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Nick Pagnucco
08-04-2006, 07:56 AM
I've done a search, and I've found several useful threads on recommending books, but I had a little trouble finding one that recommends good DVDs.

Obviously actual training is always central, but other sources can be good supplements.

So... any suggestions? I own (and love) the 1st and 2nd friendship demonstrations (its amazing what REALLY good aikido looks like, even on tape), Ellis Amdur's ukemi video (that fixed my rolls & am genuinely grateful), and Saito's aiki ken & aiki jo.

I'd love to hear people's opinions on what else out there is good.

(And I dont mind shameless plugs if you explain in some detail why your DVD / your instructor's DVD rocks beyond words ;) )

Don_Modesto
08-04-2006, 09:39 AM
Ikeda's are beautiful.

For technical instruction, step-by-step, Nishio is excellent, and you already mentioned Saito... If you like Saotome's weapons stuff, he's got videos on them. I don't know if the video done by Cool Rain is available in DVD format, but Aikido in Training is also excellent.

For demos, you named some heavy hitters. I've always liked the 50 anniversary DR tape put out by AJ. There's another sold by Julio Toribio that I like for technical analysis. The much maligned Saigo-ha stuff is fun, too. Also, Yang's Chin-na is very interesting coming at it from an aiki background.

Neal Earhart
08-04-2006, 10:44 AM
You may want to look into Yamada Sensei's "Aikido: The Power and the Basics" series. The series is well done. The techniques are clearly demonstrated with commentary.

http://www.aikidoonline.com/

At aikidoonline, there are some very good DVD's by many of the Shihans.

I recently purchased the 2004 and 2005 USAF-Western Region (Birankai) summer camp videos and I am very pleased with their quality and content.

Nick Pagnucco
08-04-2006, 03:30 PM
Don,

Just saw the Ikeda clips on Bujin. Wow. Very cool... very different than my sensei (he lika the BIIIIIIIG circle).

Interesting suggestion about Yang & Chin-na. Thanks.

As for Saotome... I'll admit my ignorance: How is his weapon work different than Saito's? I'm sure it is, its just that the only weapon work of his I saw is the tiny bit in the Friendship demo.



Neal,
Yeah... being in Albany, and seeing how my instructor is from NYC, I know I really oughtta get the Yamada DVDs. I've been to 2 seminars of his, though, at least.

Anyhow, thanks for the suggestions.
Anybody have any more?

Don_Modesto
08-04-2006, 03:50 PM
Just saw the Ikeda clips on Bujin. Wow. Very cool... very different than my sensei (he lika the BIIIIIIIG circle).
Yeah. Ikeda is famed for the brevity of his technique. You grab him and you find yourself pushing your face off the mat.

As for Saotome... I'll admit my ignorance: How is his weapon work different than Saito's?
Last I heard, the Saito people don't even touch BOKKEN anymore, but I could be wrong. A nice visual of Saotome's stuff is here:

http://theaikidodojo.com/movies.php

What do you think about the differences?

NagaBaba
08-04-2006, 08:12 PM
I saw John Messores video from demonstration from this link -- looks like you was one of his uke. I was suprised and wasn't very impressed. He did rather weird things.
You attacked him with large, slow prearranged attacks, full of holes, and he used it to play very 'martial' fighter. I feel him 'pretending' , he is not natural at all.
All advanced students of Saotome sensei are like him?

Don_Modesto
08-04-2006, 09:26 PM
I saw John Messores video from demonstration from this link -- looks like you was one of his uke. I was suprised and wasn't very impressed. He did rather weird things.
You attacked him with large, slow prearranged attacks, full of holes, and he used it to play very 'martial' fighter. I feel him 'pretending' , he is not natural at all.
All advanced students of Saotome sensei are like him?
Ha! Aikiweb's very own John Bolton. All vinegar and corrosives, but...still no videos of your own?! Tsk tsk, Szczone-thrower.

John teaches his UKE with bruises. We learn to duck. I figured with the pressure of performing before a crowd, I was likely to lose teeth, so mea culpa, I went slowly.

You're right. It was all prearranged. I'd guess he wanted to demonstrate principles fanning out in different applications. He has strong technique, I've learned from him and he runs good classes. I'm glad to work with him.

And the link for your vids, Sz-etc.?

grondahl
08-05-2006, 05:33 AM
Last I heard, the Saito people don't even touch BOKKEN anymore, but I could be wrong.

And the "Saito people" in question is ?

Don_Modesto
08-05-2006, 02:12 PM
And the "Saito people" in question is ?
Iwama. Have I heard wrong?

Thanks.

grondahl
08-05-2006, 02:35 PM
Since I havent been to the old dojo this is only second hand info:

Hitohiro Saito is definitly still teaching both aikiken and aikijo.

Hiroaki Nemoto (Ibaragi Aikikai Branch dojo) teaches aikiken and aikijo (atleast when he was in Sweden last year).

I´m not sure about Shigemi Inagaki, maybe Jakob can fill in on that one, or one of the russian members since Inagaki was in St Petersburg a couple of weeks ago.

Saito senseis western students, ex: Pat Hendricks. Ulf Evenås etc is definitly still teaching aikiken and aikijo.

Altough I´ve heard rumors that Isoyama has gutten rid of the old dojos makiwara and tanren and that some of the "new" senior instructors dont like weapons training......

Maybe the "Saito people" aint "Saito people"?

markwalsh
08-05-2006, 03:11 PM
I've taken ukemi form several of Saotome's senior students and they're the real deal. Full speed, full power uncoregraphed attacks from someone who knows how to punch someone in the face so they wont get up after - dealt with with grace and full control.

Also by way of reference and qualifications - I've been a deshi for some of Chiba Shihan's senior students in the UK so know what power feels like. Different kind of power - but not better or worse. If you want to really be critical, experience one of Saotome's students first hand, otherwise you're opinion is next to worthless. Harsh but true.

George S. Ledyard
08-05-2006, 06:05 PM
I saw John Messores video from demonstration from this link -- looks like you was one of his uke. I was suprised and wasn't very impressed. He did rather weird things.
You attacked him with large, slow prearranged attacks, full of holes, and he used it to play very 'martial' fighter. I feel him 'pretending' , he is not natural at all.
All advanced students of Saotome sensei are like him?

Each one of Saotome Sensei's students is unique. None of us look like Saotome Sensei and this was Sensei's intention. We all had to find our own Aikido.


Messores Sensei's original background was in Karate and then he took up Aikido. He is really Saotome Sensei's earliest student in the US. Anyway, his preferred style of Aikido is very atemi oriented and is a reflection of his karate background. None of the rest of us look like him... none of us look like each other. I can assure you that he can do what he wishes on the mat. Just don't expect it to look like some preconceived idea about what Aikido "should" be.

Don_Modesto
08-05-2006, 11:02 PM
Hitohiro Saito is definitly still teaching both aikiken and aikijo. ...Maybe the "Saito people" aint "Saito people"?Ah! Very sorry. I expressed myself poorly. What I meant was that when Saito people, famed for their adherence to weapons of course, practice bokken, they don't let the bokken touch each other. Is this true?

Thanks.

NagaBaba
08-06-2006, 12:54 PM
Ha! Aikiweb's very own John Bolton. All vinegar and corrosives, but...still no videos of your own?! Tsk tsk, Szczone-thrower.

John teaches his UKE with bruises. We learn to duck. I figured with the pressure of performing before a crowd, I was likely to lose teeth, so mea culpa, I went slowly.

You're right. It was all prearranged. I'd guess he wanted to demonstrate principles fanning out in different applications. He has strong technique, I've learned from him and he runs good classes. I'm glad to work with him.

And the link for your vids, Sz-etc.?
So you are saying he bits up and terrorises his students with karate-like atemi to make them react at his will?Something like Pavlov did? :p :D :D :D :D

ok, now seriously,
I have no doubt about efficiency of his aikido.

Lets say in aikido , during demo, techniques go only one way - only demontrator can to techniques and attackers can do ONLY prearranged attacks(I didn't criticise you for that). It very easy to abuse such situation, isn't it?

What I didn't like, in this context it is very easy to pretend to be a big fighter by doing 'applications' . Make effords to present himself better then he is. That's it. This false thing I was looking for better wording it -- situation becomes false and .............funny........ Applications you are doing against not preaaranged attacks, that makes sens. And techniques are not pretty at all. And you fail your techniques very often.

IMO if uke is attacking prearranged attack nage does 'prearranged' technique. Just like in the kihon.Than we have everything balanced well,natural.
If you want to show applications -- it is fine, but let free attacks with real counters and all -- AND in this conditions show TRUE aikido spirit. Than we have everything balanced well, natural.

NagaBaba
08-06-2006, 12:56 PM
If you want to really be critical, experience one of Saotome's students first hand, otherwise you're opinion is next to worthless. Harsh but true.
I experienced some of Saotome sensei students during seminars. :D

NagaBaba
08-06-2006, 01:03 PM
Each one of Saotome Sensei's students is unique. None of us look like Saotome Sensei and this was Sensei's intention. We all had to find our own Aikido.
oooouuuffffff!! suddenly I heave a sigh of relief (sp?) ;)

Just don't expect it to look like some preconceived idea about what Aikido "should" be.
Looks for me O sensei wanted us to be one with Universe. I wonder if this karate-aikido will lead folks to this goal?

Captain Black Belt
08-06-2006, 02:07 PM
Stop me if I'm wrong, but are all demos pre-arranged? I have never participated in one that has been pre-aranged, and in fact I find it rather odd to do so.

As for DVD's, I found the Mustard sensei and Chida sensei DVD's released by the Sendokan dojo in Canada to be infinitely helpful in understanding the logic behind individual techniques (riai) and I return to them often during my training.

The Yoshinkan Honbu released a series of tapes/DVD's that explain the kihon for nearly every kihon waza...probably not too interesting to many of the aikikai people out there, but the explanations of the techniques have merit in all styles of aikido because of their similarities/crossovers.

Nick Pagnucco
08-06-2006, 03:34 PM
A nice visual of Saotome's stuff is here:

http://theaikidodojo.com/movies.php

What do you think about the differences?

Hmm... well, with my inexperienced eye... it looks like in the Iwama katas keep both hands on the handle of the bokken more, start less from the position where the weapon is back & down, and there seem to be more attacks on 'upswings'.

Did Saotome Sensei have a background in sword from a koryu or something before aikido?



What I didn't like, in this context it is very easy to pretend to be a big fighter by doing 'applications' . Make effords to present himself better then he is. That's it. This false thing I was looking for better wording it -- situation becomes false and .............funny........ Applications you are doing against not preaaranged attacks, that makes sens. And techniques are not pretty at all. And you fail your techniques very often.

Ok then, a question:
What are some videos, dvds, or downloadable clips of what you think aikido should look like? Aside from o-sensei, of course :)

EDIT: used a better quote

Nick Pagnucco
08-06-2006, 03:36 PM
As for DVD's, I found the Mustard sensei and Chida sensei DVD's released by the Sendokan dojo in Canada to be infinitely helpful in understanding the logic behind individual techniques (riai) and I return to them often during my training.

The Yoshinkan Honbu released a series of tapes/DVD's that explain the kihon for nearly every kihon waza...probably not too interesting to many of the aikikai people out there, but the explanations of the techniques have merit in all styles of aikido because of their similarities/crossovers.

Great, thanks!
In the thread recommending books, people rave about a book or two by Shioda, so I'd expect there'd be some good yoshinkan dvds out there.

NagaBaba
08-06-2006, 03:53 PM
Ok then, a question:
What are some videos, dvds, or downloadable clips of what you think aikido should look like? Aside from o-sensei, of course :)

EDIT: used a better quote
Hello Nicholas,
That will serious off topic, you know? ;)
We are talking about a demo or DVD, not 'ideal aikido'......Me, I'm basically against aikido demo. It only falsify 'aikido image'.

ChrisMoses
08-06-2006, 06:06 PM
Professor Ron Duncan's Combat Aikijujutsu series is all that a serious student of budo could ever ask for and more.

I'd comment on Sczcszretrsxcepan's posts, but they're really not worth it.

Nick Pagnucco
08-07-2006, 09:23 AM
Hello Nicholas,
That will serious off topic, you know? ;)
We are talking about a demo or DVD, not 'ideal aikido'......Me, I'm basically against aikido demo. It only falsify 'aikido image'.

Fair enough. You got me there. I should not have used the word ideal. Rather, I should have just asked for something you like. Nonetheless, I think the request for counter examples is very much on topic. You've suggested those are 'bad' clips, so what are 'good' examples?

deepsoup
08-07-2006, 03:35 PM
I'm afraid it looks terribly cheesy online, but just to be different, I'm going to recommend Vladimir Vasiliev's Systema Hand to Hand (http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=64). Its excellent, full of great excercises and drills all of which are totally aiki.

Sean
x

Brad Pruitt
08-07-2006, 09:35 PM
I saw John Messores video from demonstration from this link -- looks like you was one of his uke. I was suprised and wasn't very impressed. He did rather weird things.
You attacked him with large, slow prearranged attacks, full of holes, and he used it to play very 'martial' fighter. I feel him 'pretending' , he is not natural at all.
All advanced students of Saotome sensei are like him?
Why don't you recommend something ? In all of the posts of all of the threads of yours I've read you are negative and seemingly trying to start an argument. What is your real point in posting ? Didn't your mother ever tell you " If you don't have anything nice to say......... " ?

Brad Pruitt
08-08-2006, 10:22 AM
I would recommend the Shoji Nishio dvd series. His karate background and weapons work make for some really polished aikido technique. The dvd Oyo Henka by Saotome is one of my favorites

Brad Pruitt

Don_Modesto
08-08-2006, 02:02 PM
I would recommend the Shoji Nishio dvd series.

Yes. Nishio is beautiful.

The dvd Oyo Henka by Saotome is one of my favorites
What sets it apart for you? Thanks.

NagaBaba
08-08-2006, 08:48 PM
Why don't you recommend something ? In all of the posts of all of the threads of yours I've read you are negative and seemingly trying to start an argument. What is your real point in posting ? Didn't your mother ever tell you " If you don't have anything nice to say......... " ?
Hello Brad Pruitt,
Did you really read, heaven forbid, ALL my posts? :o :o :o

You are right. I'd recommend THOSE VIDEOS (http://www.neaikikai.org/videos.html)

Brad Pruitt
08-08-2006, 11:37 PM
What sets it apart for you? Thanks.[/QUOTE]
I like the way he uses resistance as an exercise in a jiyu waza form and what he counters with is just nice to watch.It's very challenging and creative (for me) to come up with something when uke is not just dancing along with you.Plus, I just like his style. Something about the way he does technique that speaks to me. Similar to the way Mary Heiny mystifies me.

Brad Pruitt
08-08-2006, 11:50 PM
Hello Brad Pruitt,
Did you really read, heaven forbid, ALL my posts? :o :o :o

You are right. I'd recommend THOSE VIDEOS (http://www.neaikikai.org/videos.html)
No I haven't read all of your 407 posts but I have come across quite a few of them.You've just come across as argumentative in most I've read but I could be wrong. You didn't respond to me mean or nastily(sp?). Thanks for the response and the recommendation of the Kanai Sensei videos. I don't know a whole lot about Kanai Sensei aikido but I look forward to exploring it.