoo-hoo-oo hoo-hoo-oo-oo-oo-oo-ooo Don't worry
Woo-oo-woo-oo-woo-oo-ooo Be happy
Woo-oo-oo-oo-ooo Don't worry, be happy


If you're havin' the blues with Ken!
Might wanna' shrug 'n make amends,
so don't worry, be happy!

If ole Dave gets in your face,
give him a hug and drop dat mace!
So don't worry, be happy Don't worry, be happy now

Ooo-oo-hoo-hoo-oo hoo-hoo-oo-oo-oo-oo-ooo Don't worry
Woo-oo-woo-oo-woo-oo-ooo Be happy
Woo-oo-oo-oo-ooo Don't worry, be happy

:D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6bSRcRAhnc :D

[Neil Mick]

'cause when you get on de fight see-saw!!
you get all tripped in your HAK-a-ma!!!

Don't worry, be happy!! :D :D :D

(Ok, ok...I'll stop now!)

[Mashu]

Sooner would have been better. :)

[Neil Mick]

Sooner would have been better. :)

Awww...you should thank me! This thread was practically begging for a soundtrack! :)

Now, if only I could get the darn song out of my head... :crazy:

[Ken McGrew]

It hurts me that a bully is allowed to bully me off of aikiweb and that people take pleasure in that. So, David Orange has won. I thought someone would tell him to leave me alone in the future. I was myself attacked on a train in NYC for aiding a boy who was being attacked. I did not allow him to be bullied. I will no longer post on aikiweb.

Ken McGrew

[Neil Mick]

It hurts me that a bully is allowed to bully me off of aikiweb and that people take pleasure in that. So, David Orange has won. I thought someone would tell him to leave me alone in the future.

Oh, please. I don't know the first thing about your situation, except what you post here. Not one thing we say will change the actions of a bully (if, that is what he truly is)...only you have the power to do that.

And the power of a bully is directly proportional to the amount of power that you give him. If he's bugging you: put him on ignore; shrug, silently wish him the best, and move on.

Some people take delight in setting themselves up as your adversary (cf, Mike S, in my WW3 thread). If you don't want to give power to an adversarial relationship: don't.

But, no one else can do it, for you.

[dps]

Now that Ken is no longer posting, does the thread get renamed to just " David's Thread" ? Does David have to argue with himself now? Do we have any one willing to argue with David? :)

[Kevin Leavitt]

Ken, dude, you choose to allow yourself to be a victim. Aiki lesson number 1.

[ksy]

Now that Ken is no longer posting, does the thread get renamed to just " David's Thread" ? Does David have to argue with himself now? Do we have any one willing to argue with David? :)

hey david,

i would have argued with you but i just found my dog back, so am in a good mood. it's your lucky day but dont push it.
but seriously, i hope you guys can come to a civil, if not peaceful agreement. besides, unless you're staying in lebanon now, that's no need to fight.

-we all turn to dust someday-

[Mashu]

David stole your dog?

This guy is insidious.

[Steve Mullen]

Deat David Orange,

Please leave Ken Mcgrew alone and stop acting crazy.

Thanks,

Matthew :)


I just laughed so hard that i nearly wet my pants, thanks :p

[Steve Mullen]

David stole your dog?

This guy is insidious.


Matthew please stop it, i really did wet my pants a little bit :p :p :D

[Ron Tisdale]

What a shame.

Ken, grow up a little. I know it's hard to just put someone on ignore, but just do it...it'll feel better.

David, I tend to agree with your perspectives on aikido (except maybe the baby aikido part, but those were great pictures). But why not just be the person who makes the step not to respond to his posts? Others are handling the errors in judgement just fine.

Wish you both well,
Best,
Ron

[David Orange]

Shoot, guys! I haven't even posted on this thread since Saturday! :)

BUT...I will post again tonight.

The principle here is, this is a public message board. I've had some heavy hitters slam down my comments on various matters and sometimes I thought they were not only inaccurate but unfair and nasty. But that's life. Anything we post here is subject to being answered and we just have to accept that and decide whether it's worth the heat to express our opinions as BLACK BELTS in the martial arts. The only way not to be answered is either to post PERFECT posts (but then you have to deal with all the admiring kudos) or else just don't post.

There is a bigger thing going on with this thread--and I don't mean the principle of making Ken feel bad. It's something else entirely and I will lay it all out tonight. :cool:

Best wishes to you all and thanks for your comments all around.

David

[Mashu]

Dear David,

I thought you said you were going to try?

Those emails Ken posted of yours make you seem a bit off. Threatening to subpoena Saotome Sensei and interfering with other peoples classes?

You sound like a barking loon.

[David Orange]

Dear David,

I thought you said you were going to try?

Those emails Ken posted of yours make you seem a bit off. Threatening to subpoena Saotome Sensei and interfering with other peoples classes?

You sound like a barking loon.

Woof!

Woof! :D

Read tonight's post and then get back to me.

Best to you.

David

[Mashu]

I hope it's not a full moon tonight. :)

[Neil Mick]

The principle here is, this is a public message board.

Anything we post here is subject to being answered and we just have to accept that and decide whether it's worth the heat to express our opinions as BLACK BELTS in the martial arts.


It's something else entirely and I will lay it all out tonight. :cool:



Don't MAKE me get all Bobby McFerrin on you...

That darn song is STILL goin' thru my head... :freaky: :freaky:

And there are more eevel, more insidious tunes I could put lyrics to...haven't even TOUCHED Monty Python, yet. ;)

[David Orange]

Those emails Ken posted of yours make you seem a bit off. Threatening to subpoena Saotome Sensei and interfering with other peoples classes?

You sound like a barking loon.

Well, interfering with his class was the result of his first interfering with mine. I had been doing aikido at UAB for almost two years before he showed up. I haven't advertised my classes and I don't charge for them. We just get together and train. But Ken threatened to get me fired if I continued to do aikido anywhere on the campus. He claimed the entire rec center and the whole campus as "his dojo." Since he is faculty and I am a mere project coordinator in epidemiology, he has advantages in bureaucracy there that I do not, so he tried to control me with that instead of with aikido ability.

I wanted to complain to the authorities, but they just were not interested in martial arts classes at all. They had never been receptive to my inquiries and I doubted they would like to hear me complaining that I had been bullied by Ken McGrew. :rolleyes:

Ken, himself, had to push like a demon to get his student class going. He insulted a lot of staff members along the way and treated a lot of "little people" very badly. He burned a lot of good will pushing people around to get his class going and they have not forgotten how he treated them.

I wrote my e-mails to tell Ken that I understood due process and that I was entitled to pursue my rights. I said if I could't get fair treatment at UAB, I would see what the courts thought about it. And I detailed everything I would subpoena, including his student records, e-mails, his teacher, John Stone, in Madison, WI, and Saotome Sensei in Florida. I made the e-mails sharp enough that Ken complained to the people I would have complained to and without my having to call them, they called me to a meeting. So I got the meeting I wanted without having to ask for it. They told Ken he could have his class but he couldn't dictate what I can do in the gym. In return, he told his stories about my getting kicked out of Japan and having my ranks revoked.

Now if you look at the first post in this thread, Ken says I threatened to SUE Saotome Sensei, but when you read my e-mail, I only said that I would subpoena Saotome Sensei. I never really planned to do that, but saying it made Ken give me the meeting I wanted.

If you read the rest of his claims, you'll find that it's never as extreme as he makes it out to be. He cries about how I bully him, but he doesn't tell what he did and how he threatened people and threw his weight around.

The fact is, Ken was made a patsy by my old organization, which has been spreading lies about me since I thumbed my nose at them and went to Japan to live with Mochizuki Sensei 16 years ago. That, too, is explained in detail in this thread, in earlier posts. USYBA has used their non-profit, tax-exempt status to spread these stories and they USED Ken to spread them further, making him look like a royal ass in the process. They like to foul up other aikido people and organizations because they believe they are better than everyone else and, quite similarly to Ken, they will stop at nothing.

My efforts on this thread were to get Ken to post the actual statements made by USYBA members. Ken claimed that they had "revoked all" my ranks, but from this thread, we learn that they actually told him that "IF" he could "PROVE" that I threatened him, they would "CONSIDER" censuring me online :eek: and would write a letter to Hiroo Sensei, in France, and "ASK" him to "delete" my ranks. :rolleyes:

In other words, Ken flat out lied to the UAB administration, to his students and to the members of aikiweb and now he has documented that fact on this thread, which is what I wanted him to do. So I wasn't just wrestling Ken on this thread. I was playing USYBA into a trap they had set for me. And now they are in it.

This thread started because I replied to Ken's statement in the groundfighting thread that he would defeat a groundfighter by clawing his eyes and trying to kill him in any way he could. I pointed out how unrealistic his thinking was and how unworthy of the modern, spiritually superior aikido he claims to teach. And voila. I now have proof from USYBA that they did NOT revoke any ranks of mine (which they are IMPOTENT to do). And I have proof that Ken KNOWS these statements are false. If he brings this baloney up with my employer again, I can PROVE that he has KNOWINGLY misled them (to put it nicely).

And that is why I commented to Ken on the groundfighting thread to begin with. I knew it would "stimulate" him, to put it nicely and that he would show his weak hand at last.

So, sorry if I've offended all you readers. I know it has been distasteful and tiresome, but I think it's done now. I would have stopped earlier, but since Jun moved the discussion to a dedicated thread and declined Ken's request to tell me to leave him alone, I just went as far as I felt I should.

Ken has now declared that he will never post to aikiweb again and I'm willing to bet he made some choice threats to Jun Akiyama along the way that we will not see. And, undoubtedly, he has advised all his students to STAY AWAY from aikiweb or be expelled from his classes. That's what the Ken McGrew I know would do.

So again, I want to thank you all for your patience and consideration, and for Jun sama's forebearance and fairness in letting both Ken and me show what kind of people we really are. I'm no saint, myself, but if I feel bullied, I will handle the bully and not cry to administrators or public opinion.

Best wishes to everyone, including our old buddy, Ken.

David

[David Orange]

Don't MAKE me get all Bobby McFerrin on you...

That darn song is STILL goin' thru my head... :freaky: :freaky:

And there are more eevel, more insidious tunes I could put lyrics to...haven't even TOUCHED Monty Python, yet. ;)

Monty PYTHON?!

What can they do to me? A flesh wound, perhaps... :D

Don't worry. I'm happy.

And I hope everyone else is, too.

Night, night!

David

[Steve Mullen]

"This thread is deceased it is dead, it is no longer living, it is an ex-thread"

(for the full effect picture the Python scene with the parrot in the pet shop)

[dps]

Well, interfering with his class was the result of his first interfering with mine.

So again, I want to thank you all for your patience and consideration, and for Jun sama's forebearance and fairness in letting both Ken and me show what kind of people we really are.

You have.

[David Orange]

"This thread is deceased it is dead, it is no longer living, it is an ex-thread"

(for the full effect picture the Python scene with the parrot in the pet shop)

It's Eric, the half-a-thread!

[David Orange]

You have.

Well, I didn't want to "show a lie" to the Emperor. :)

[HooverGurl]

It hurts me that a bully is allowed to bully me off of aikiweb and that people take pleasure in that. So, David Orange has won. I thought someone would tell him to leave me alone in the future. I was myself attacked on a train in NYC for aiding a boy who was being attacked. I did not allow him to be bullied. I will no longer post on aikiweb.

Ken McGrew

Ken, I am completely on your side! I dont believe you should cease your Aikiweb because of this. Read David's posts to your friends and laugh out loud.

David, :freaky: leave Ken McGrew alone in the future.

Why hasnt this post been locked?

[Nick Simpson]

Wow, who needs Television eh? Some very funny post's here, the rest I know nothing about so I wont comment, but knowing aikido politics and human nature I can believe this chain of events might have happened. Sad aint it? Although, the best entertainment is free...

[gdandscompserv]

I've heard it said that "martial artists" tend to be a bit on the stubborn side.

[Nick Simpson]

This thread springs to mind when I think about the term: Pwn3d!