Why no tsuba?

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[JamesB]

Does anyone know why aikidoka typically train with bokken that have no tsuba? Are there styles/schools within aikido that typically do train with a tsuba?

Has anyone trained both ways and has an opinion on which way you prefer and why?

-JamesB
Not even 5th kyu, USAF East

[jk]

Hey wait, wasn't there a thread on this very subject in e-budo a while ago? Here it is:

tsuba, or not tsuba? (http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=6914)

My opinion? Some people may regard bokuto as disposable, and therefore do not warrant embellishments such as tsuba. However, given the costs of plastic tsuba and those white rubber tsubadome these days, that isn't a highly convincing argument. A tsuba is a very nice thing to have when your training partner, inadvertently or not, slides a jo down your bokuto. Mistakes do occur during training, so a minimal amount of protection, at very little cost, is better than none at all. Hope this helps.

Regards,
John

[JJF]

I guess there is a number of reasons... One might be simply be lazy (hey it does take a couple of seconds to put it on ;)). Another would be that the average bokken has a rather short handle and if you don't use the tsuba you can extend your grip a little up the sword, thereby gaining better control. I know this is not in compliance with 'realistic practice', but in paired practice I prefer safety to realism.
The way I see it, there is no use in putting the tsuba on the bokken, as it has no or very little practical use when it comes to protection. With my limited knowledge of sword-work I would never rely on the tsuba to protect my hands, instead the protection should be to move out of the line of the attack and take the center. In 'real life' this should be the same. I would be very scared if the tsuba was the only thing keeping my opponents sword from cutting my hand. It is not large enough nor strong enough to be a reliable 'safety-valve' and I don't think the blocking way to use the sword is the kind of technique one should practice.
I have had some experience with both Seitei-iaido, Aiki-toho, Kendo, Aiki-ken tai jo and Aiki-ken tai ken, and in neither of these arts have I experienced any technique relying on the tsuba for anything else than a means to either keep the sword in the scabbard (left hands thumb controls it) or getting the sword out of the scabbard quickly (left hand thumb pushes on the side of the tsuba to get loosen the sword from the firm grip of the scabbard).
Finally when using the bokken while practicing aikido the tsuba could (in theory) in some situations either scratch uke or put pressure on ukes wrist, so to prevent to add discomfort to uke I don't put it on.

In conclusion: I have very little reason NOT to use a tsuba, and slightly less reason to use it - so I don't. (However what put's me over the top might be the 'when in Rome' factor ;))

[Andre]

If you have ever been to a Chiba Sensei seminar where he taught bokken you probably have tsuba on your bokken today. He does a technique (I believe its called tsuri otoshi) where the attacker does a shomen and you do a slightly quicker shomen while pulling your hips. When learning this you get hit a lot OVER the tsuba, I wouldn't even want to try it without a tsuba.

[wildaikido]

In the kenjutsu I do we do have some tsuba fighting techniques, these are from where your swords are crossed at the tsuba and you push and struggle trying to get the advantage in a dangerous situation that might just occur. In the sword work we do in our Aikido (Yoseikan) which is Katori Shinto Ryu we practice a technique where you block low on your blade and use the tsuba aswell. So it does have some practical uses but maybe Osensei just didn't see the need for them in aikiken.

[guest1234]

I've been in both kinds of dojos, and also go with the 'when in Rome' philosophy. My own (probably wrong) theory is that since the Iwama-style dojos do not use tsuba, they probably were not used by O Sensei in Iwama, where I think we'll all agree the main Aikido weapons traditions come from...one guess would be those now cheap and easily available rubber and plastic habaki and tsuba wouldn't have been quite so cheap and available in post-war Japan. Another would be they seem today more to be used for Iaido-like adaptations in some schools (eg, hold and release from an imaginary saya) than necessarily needed to illustrate the sword technique within the empty handed technique.I guess a point in that would either be the focus and dicipline that teaches, or the particular instructor likes Iaido. I think you can mimic the action one person mentioned, the locking of tsubas in trying to gain an advantage, without the tsuba if partners have an increased sensitivity to each others pressure and movement, which is not a bad thing to develop. But then, I have enough trouble in weapons class as it is...I just go with what the instructor prefers.

[tedehara]

Originally posted by JamesB
Does anyone know why aikidoka typically train with bokken that have no tsuba? Are there styles/schools within aikido that typically do train with a tsuba?

Has anyone trained both ways and has an opinion on which way you prefer and why?

-JamesB
Not even 5th kyu, USAF East

If you've ever seen an actual samurai sword, they have long handles. I've been taught to hold the sword with one hand's width between the hands. On a normal bokken, this grip is usually too long. The tsuba gets in the way because the handle is usually too short. I think the handle is usually made short because of the smaller average hand size in Asia, where most of the bokkens are made. If you spend the buck$ and get one custom made in the USA, the handles are usually longer.

That's why I usually train with no tsuba. Other people may have other reasons.

[Brian Vickery]

Originally posted by JamesB
Does anyone know why aikidoka typically train with bokken that have no tsuba? Are there styles/schools within aikido that typically do train with a tsuba?

Has anyone trained both ways and has an opinion on which way you prefer and why?

-JamesB
Not even 5th kyu, USAF East

Hi James,

The reason why we don't use a tsuba on the bokken is to prevent the fingers from being injured during Tachidori (sword taking) techniques. The fingers can easily get trapped on the handle of the sword during this type of practice due to a tsuba being there.

The bokken is also used for suburi (individual kata practice) where a tsuba is just not needed.

When it comes to tachiuchi (kumite; paired practice) we opt for a bokuto made out of white waxwood. The waxwood is much stronger and denser material when compared to oak or hickory. It also cracks & splinters something like bamboo, rather than fracture like other woods, making it a much safer weapon to use on a crowded mat. Some students use a tsuba on these bokuto, but not all. (Once they get cracked on the knuckles a few times, they then become BIG fans of the tsuba;) )

Regards,

[Tony Peters]

A number of folks have come up with good answers as to why or why not to use a tsuba. My opinion is likely the least liked but perhaps the closest to reality. Since Aiki ken isn't really a sword style just a way of learning movement. There really isn't any need for the protection that it provides. As such there is more reason to remove it for Tachidori yes the tsuba does "get in the way" However I'm not sure that removing it to be "Safer" is neccessarilly the correct thing to do. That's sorta like leaving the training wheels on the bike forever. If you can't do tachidori safely with the tsuba on then you need to work on it. The point of the technique is to take a REAL sword away from someone without

A) Hurting your self
and
B) Hurting your partner/opponent
In the end you are cheating yourself and your technique by making the problem easier to solve before you start.

If your Boken can be fitted with a tsuba and you want to make one it's pretty easy to do so with leather from a weight belt and some Elmers glue. The ones I have made have stood up to some EXTREME abuse in Jodo class and have kept my hands from becoming hamburger. A dremel tool can be used to add decorative shaping if you need.

One last thing a tsuba is really on a sword to ballance the blade not for hand protection (though that is a nice additional aspect of it).

[Peter Boylan]

Hi Tony, nice to see you here.

The tsuba on a shinken serves a couple of purposes. It does protect the hands. If a blade comes sliding down, it will be stopped at best, bounced away at worst, by the tsuba. It also provides protection in tsuba zeriai, when people have moved in tight and are working tsuba to tsuba. Most importantly I think is that if you thrust hard (and why would you be thrusting any other way?), and you run into something hard that makes the sword stop suddenly, the tsuba keeps your hands from sliding forward over the blade and neatly slicing your fingers off.

On a bokuto it does a wonderful job of protecting your fingers from strikes. It's not a perfect job, but I'd hate to do a lot of the MJER tachi uchi no kurai and tsumei ai no kurai without one, and Itto-ryu is even worse. I don't even want to contemplate Shinto Muso Ryu's Hikiotoshi Uchi without out a tsuba. It also makes you aware of the dimensions and properties of a shinken, so you will be more likely to treat it like a proper sword.

As for shinken having long tsuka (hilts), the only ones with really long tsuka are the ones Bugei sells. Oddly, I've never seen swords mounted like that in Japan. The standard tsuka lenght is 9 sun (roughly 11 inches/27 cm). A tsuka of 1 shaku (12 in/30 cm) is exceptionally long, though I have sold a couple to people with really large handes.

I'm not a fan of the little plastic tsuba, a couple of shots of hikiotoshi uchi and they crack and go blasting right off the bokuto and the jo does a nice job on your hand. I prefer the boiled leather tsuba which are traditionally used by Shinto Muso Ryu and Itto Ryu, among others.

I agree with Tony that aiki-ken isn't good swordsmanship, though it can be good aikido. But even if we are practicing to get off the line and take control of the center (nothing particularly special about doing that in aikido by the way, that's a standard operating procedure in every style I've seen), we're not perfect, and a little protection goes a long way if it's the difference between being out for 6 weeks with broken fingers and being out for 15 minutes with a nasty bruise.

[Kami]

Hello, Peter! Glad to see you here!
I guess you did sum it up quite nicely.
Best regards and good keiko

[Tony Peters]

Hi Peter,
Yup Hikiotoshi will destroy a plastic tsuba right quick. Even with a leather one on you boken your hand can get hit. As for a tsuba on a Shinkin I was under the impression that while hand protection is part of a tsuba's existance it's primary purpose was to adjust the weight center of the sword. I wish I could remember where I read this maybe in the "Samurai Sword" I have to research it some. Anyway whoever said it intimated that the reason that tsuba vary so much in weight, thickness and design had more to do with "tuning" a particular blade to a particular person and less to do with fashion or art.
Boiled leather...harumph. Some of us haven't moved to/lived in Japan (yet, I leave next may) and have to make do with laminated leather. Oh and I was trying to be polite about Aikiken not being kenjutsu.

[David Humm]

As some one who studies Iai (British Kendo Association) to compliment my Aikido (United Kingdom Aikikai) I have found that the use of tsuba is of personal choice unless it is stipulated by the Sensei.

There is a technique in aiki-ken called Maki-otosh, this is a deflection of one's opponents weapon (be it bokken or jo) this action quite often extends right up to where the tsuba would be on a bokken (there or not) however, the jo as we know does not carry such hand protection, therefore one has to be considerate of our partner's welfare regardless.

I must confess, during 14 years of study (aikido) I rearly see a tsuba fitted to a bokken, similarly many of the Japanese Sensei I have been fortunate to see, likewise omit the tsuba. Interesting question.

[Christo]

I've totally been wondering this myself.
I sometimes train with a couple of friends in our own little dojo, and the three of us have very different styles.

:triangle: Ninijitsu, :square: KungFu and :circle: Aikido.
Good fun, but I wouldn't go near the Ninjitsu chap without a tsuba attached... Its such a violent art and with knuckles exposed they seem to become a target for students in that art.

I use them whenever I can, even in class: but it does make bokken that much more difficult to carry around...

[OwlMatt]

I personally like my bokken to have some weight to them. In my (admittedly meager) experience, those bokken which can accommodate a tsuba tend to have thinner blades and therefore are usually lighter than I like them.

There is no rule at my dojo against using bokken with tsuba, but I use an Iwama-style bokken without a tsuba for this reason.

[graham christian]

I would say very simply that a tsuba makes you lazy. Learning how to protect your hands and knuckles etc. is all part of the training.

I would even extend this to any form of padding or armour meaning the down side is you get complacent and thus feel that part of your body is protected.

Regards.G.

[Chris Covington]

Wow this thread is 10 years old. Interesting.

Some schools such as Itto-ryu use the tsuba in their kata. Other school such as Jikishinkage-ryu do not (well at least not until kodachi anyway). If you don't use it why put it on there?

It seems that "aikiken" has a very broad meaning like kenjutsu or jujutsu and what you do depends on your teacher and your training. I've noticed many aikiken systems allow the students to use any bokuto they want, and they are often made out of exotic woods. More formalized fencing systems could not allow that. For example if you tried to use a Yagyu Shinkage-ryu bokuto (thin as a toothpick) for Jikishinkage-ryu (the bokuto is like a very thick axe handle) you'd have a lot of broken bokuto. Stamp that and reverse it and you could never train with the speed and accuracy you'd need for the kata.

I would just do what my teacher told me was right. When in Rome do as the Visigoths do. No wait...

[lbb]

I would say very simply that a tsuba makes you lazy. Learning how to protect your hands and knuckles etc. is all part of the training.

I would even extend this to any form of padding or armour meaning the down side is you get complacent and thus feel that part of your body is protected.

Regards.G.

I guess that means that all the bushi who used tsuba and armor were lazy and complacent.

[Cliff Judge]

Bokken with tsuba just suck. It's either a flimsy piece of plastic or leather that is pointless, or if you really need a tsuba, its a bulky piece of wood that pulls the center of gravity of the bokken down towards your hands.

Unless I am doing some type of training that explicitly requires a tsuba I don't use one, and whenever i think I am doing some type of training that explicitly requires one, it later turns out that i did not.

[OwlMatt]

I guess that means that all the bushi who used tsuba and armor were lazy and complacent.

This is pretty much what I was thinking when I read Graham's post. Pretty ignorant assertion being made there, I think. One of the best (and least lazy) sword instructors I know uses a bokken with a tsuba.

[graham christian]

This is pretty much what I was thinking when I read Graham's post. Pretty ignorant assertion being made there, I think. One of the best (and least lazy) sword instructors I know uses a bokken with a tsuba.

Then I suggest both you and Mary take more time to think about it.

Then again, maybe you could train in suits of armour.

Regards.G.

[Keith Larman]

Oh, dear lord.

Graham, I've trained for decades in aikido and never had a significant hit to my hands training without tsuba. I've also trained with others in other styles as well as people in traditional sword arts. Some of them train with tsuba. In some of those styles I would have received serious injuries to my hands had I *not* had the tsuba in place. Because they do things differently. Not just techniques, but how they train.

The bottom line is that is just depends. It has nothing to do with laziness. Maybe in your astral plane it does, but in my experience nothing could be further from the truth.

[JO]

I prefer using my buokken with its tsuba. I like the feel and the obligation to stay on the handle. But I can, and sometimes do, remove it. especially when training with a group that mostly don't use it.

The design considerations mentioned don't hold if you shop around. i have a hefty large enhanced hickory aikiken from Kingfisher that I had fitted with the bamboo tsuba which looks good on the bokken and is very functional (thick and solid).

This is what you need if you do those paired exercises in Chiba's style where the strike is landed against the hand/tsuba.

[Gerardo Torres]

I agree with Keith. In my experience the use of tsuba depends on what and with whom you're training. Your sword teacher should be able to explain and demonstrate why you need a tsuba or not. Even within the same style, you might find that for some parts of the curriculum you use bokuto with tsuba, for some you don't (different bokuto, no tsuba). It depends on what you're training. Some training is inherently more dangerous to the hands, or might need a tsuba for other reasons. Then again sometimes you need to put on some armor to train certain things at a certain level. I've had a bunch of those cheap plastic tsuba broken... better than breaking my fingers :D. I have a bunch of plastic tsuba in my bag, I just replace them (maybe I need to get a fancy leather or metal one). :o

[graham christian]

Oh, dear lord.

Graham, I've trained for decades in aikido and never had a significant hit to my hands training without tsuba. I've also trained with others in other styles as well as people in traditional sword arts. Some of them train with tsuba. In some of those styles I would have received serious injuries to my hands had I *not* had the tsuba in place. Because they do things differently. Not just techniques, but how they train.

The bottom line is that is just depends. It has nothing to do with laziness. Maybe in your astral plane it does, but in my experience nothing could be further from the truth.

Keith. Severe injuries? Sounds like bad training if that's the case.

I have no doubt you have done what you say and thus that is your experience.

I suggest you too read what I said again.

There are times and places where it would be 'helpful' to use a tsuba. Limited. Your example fits to the degree that you din't know or have the experience of that particular sword art.

Bottom line actually is it can and ususally does lead to complacency whether consciously or subconsciously. Unfortunately if you always train with one then one day you won't have one and only then will you understand what I mean.

Reality my friend.

Once again I pose a view where people have to look at something they haven't considered before, ie: the downside of so called protection.

Regards.G.

[Keith Larman]

Graham, have you considered that the training with the tsuba allows them to do things that otherwise would be dangerous? Therefore it allows them to do more. And it allows them to train with the weapon the bokken is ostensibly standing in for -- namely a katana.

Of course there are many who don't wish to train outside their comfort level. Or to experience more direct aspects of martial training. To generalize and call it "laziness" is simply insulting to many who damned well know the difference. I've been on the receiving end of incredibly intense matched bokken work without the tsuba in place where the extremely high level instructor (thankfully) had the control to not hurt me. But it also changed the dynamics of the encounter. Doing it again with a bokken properly fitted with the tsuba changed it dramatically allowing it to be done at full speed and intensity.

[graham christian]

Graham, have you considered that the training with the tsuba allows them to do things that otherwise would be dangerous? Therefore it allows them to do more. And it allows them to train with the weapon the bokken is ostensibly standing in for -- namely a katana.

Of course there are many who don't wish to train outside their comfort level. Or to experience more direct aspects of martial training. To generalize and call it "laziness" is simply insulting to many who damned well know the difference. I've been on the receiving end of incredibly intense matched bokken work without the tsuba in place where the extremely high level instructor (thankfully) had the control to not hurt me. But it also changed the dynamics of the encounter. Doing it again with a bokken properly fitted with the tsuba changed it dramatically allowing it to be done at full speed and intensity.

A good point made in the first paragraph. A good example of when it is useful, as long as those using live blades are responsible and quite competent.

To some experienced folk it may come across as insulting and to other experienced folk it may make them smile and be a pleasant reminder.

I too have been on the receiving end but as to using a tsuba because of it? Well, it certainly would change the dynamics but so would not being allowed to use one.

Each time the level of intensity as you put it is increased then it may be useful to use one but you won't know if you can protect your own hands or wrists until you can do the same without one.

Reliance on it therefore does lead to complacency and laziness.

Therefore I would put it in the category of a temporary aide.

Therefore I will also stand corrected on my first sentence for any so called 'offended' folk and restate it as: Reliance or using a tsuba as standard procedure leads to lazyness and complcency.

Regards.G.

[lbb]

Then I suggest both you and Mary take more time to think about it.

My first experience with bokken training was when I started training shindo muso ryu jodo with George Sawyer in, I think, 1993 or 1994...I'm not sure. We used tsuba, always. How much "more time" would you suggest?

Then again, maybe you could train in suits of armour.

Then again, maybe you could be a little less arrogant...but I doubt it.

Passive-aggressive comeback in 3...2...

[graham christian]

I guess that means that all the bushi who used tsuba and armor were lazy and complacentI

How's that?

[sakumeikan]

If you have ever been to a Chiba Sensei seminar where he taught bokken you probably have tsuba on your bokken today. He does a technique (I believe its called tsuri otoshi) where the attacker does a shomen and you do a slightly quicker shomen while pulling your hips. When learning this you get hit a lot OVER the tsuba, I wouldn't even want to try it without a tsuba.
Hi,
For what its worth Chiba Sensei doing tsuri otoshi, kiri otoshi against someone with no tsuba is not a good idea for the recipient of Chiba Senseis waza. Even with a tsuba one can easily get hit on the hand.
Of course you have to be able to respond to the attack and not rely on a tsuba. Learning to absorb the force applied by tori with ones total body is the trick.One needs to relax and try to neutralise the power of the strike.Even with a padded shinai one can still receive a stout whack on the knuckles if you are not careful.Motto-do not get hit!! Cheers, Joe.

[sakumeikan]

I would say very simply that a tsuba makes you lazy. Learning how to protect your hands and knuckles etc. is all part of the training.

I would even extend this to any form of padding or armour meaning the down side is you get complacent and thus feel that part of your body is protected.

Regards.G.
Dear Graham,
Sorry to diasgree with you here.Using a tsuba is using common sense.How do you arrive at the conclusion that it makes you lazy and complacent?I agree that you have to learn how to protect your hands etc, but while your students are learning this process do you advocate a policy wherby a junior student get his/her knuckles wacked?I think not -hence the use of the tsuba. cheers,Joe.

[graham christian]

Dear Graham,
Sorry to diasgree with you here.Using a tsuba is using common sense.How do you arrive at the conclusion that it makes you lazy and complacent?I agree that you have to learn how to protect your hands etc, but while your students are learning this process do you advocate a policy wherby a junior student get his/her knuckles wacked?I think not -hence the use of the tsuba. cheers,Joe.

Hi Joe.
I don't mind disagreement. I will answer though.

Firstly I don't do dedicated bokken classes. I use it to demonstrate certain Aikido principles and allow students to learn certain principles of the sword.

Secondly I have done myself though. It may surprise you but I personally would not allow it except in certain situations as mentioned above.

Now, how do I arrive at these conclusions?

First is through my experience. In the threads above I have acknowledged others conclusions based on their experience which some have enthusiastically described to make their point.

My experience is the opposite to theirs so hence an 'apparent' opposing viewpoint. I was taught to never use one and thus through that experience could leave it there as the sole reason for my view.

I was told how and why which was all down to what I tried to explain in the previous posts, it leads to complacency.

Along with these explanations I was lectured on past battles and encounters in history from the view of where combatants got used to their armour or protection doing it's job so that when they come across a rival, another army etc. who could see how that protection was actually a weakness they then got thoroughly defeated.

The very basic and most common example of this complacency is from the view of bringing about bad habits. The most blatant being the person hasn't learned to move properly because he didn't have to.

Maybe I had a better teacher than most for by seeing the reasoning and examples given here I only see teachers who would crush your knuckles if you didn't use one. I hope this is people exaggerating otherwise I only see an idiotic teacher I'm afraid. My teacher would wrap the knuckles often and anyone not willing to face that was not considered ready for that training. However, there was no blood spilt and not crushed or broken bones ever.

Let me add another point here, my elbows got hit almost as often so does that mean people should wear elbow pads?

My personal opinion is I'm afraid it's all down to bad teaching. Striking someone without damaging them takes great self control and great weapon control and with that you should be able to point out waht was out to the student so that they can see what was wrong and know what to work on to correct.

With this approach I see no need for tsuba.

Regards.G.

[graham christian]

Joe.
I must tell you about one incident that happened only a couple of months ago.

I had a visitor who had asked to train just to see so to speak. Near the end of the lesson he had enquired about the bokken so I was explaining it to him and he picked up a jo telling me he was 'good' with it.

I should have seen it coming for he had tried a few things during the lesson but suddenly he launched a full blown attack diagonally cutting to one side and as I met it switching to the opposite continuously. I was taken by surprise and found myself going backwards. As i recovered my composure I carried on the same defence walking foreward until I saw an opening. that ended that.

I did however get hit on the knuckle of my little finger on the right hand once. If I had had the slightest worry about getting hit in such a way I would have failed in what I was doing I have no doubt.

The strangest thing about the whole incident for me was me, my attitude. He had broken all the rules of the dojo and etiquette and also tried to actually harm me yet I was grateful for want of a better word. I had allowed it for one lesson in order to teach him a valuable lesson and was pleased with the result.

Such is life.

Regards.G.

[Cliff Judge]

Hi,
For what its worth Chiba Sensei doing tsuri otoshi, kiri otoshi against someone with no tsuba is not a good idea for the recipient of Chiba Senseis waza. Even with a tsuba one can easily get hit on the hand.
Of course you have to be able to respond to the attack and not rely on a tsuba. Learning to absorb the force applied by tori with ones total body is the trick.One needs to relax and try to neutralise the power of the strike.Even with a padded shinai one can still receive a stout whack on the knuckles if you are not careful.Motto-do not get hit!! Cheers, Joe.

This kind of supports what Graham is saying though. Nobody would get hit in the hands particularly hard if you trained at a speed and intensity level you could handle. People get hurt when they get sloppy, and that should tell you to slow down and work on precision.

[Keith Larman]

This kind of supports what Graham is saying though. Nobody would get hit in the hands particularly hard if you trained at a speed and intensity level you could handle. People get hurt when they get sloppy, and that should tell you to slow down and work on precision.

But I think you and Graham are missing a critical point here. Swords have tsuba in "real life" and some techniques utilize the tsuba as part of the waza. Saying it is lazy or going too fast or sloppy *totally* misses the point and is frankly ignorant of the variety of things done in various sword arts and styles.

[Richard Stevens]

If your sword work doesn't require the tsuba for specific techniques or protection I don't see the need for it. From the Aikiken I've observed it doesn't seem particularly necessary. However, in the arts I practice, if I were to remove my tsuba prior to kumitachi I would have broken knuckles.

[Cliff Judge]

But I think you and Graham are missing a critical point here. Swords have tsuba in "real life" and some techniques utilize the tsuba as part of the waza. Saying it is lazy or going too fast or sloppy *totally* misses the point and is frankly ignorant of the variety of things done in various sword arts and styles.

Keith, I know what you are talking about. I've done a bit of Itto ryu, I watch friends practice Jikishinkage ryu, and Saotome Sensei will every now and then dig out some aikiken waza that calls for entering, catching your partner's blade on your tsuba, unbalancing and throwing them.

it did not sound to me as though Joe was referring to techniques that actually use the tsuba though, it sounded like he was talking about techniques where your target is your partner's wrist, and the tsuba is being used to prevent the technique.

if you are practicing a technique where you cut the wrist or fingers or what have you, and your partner is relying on their tsuba to prevent their hands from getting broken, I don't understand what you are both trying to learn there. Uke is not letting tori learn how to hit the target, tori is hurting uke when he successfully performs the technique. Its a lose-lose situation there. I can't believe that's actually what's happening.

But still, if you are trying to learn how to use a tsuba, then they are appropriate.

If, however, you are relying on a tsuba to prevent your hands and fingers from being hurt during sword practice, then you are training badly. Get kote or hockey gloves or something.

[lbb]

If, however, you are relying on a tsuba to prevent your hands and fingers from being hurt during sword practice, then you are training badly. Get kote or hockey gloves or something.

I don't get it. How is using kote or hockey gloves to protect your hands any different from using a tsuba for the same thing...which, help me out with this, is what the tsuba is designed to do?

Honestly, I really think some people are just trying to find fault with others' practice here...while, in general, being ignorant of what they're talking about. Not saying you specifically, Cliff, but this thread, wow.

[Cliff Judge]

I don't get it. How is using kote or hockey gloves to protect your hands any different from using a tsuba for the same thing...which, help me out with this, is what the tsuba is designed to do?

Honestly, I really think some people are just trying to find fault with others' practice here...while, in general, being ignorant of what they're talking about. Not saying you specifically, Cliff, but this thread, wow.

I often screw up the process of articulating what i am trying to say. it certainly does look like I was criticizing the type of practice Joe was describing, but ultimately I have not trained with Chiba Sensei and I don't know much about what he was describing. I suspect his characterization of that type of training was tilted towards his own badassness.

But still: once again, if you are training how to use a tsuba in some way, then you need a tsuba. I am talking about techniques where you use the tsuba to deflect or catch the striking sword's blade, perhaps as a means of taking them off balance and throwing them or something like that.

However, I do think there is something wrong with your training if you are relying on your bokken's tsuba to protect your hands from sloppy or imprecise technique that is not supposed to involve the tsuba.

A general example is where your maai is too small, or your cut is too shallow, and somebody's fingers get tapped. Somebody screwed something up, so do you want to ignore the mistake, or fix it? If you go "whatever!" and keep hacking away at each other, I think that really is lazy.

The description of Chiba Sensei's kiri otoshi is interesting because it doesn't sound like you are supposed to strike your partner on the tsuba, you are trying to hit their wrist. So in this case, it sounds like you want the tsuba there so you learn how to hit the wrist instead. But Joe implied that the tsuba prevents your hand from getting injured by the technique, which is confusing.

If you want to learn how to hit someone's wrist, kote seem to be indicated. But they are not really protective enough for use with bokken.

[Walter Martindale]

Mary:
I guess that means that all the bushi who used tsuba and armor were lazy and complacent

Graham:
I

How's that?

Is Mary using irony or sarcasm? I sometimes have trouble sorting the different between the two.. Good on ya Mary.

[graham christian]

But I think you and Graham are missing a critical point here. Swords have tsuba in "real life" and some techniques utilize the tsuba as part of the waza. Saying it is lazy or going too fast or sloppy *totally* misses the point and is frankly ignorant of the variety of things done in various sword arts and styles.

Hi Keith.
I do understand that critical point also. It doesn't detract from what I say. It is obviously necessary for such techniques as you describe.

I have observed personally the results of what I am saying ie: people so used to having one that they haven't got a clue what to do when their knuckles keep getting whacked when they haven't.

In these cases they had unawarely become complacent on that point, not their fault as they hadn't been taught. Led into a false sense of security springs to mind as a saying that fits.

Using the word lazy can be a word that shakes a person, can seem harsh, but I assure you it is quite usable for those who want to wake up. You know me on here as someone taught firstly by spiritual principles and Tohei style principles. I also have said how my teacher was old school, quite zen, and he would use such definite terms.

If he found I wasn't keeping centre, keeping one point, keeping zanshin, or even to use too much or sometimes any force he would reprimand in such a way....lazy. Quite a powerful and in the end indisputable word.

However such is that. One thing I also would like to say is my differentiation is to do with training, not combat.

I'm sure all past samurai or knights or whoever did training in their training gear and when they went into battle then wore the appropriate armour.

Meanwhile they could also add into training techniques done with armour or full armour. It all depends on the purpose of that training that day no?

Here's one more lesson I was taught to add to this mix. He would sometimes ask me to attack, however I wanted and I soon learned it was virtually a waste of time for as I went to I was already 'cut' This he described as true sword and that if you ever have to 'touch' swords it's because you are already too late or 'lazy'

Thus no Sparrying of any kind there and the lesson was correct motion defeats the sword albeit that would be very high level and involve no doubt sen no sen etc. When he went into his what we called 'samurai' mode he would say one motion, one cut, finish.

So all in all you are quite right in what you say when you say it depends.

Regards.G.

[lbb]

I often screw up the process of articulating what i am trying to say. it certainly does look like I was criticizing the type of practice Joe was describing, but ultimately I have not trained with Chiba Sensei and I don't know much about what he was describing. I suspect his characterization of that type of training was tilted towards his own badassness.

But still: once again, if you are training how to use a tsuba in some way, then you need a tsuba. I am talking about techniques where you use the tsuba to deflect or catch the striking sword's blade, perhaps as a means of taking them off balance and throwing them or something like that.

However, I do think there is something wrong with your training if you are relying on your bokken's tsuba to protect your hands from sloppy or imprecise technique that is not supposed to involve the tsuba.

A general example is where your maai is too small, or your cut is too shallow, and somebody's fingers get tapped. Somebody screwed something up, so do you want to ignore the mistake, or fix it? If you go "whatever!" and keep hacking away at each other, I think that really is lazy.

You may be overestimating the degree of "protection" that you get from the tsuba in these cases. IME (and fwiw, my teacher learned from one of Chiba Sensei's students, and the practice is as Joe describes), if the attack is successful, believe me, you're not saying "whatever" and continuing to "hack away", as you characterize it. You get, um, feedback. The tsuba prevents serious injury; it doesn't mean you never get hit.

The description of Chiba Sensei's kiri otoshi is interesting because it doesn't sound like you are supposed to strike your partner on the tsuba, you are trying to hit their wrist.

Obviously. Why on earth would you hit an inanimate object that traditionally was made out of metal?

So in this case, it sounds like you want the tsuba there so you learn how to hit the wrist instead. But Joe implied that the tsuba prevents your hand from getting injured by the technique, which is confusing.

What's confusing about it? It keeps you...from getting injured. What's the hard part about that? Help me out here.

If you want to learn how to hit someone's wrist, kote seem to be indicated. But they are not really protective enough for use with bokken.

Since you're fond of kote as a solution to being hit on the wrist, I wonder what you have to say about the use of the tsuba in kendo.

[Cliff Judge]

You may be overestimating the degree of "protection" that you get from the tsuba in these cases. IME (and fwiw, my teacher learned from one of Chiba Sensei's students, and the practice is as Joe describes), if the attack is successful, believe me, you're not saying "whatever" and continuing to "hack away", as you characterize it. You get, um, feedback. The tsuba prevents serious injury; it doesn't mean you never get hit.

Is this the thing we are talking about? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBl0hRG7Uwc) It is what I think we are talking about but I am not sure.

Is the point to hit uke's tsuba, and use that to connect and put your weight on them? In which case this is purely an aiki exercise and it's not an application. Or, are you actually trying to hit their wrist?

If you are trying to hit their wrist, then you shouldn't be hitting the tsuba, right?

If you are trying to hit their wrist, are you trying to hurt them during training? What is the point of the feedback you mention? That is feedback that...what happened exactly?

[Gerardo Torres]

I don't think those who are justifying the use of tsuba are doing so because it offers a "cheat" or easy way out to any exercise or technique, which some are categorizing as "bad practice". The example of somebody going for your wrist and using the tsuba to block it is too limited. If it were that easy maybe the attack or the exercise make no sense in the first place. The tsuba is there, but that's not all that's saving you, imo, except of course when the technique specifically calls for using it -- but that's not what's being argued I believe. Exchanges are often far more complex than that, and sometimes in the middle of a move a weapon might slide towards the hand (I find it happens often against jo) and the tsuba is there to protect the fingers. If we had to slow down and tone down the power to bring those "mistakes" down to zero… it's honestly not worth it, and besides the point.

Like Keith said, real swords have tsuba. There is a wide variety of armored combat situations in classical weapons. I'm not an expert, but the reason for tsuba in some bokuto might be a combination of historical and practical reasons, or maybe it's as simple as having the practitioners use something that resembles the real thing (which have tsuba). Anyway, before making sweeping statements about whether to use it or not I say first consult experts on what is best for what you're trying to do.

How would you draw a sword inconspicuously without a tsuba? Consider that sword work might start with the sword in the scabbard.

Consider that the tsuba might work for you or against you. What can happen at different ranges?

Another thing to consider is how a practice weapon vs. a real weapon behaves on contact. Wood vs. wood, wood vs. metal, and metal vs. metal bounce, deflect and absorb power in completely different ways. Then you have wood weapons tapered with metal against these options. Have you tried all of the these? How is tsuba involved in all these cases?

[Cliff Judge]

If we had to slow down and tone down the power to bring those "mistakes" down to zero… it's honestly not worth it, and besides the point.

Why would it ever be besides the point to hit your target?

[DH]

Deleted

[Keith Larman]

Let me throw something else out. In our main headquarters aikido dojo there is not a single bokuto on the rack with a tsuba. We don't use them. We do aiki-kengi but we do not have anything within our curriculum that utilizes tsuba.

But... We are not training in swordsmanship in our style of aikido, at least not in a comprehensive way. We are training in Aikido and use the kengi to inform our movements, to train our bodies, to train our minds.

That said, we also emphasize effective cuts. Effective movement. I have even hosted an event in my backyard where I lent a number of very highly ranked instructors my personal shinken and let them cut tatami all afternoon. It was great fun, but the point was serious. It was about confirming things about cutting form, about distance, about a lot of things. Again, trying to keep things more "true" to the source.

But... We do not use tsuba there.

So I understand where some of you are coming from, at least I think I do.

But I would never make some general statement that using a tsuba is laziness. Maybe for those who are already lazy and sloppy in their practice, but that's like saying wearing proper eye protection with power equipment makes you careless. Maybe if you're an idiot, sure. Otherwise it is simply a good idea. It just depends on what you're doing. And that is the point here.

There are a vast number of things I've seen from a variety of styles that utilize that tsuba. Be it for stopping someone riding down the blade. Using that connection in grappling over the sword to control and/or throw. Using the tsuba as part of a pressure point in a leveraging move. Not to mention the purely practical aspect of how you release a katana from a tight saya for the draw without having to use two hands.

The point I'm trying to make is that the tsuba is one part of a large topic. For some the tsuba is integral to practice. That doesn't mean it is used all the time, but it is part of the tool and as such has a role at various times. The sort of casual statements that started this thread about laziness or sloppiness end up reading as being dismissive of the entire "operating system" of other styles. Heck, even within some styles of aikido that tsuba becomes an issue.

I've got a photo around somewhere with Toby Threadgill with the point of his bokken on my forehead. I had just tried to tsuki him with him holding his sword in a way that looked like I should have been able to get him. In the blink of an eye he managed to deflect my bokken and set that tip on my face. I've seen him demonstrate a *lot* of very interesting deflections and redirections with the bokuto. Incidentally they use tsuba on their training weapons.

I have also seen groups to the same with habiki (unsharpened real blades). And on a few occasions with the real deal.

If you are limiting discussion to simple practice of aikiken without much in the way of contact at full speed, sure, tsuba are often not used. But remember that aikiken generally lacks a huge part of a larger syllabus of techniques. For some of those things a tsuba isn't just a good idea, it is a necessity. Because swords have tsuba. And they use them for a variety of purposes.

And fwiw have you guys ever heard the term "kirikomi"? This is a so-called "battle scar" and can be found on blades and sometimes on tsuba. I have a 16th century wakizashi with two significant kirikomi on the mune. Sword polishers know *not* to remove these as they are signs of the history of the sword as well as a sign that the sword survived the cuts and impacts. The same is true of tsuba. Some tsuba have cut kirikomi on the mimi (rim). Those are either signs of the original maker testing the tsuba or of an actual "battle scar".

During the early years of sword manufacture many prized swords were fit with what were called "tosho" or "katchushi" tsuba. Tosho were tsuba made from iron by a sword smith. Katchushi were tsuba made by armorers (often hard to distinguish from tosho). The point was that these things were made to be tough and were considered important parts of the sword. Not just decorative, but functional parts of the sword.

Okay, I'm done now... Feeling much better.

[graham christian]

Graham
You need to adopt a different tone or you will continue to lose what credibility you have left. Do you really think you have something to offer that people have not looked at before in weapons...wow!
Have you ever trained in Classical weapons?
Are you aware that the intensity and edge that classical weapons bring with them?
Do you have a clue as to the experiences of some of the people you are talking to?

"Severe injuries? Sounds like bad training if that's the case."
You don't know what you're talking about, Graham. I am not attacking you personally just recognizing a lack of basic sound information to the topic. I could line up authors and living national treasures, and Menkyo's and your own founder, but I growing increasingly convinced you would be unmoved.
There is a reality that you are totally unaware of in budo. You need to recognize that there are people here that you cannot even have a conversation with-you'd best just listen.
At least recognize there are people here who are your betters in budo. At least its safe here. I can't imagine you in a dojo with any number of about a hundred people I know from here. There is nothing you could do to stop them..nothing at all. Have some humility, man. It is they who are being patient with you.
Word to the wise...I hope.
Dan

Dan. I asked one question which the ones answering on the whole seem either unwilling to look at or unaware of. This is not a matter of those you mention or superiority. My question and indeed point is all about the possible downside to using tsuba with bokken I might add, not samurai sword.

Those who are as you say will recognise this point. It doesn't mean any more than what it says.

Tell me, do you think relying on tsuba to protect your hands always is right? Do you think the primary purpose for the tsuba was protection of the hand? Thirdly do you think that relying on it in bokken work to protect the hands could lead to something untoward?

By the way the main examples given on here were of my teacher and as I have said before he was great with the sword.

Regards.G.

[Richard Stevens]

Maybe someone should ask Kuroda what he thinks?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HrII2VUgXI&feature=related

[Gerardo Torres]

Why would it ever be besides the point to hit your target?
That's not what I meant.

Again, taking the limited example of somebody trying to cut or strike your wrist, a defensive move would involve proper use of the blade, body movement, a possible counter, and other factors. The tsuba might or might not be involved. My point is that while the tsuba might offer some protection, it's besides the point arguing that it should be there or not because it's not an all-defining factor in every situation (it depends on what you're trying to do). Besides, the other person also has a tsuba, so if it offers such a distinct "artificial" protective advantage as some claim here, wouldn't that make it a fair match?

I don't know Chiba's sword techniques so you'd have to go ask those who do why they're using tsuba. That said, the one example shown in the video is not the only way your wrist could be targeted. In many cases, the tsuba is not going to save you or help you much or at all.

If your wrist attack is completely compromised by your opponent having a sword with a tsuba... what kind of sword training is that? It shouldn't matter. Any proper style or technique would consider the presence or absence of tsuba from the onset; so again, it's besides the point arguing that it should be there or not.

[graham christian]

Hi Keith.
Yes you are correct in thinking I am talking training and bokken. Far be it for me to question or think I have anywhere near your knowledge on swords, types, history etc. as I would assume it is one of your specialist fields of study.

Regards.G.

[Cliff Judge]

That's not what I meant.

Again, taking the limited example of somebody trying to cut or strike your wrist, a defensive move would involve proper use of the blade, body movement, a possible counter, and other factors. The tsuba might or might not be involved. My point is that while the tsuba might offer some protection, it's besides the point arguing that it should be there or not because it's not an all-defining factor in every situation (it depends on what you're trying to do). Besides, the other person also has a tsuba, so if it offers such a distinct "artificial" protective advantage as some claim here, wouldn't that make it a fair match?

I don't know Chiba's sword techniques so you'd have to go ask those who do why they're using tsuba. That said, the one example shown in the video is not the only way your wrist could be targeted. In many cases, the tsuba is not going to save you or help you much or at all.

If your wrist attack is completely compromised by your opponent having a sword with a tsuba... what kind of sword training is that? It shouldn't matter. Any proper style or technique would consider the presence or absence of tsuba from the onset; so again, it's besides the point arguing that it should be there or not.

Sorry! I thought you meant that slowing down and working on precision was the thing that didn't matter. I find myself in agreement with what you are saying here, so I obviously didn't grasp what you were saying originally.

[lbb]

Is this the thing we are talking about? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBl0hRG7Uwc) It is what I think we are talking about but I am not sure.

Not really. Look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzDJdKl9PRc at about 24 seconds.

Is the point to hit uke's tsuba

I believe I already explained that it is not.

If you are trying to hit their wrist, then you shouldn't be hitting the tsuba, right?

How would you accomplish that, from that angle, when doing a proper cut? Perhaps by using a rubber sword?

If you are trying to hit their wrist, are you trying to hurt them during training? What is the point of the feedback you mention? That is feedback that...what happened exactly?

If you are doing empty-hand practice, and uke attacks with tsuki, is uke trying to hurt his/her partner during training?

[lbb]

Tell me, do you think relying on tsuba to protect your hands always is right?

Tell me, have you stopped beating your wife yet, Graham?

You continually reframe the question to misstate others' position. This is passive-aggressive and intellectually dishonest.

[Cliff Judge]

Not really. Look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzDJdKl9PRc at about 24 seconds.

lol let him have it with the "behind the back" video clip! That'll teach him to ask too many questions! :crazy: :freaky: :eek:

[graham christian]

Tell me, have you stopped beating your wife yet, Graham?

You continually reframe the question to misstate others' position. This is passive-aggressive and intellectually dishonest.

Woah, so what's that? Active aggressive? It appears your tongue is a sword and it needs a tsuba. You seem to want to prove how you must have and use a tsuba.

The op is why no tsuba. When you can give such possible reasons then we can talk.

Regards.G.

[Fred Little]

Why no tsuba?

"Because that's not the way we do it in this school."

Beyond that, I would note that a decent tsuba will cost as much as a bokuto and more than a bargain judo-style keiko-gi, and also note that aikido has had an orientation toward keeping entry-level equipment prices low for 60+ years. Materialist explanation often misses part of the story. That's why I started with the oft-heard quotation above.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Janet Rosen]

Why no tsuba?

"Because that's not the way we do it in this school."

Beyond that, I would note that a decent tsuba will cost as much as a bokuto and more than a bargain judo-style keiko-gi, and also note that aikido has had an orientation toward keeping entry-level equipment prices low for 60+ years. Materialist explanation often misses part of the story. That's why I started with the oft-heard quotation above.

Hope this helps.

Fred

:)

[sakumeikan]

Not really. Look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzDJdKl9PRc at about 24 seconds.

proper cut? Perhaps by using a rubber sword?

Mary /Cliff,
The vids you quote are basic exercises in Chiba Senseis school.Kiri otoshi, tsuri otoshi and a couple of others whose names I cannot remember at present are done.The main one done atJodan /Chudan , gedan level is kiri otoshi. Uke is Robert Savoca.When we used to train in these movements some people wore hockey gloves to protect wrist, knuckles.They also used gloves when doing Jo work.Maki otoshi, otoshi tsuki in particular could give you a rap on the hands if you were not careful.One of my mates sustained a very swollen hand acting as Uke doing this waza. Cheers, Joe

[sakumeikan]

I often screw up the process of articulating what i am trying to say. it certainly does look like I was criticizing the type of practice Joe was describing, but ultimately I have not trained with Chiba Sensei and I don't know much about what he was describing. I suspect his characterization of that type of training was tilted towards his own badassness.

But still: once again, if you are training how to use a tsuba in some way, then you need a tsuba. I am talking about techniques where you use the tsuba to deflect or catch the striking sword's blade, perhaps as a means of taking them off balance and throwing them or something like that.

However, I do think there is something wrong with your training if you are relying on your bokken's tsuba to protect your hands from sloppy or imprecise technique that is not supposed to involve the tsuba.

A general example is where your maai is too small, or your cut is too shallow, and somebody's fingers get tapped. Somebody screwed something up, so do you want to ignore the mistake, or fix it? If you go "whatever!" and keep hacking away at each other, I think that really is lazy.

The description of Chiba Sensei's kiri otoshi is interesting because it doesn't sound like you are supposed to strike your partner on the tsuba, you are trying to hit their wrist. So in this case, it sounds like you want the tsuba there so you learn how to hit the wrist instead. But Joe implied that the tsuba prevents your hand from getting injured by the technique, which is confusing.

If you want to learn how to hit someone's wrist, kote seem to be indicated. But they are not really protective enough for use with bokken.
Cliff,
Its difficult to put into written form what kiri otoshi is within the ryu of Chiba Sensei.I can assure you that in no way is it trying to be a bad ass.In fact care and attention is the key factor .However if one
decides by mutual consent to raise the level of the game[usually experienced guys do this] as a safety precaution tsuba are used.We also use a padded shinai which does the same job as a bokuto ,but needless to say does not cause so much potential for
sustaining a hit on the knuckle.If you look carefully at Chiba Sensei you will note he cuts well down on the hilt of ukes bokuto .Watch the vid when he does this slowly.You will see he takes ukes wrist area.By using a hip twist ,hamni , full extension and with a forward motion in the cut Tori in effect controls uke.
Cheers, Joe.

[Keith Larman]

Why no tsuba?

"Because that's not the way we do it in this school."

Beyond that, I would note that a decent tsuba will cost as much as a bokuto and more than a bargain judo-style keiko-gi, and also note that aikido has had an orientation toward keeping entry-level equipment prices low for 60+ years. Materialist explanation often misses part of the story. That's why I started with the oft-heard quotation above.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Yah, so many simple questions I had when I first started with sword crafts were answered that way. Only because later when I learned more I found the questions actually made little sense. Funny how that works.

And I love Kim Taylor's stitched leather tsuba for jodo practice. Those things are beasts...

[kewms]

I would say very simply that a tsuba makes you lazy. Learning how to protect your hands and knuckles etc. is all part of the training.

It would be equally accurate (or inaccurate) to say that *not* having a tsuba causes your partners to pull their strikes to avoid injuring you. Learning how to deal with realistic strikes is part of the training, too.

I once had a partner hit my (wooden) tsuba hard enough to split it in half. I'm pretty happy that the tsuba took the blow instead of my hand.

I've also seen quite a few techniques where the tsuba plays an important role. Certainly they are considered essential equipment in both my current and previous dojos.

So I'd say a blanket statement like yours says more about you than about the value (or not) of a tsuba.

Katherine

[kewms]

Anyone who would use a live blade without a tsuba, please raise your hand...

Yeah, didn't think so.

Katherine

[graham christian]

It would be equally accurate (or inaccurate) to say that *not* having a tsuba causes your partners to pull their strikes to avoid injuring you. Learning how to deal with realistic strikes is part of the training, too.

I once had a partner hit my (wooden) tsuba hard enough to split it in half. I'm pretty happy that the tsuba took the blow instead of my hand.

I've also seen quite a few techniques where the tsuba plays an important role. Certainly they are considered essential equipment in both my current and previous dojos.

So I'd say a blanket statement like yours says more about you than about the value (or not) of a tsuba.

Katherine

I hope it does both.

Regards.G.

[Michael Hackett]

We don't use tsuba in our bokken work as our aiki ken is intended to relate to open hand technique and movement. One of my dojo mates is a Chiba Sensei sandan and he is the only one in the dojo with a tsuba on his bokken. I asked him about it and he explained that it protected the hands and fingers during bokken waza in their practice. He also said that he personally wore hockey gloves when doing weapons work as protection for his fingers and hands. He explained that weapons work was very vigorous and often resulted in smacked fingers and hands, hence the extra protection. He is great fun to train with and he has yet to strike my hands - a testament to his skill and not mine. From that limited perspective it would appear that we don't use tsuba because our practice doesn't require it, and that it would be very valuable to have one if training in a Chiba school.

[graham christian]

Two points to add, views of mine, and those with other views doesn't mean they have to be offended.

One is that from my view any swordsman in practice who cannot control his sword to the point if stopping it at the strike point is not very good. (whether 5mph or 90mph) Therefore with that amount of discipline and skill there is never the need for a tsuba. This ability to control the bokken, or sword for that matter, should be one of the primary aims before anyone tries 'fast high level sparring'

Secondly I say that the primary purpose of a tsuba is Not the protection of the hands. That's not how it came in to being and not therefore what it was for. They had gauntlets for that.

Regards.G.

[kewms]

One is that from my view any swordsman in practice who cannot control his sword to the point if stopping it at the strike point is not very good. (whether 5mph or 90mph) Therefore with that amount of discipline and skill there is never the need for a tsuba. This ability to control the bokken, or sword for that matter, should be one of the primary aims before anyone tries 'fast high level sparring'

Secondly I say that the primary purpose of a tsuba is Not the protection of the hands. That's not how it came in to being and not therefore what it was for. They had gauntlets for that.

A few points.

First, gauntlets were a battlefield accoutrement. You wouldn't wear them on the street, or to a social gathering. The samurai class wore their swords *everywhere."

Second, without a tsuba, the hands become an immediate and obvious target. Sliding down the opponent's blade disarms him or takes his fingers off, rather than trapping you against his guard. That alone makes a significant difference in strategy.

And finally, no matter how good your control is, accidents happen. They happen more often as you approach your personal limits, but if you never test those limits, it's difficult to expand them.

Katherine

[graham christian]

A few points.

First, gauntlets were a battlefield accoutrement. You wouldn't wear them on the street, or to a social gathering. The samurai class wore their swords *everywhere."

Second, without a tsuba, the hands become an immediate and obvious target. Sliding down the opponent's blade disarms him or takes his fingers off, rather than trapping you against his guard. That alone makes a significant difference in strategy.

And finally, no matter how good your control is, accidents happen. They happen more often as you approach your personal limits, but if you never test those limits, it's difficult to expand them.

Katherine

That's fine you say that so let's clarify.

Whenever real swords are mentioned you enter the field of battle so gauntlets were hand protection. In the field of battle gauntlets were hand protection and the tsuba was not.

How social gatherings or samurai class fit in I fail to see.

Real swords however is a side issue for it is obvious that if I say no tsuba then I am talking bokken for you can't get a real sword without one. (unless you want to be pedantic then you could find that there are 'some' real katana without them.)

On your second point of hands becoming a target well you say it as if that's bad. I would say that's good 'strategy.' I would also say that bokken sliding down bokken is the result of bad movement. So we differ there, thats fine.

Lastly on your final point I will say this. Doing things based on accidents happen to me is merely a reflection of current unbudolike society. It sounds so reasonable yet can be unknowingly detrimental. Using things to protect or even do a person loses how to do it them-self. Washing machine breaks down, person don't know what to do.

So that last point is actually the one I hoped some might look at without me having to explain in detail.

Basically dependancy. Depend on washing machine, it breaks, lost. Depend on tsuba, one day no tsuba, lost. Depend on sword, one day no sword, lost.

Only on seeing this will a person realize there's more to it than meets the eye. The highest form of sword is empty hands. No sword, no tsuba, no excuse.

By the way I would say the primary reason for the tsuba on a sword is for when it is used in battle or practice to thrust into something like a spear. In this case it would stop your hand slipping onto the blade.

Personally, and I emphasize personally, I would say I see no other reason for it. Also personally I would say that a person pushing themself to their limits includes the point I made on control rather than excuses losing it for losing it shows beyond their limits so those who boast of such things thinking it's something good I can but smile.

Regards.G.

[mathewjgano]

Lastly on your final point I will say this. Doing things based on accidents happen to me is merely a reflection of current unbudolike society. It sounds so reasonable yet can be unknowingly detrimental.
Sure, and living in a safe neighborhood can have the same effect, but I doubt you'd suggest we should all live in Compton, CA, or move to Afghanistan. The question to my mind isn't whether taking the safer road is more lazy, it's "what's the purpose being engaged?" Every facet of our behavior "ought" ideally have a purpose/reason to it. For example, practicing without tsuba is lazy if you haven't taken the time to replace your rubberband thingy (technical term:D ).
At my school we've done a kind of kirikaeshi which made me very greatful for that piece of wood. Since we didn't know which techniques we would be working on, it was much easier just to leave it on. Plus, I'm of the opinion that it's generally better to develop a good feeling for using bokuto with it on since it can feel constraining if you're not used to it (in my case at least). My personal view is that I should be able to operate the bokuto without having to "choke up on the stick."

In this case it would stop your hand slipping onto the blade.
This doesn't fit with my understanding of how grip should work...but then again, accidents do happen! :p

[mathewjgano]

Although it did occur to me you might not have meant "lazy" by "unbudolike." Nonetheless, I would say accidents are one of the foremost teachers, so strictly speaking it seems like a good idea to "[Do things based on accidents happenning]." I agree it's a bad idea to allow yourself too much slack though.
I can see how "no tsuba" could be a good specific training method too, though. As you said, showing why the blades shouldn't slide unless you specifically want them to slide is pretty useful. If the practice isn't too forceful/vigorous it wouldn't hurt so much, but it would create a visceral connection when contact with the hand is made, which is I think, invaluable, if not entirely crucial, to the budo learning process.

[lbb]

Woah, so what's that? Active aggressive? It appears your tongue is a sword and it needs a tsuba. You seem to want to prove how you must have and use a tsuba.

The op is why no tsuba. When you can give such possible reasons then we can talk.

I'm not really interested in talking to you, to be honest. You started out in this thread judging something you don't know about. When your assertions were refuted, you tried to move the goalposts. When called on that, you blame others. You continually insult and belittle others, cloaking your insults and sneers in newage aphorisms and faux-zel platitudes, and no matter how many times this is pointed out to you, you persist in this incivil behavior. No, I really am not interested in talking to you.

*plonk*

[kewms]

Whenever real swords are mentioned you enter the field of battle

Not true. After the establishment of the Shogunate (1600 AD), there was very little large scale combat in Japan. Rather, swords were much more likely to be used for personal self-defense: on the street, in one's home, or in social disputes.


Real swords however is a side issue for it is obvious that if I say no tsuba then I am talking bokken for you can't get a real sword without one.

If you don't consider real swords relevant to your bokken practice, then exactly what are you studying?


On your second point of hands becoming a target well you say it as if that's bad. I would say that's good 'strategy.' I would also say that bokken sliding down bokken is the result of bad movement. So we differ there, thats fine.

"Good" from the point of view of the attacker, "bad" from the point of view of the person whose hands are exposed. And I would say that understanding bokken-to-bokken sliding is essential, and wonder, again, exactly what you're studying if you don't think so.


Personally, and I emphasize personally, I would say I see no other reason for it. Also personally I would say that a person pushing themself to their limits includes the point I made on control rather than excuses losing it for losing it shows beyond their limits so those who boast of such things thinking it's something good I can but smile.

*shrug* Your practice, your choice.

Katherine

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Not true. After the establishment of the Shogunate (1600 AD), there was very little large scale combat in Japan.
And even before, swords were not the main weapons in the battlefield.

[graham christian]

Ha,ha. You are funny some of you.

Obviously you want to talk about swords. Amazing.

Obviously you don't want to offer any reasons for no tsuba. Equally amazing.

Have fun. G.

[graham christian]

Although it did occur to me you might not have meant "lazy" by "unbudolike." Nonetheless, I would say accidents are one of the foremost teachers, so strictly speaking it seems like a good idea to "[Do things based on accidents happenning]." I agree it's a bad idea to allow yourself too much slack though.
I can see how "no tsuba" could be a good specific training method too, though. As you said, showing why the blades shouldn't slide unless you specifically want them to slide is pretty useful. If the practice isn't too forceful/vigorous it wouldn't hurt so much, but it would create a visceral connection when contact with the hand is made, which is I think, invaluable, if not entirely crucial, to the budo learning process.

I like your logic that accidents are a good teacher but the conclusion?
Not for me.Quite the opposite.

When you have an accident it is telling you something was out. No zanshin or no correct movement or no connection or.......

Now as you already know what they are then the accident tells you you were lazy. To think it's good to have more accidents?

Many places have many accidents and call it real tough training. Lazy. Ill disciplined.

The other point I made earlier is that good control of the 'blade' is primary. To move it fast and stop it at will is primary. Not secondary, not well sometimes, not yeah but when, always.

The first lesson to learn and admit is that when you make a mistake, when you hurt someone 'by accident' you were lazy in one way or another.

I choose this terminology to do with the bokken or any dangerous weapon because from my point of view that is the attitude necessary for you to have with both self and partner with such things if you really want to learn self discipline and self control. Depend on nothing except your ability. Blame nothing except youself.

If you use tsuba fine but everytime yours gets hit then it isn't lucky it's bad movement. If you acknowledge this to yourself then it's all good and you can carry on using tsuba. If you don't look at it that way then you are either unaware that you should or not disciplined enough. Lazy.

Such is my view and such is my view on people who have used tsuba for a while but never questioned it or looked at it in the way I describe above.

The tone of this post Matthew is merely a reflection of the discipline I insist on and not directed at your response or you.

By the way, in your nice safe neighbourhood do you therefore leave your doors open, keys in the car, notes on your front door of your whereabouts? Do you DEPEND on that safe neighbourhood?
No of course you don't and that's my point. If you did what would you call yourself?

Anyway, enough on this topic from me. I'll put my sword away now.

Regards.G.

[kewms]

By the way, in your nice safe neighbourhood do you therefore leave your doors open, keys in the car, notes on your front door of your whereabouts? Do you DEPEND on that safe neighbourhood?

In the small town where my mother lives, people do exactly that.

But if you lock your door and fasten your seatbelt, why is it then laziness to use a tsuba? I trust my partner's control, but I don't *depend* on it to protect my hands.

Katherine

[mathewjgano]

I like your logic that accidents are a good teacher but the conclusion?
Not for me.Quite the opposite.
Well for me the conclusion of the logic is that you learn to make fewer mistakes, not more.

When you have an accident it is telling you something was out. No zanshin or no correct movement or no connection or.......

Now as you already know what they are then the accident tells you you were lazy. To think it's good to have more accidents?

Many places have many accidents and call it real tough training. Lazy. Ill disciplined.
I'm sure many people will call rough training "realistic" or any other number of things while actualy being little more than quick ways to wear out a body. I'm usually the first person to avoid injury for the sake of looking tough. Also, I haven't been to many places, but my experience would suggest that while accidents do definately tell you something was wrong, they don't automatically denote laziness. To my mind there are acceptible thresholds of risk established between training partners based on their combination of ability as well as how far they want to push that ability. Operating within those established norms isn't lazy. The accident isn't proof of laziness, it's proof of a mistake in action. Accidents which might be described as the result of deviating from the established thresholds of intensity would denote laziness or worse. I strive for zero mistakes, but I accept they can happen and take precautions. So far I've yet to hit anyone, despite my acceptance for the idea that mistakes/accidents can be viewed as good teaching moments.

If you use tsuba fine but everytime yours gets hit then it isn't lucky it's bad movement. If you acknowledge this to yourself then it's all good and you can carry on using tsuba. If you don't look at it that way then you are either unaware that you should or not disciplined enough. Lazy.
Not literally every time, like for techniques which are designed to practice using the tsuba purposefully. If you're not trying your best, then you're being lazy. The tsuba is coincidental to that fact of training.

The tone of this post Matthew is merely a reflection of the discipline I insist on and not directed at your response or you.
Sure, it's what you ask of your students and doesn't necessarily need to be adopted by anyone else, and I'm not making a case to suggest it's ok to damage anyone. Our ukemi for the kirikaeshi involves dropping the front hand in case tsuba doesn't do the trick. I've never been hit on the knuckles because I also use tsuba. As my practice got better, the need for tsuba diminished. Most of the techniques I've practiced, the tsuba is just along for the ride. Removing the tsuba is adding risk by removing lines of defense. All other thing being equal, it's adding pressure to the training by removing some of the things used for adding to the protection, which can be viewed as demanding higher standards by creating a degree of risk. I'm sure it's compensated for through a measured degree of intensity based on that.

By the way, in your nice safe neighbourhood do you therefore leave your doors open, keys in the car, notes on your front door of your whereabouts? Do you DEPEND on that safe neighbourhood?
No of course you don't and that's my point. If you did what would you call yourself?

Anyway, enough on this topic from me. I'll put my sword away now.

Regards.G.
In this case I consider the use of tsuba as locking your door even though you live in a safer neighborhood. I'd put my sword away, but all I have at the moment is this pen. Strange that it looks like a keyboard!:crazy: :D
Take care,
Matt

[graham christian]

In the small town where my mother lives, people do exactly that.

But if you lock your door and fasten your seatbelt, why is it then laziness to use a tsuba? I trust my partner's control, but I don't *depend* on it to protect my hands.

Katherine

In my example the tsuba represented the safe town so those people are not relying on the tsuba.

Who said anything about trusting your partner to protect your own hands?

G.

[graham christian]

Well for me the conclusion of the logic is that you learn to make fewer mistakes, not more.

I'm sure many people will call rough training "realistic" or any other number of things while actualy being little more than quick ways to wear out a body. I'm usually the first person to avoid injury for the sake of looking tough. Also, I haven't been to many places, but my experience would suggest that while accidents do definately tell you something was wrong, they don't automatically denote laziness. To my mind there are acceptible thresholds of risk established between training partners based on their combination of ability as well as how far they want to push that ability. Operating within those established norms isn't lazy. The accident isn't proof of laziness, it's proof of a mistake in action. Accidents which might be described as the result of deviating from the established thresholds of intensity would denote laziness or worse. I strive for zero mistakes, but I accept they can happen and take precautions. So far I've yet to hit anyone, despite my acceptance for the idea that mistakes/accidents can be viewed as good teaching moments.

Not literally every time, like for techniques which are designed to practice using the tsuba purposefully. If you're not trying your best, then you're being lazy. The tsuba is coincidental to that fact of training.

Sure, it's what you ask of your students and doesn't necessarily need to be adopted by anyone else, and I'm not making a case to suggest it's ok to damage anyone. Our ukemi for the kirikaeshi involves dropping the front hand in case tsuba doesn't do the trick. I've never been hit on the knuckles because I also use tsuba. As my practice got better, the need for tsuba diminished. Most of the techniques I've practiced, the tsuba is just along for the ride. Removing the tsuba is adding risk by removing lines of defense. All other thing being equal, it's adding pressure to the training by removing some of the things used for adding to the protection, which can be viewed as demanding higher standards by creating a degree of risk. I'm sure it's compensated for through a measured degree of intensity based on that.

In this case I consider the use of tsuba as locking your door even though you live in a safer neighborhood. I'd put my sword away, but all I have at the moment is this pen. Strange that it looks like a keyboard!:crazy: :D
Take care,
Matt

Matthew. You state a case without addressing my questions. Do you rely, depend, on that safe environment?

Do you see that bottom line dependency on own ability and self far, far, exceeds any 'thing' you think protects you.?

Some people would rather not see this because it would show they have been lazy in their thinking.

I would say all top professionals in all walks of life use this attitude. It's what separates the top sportsmen from the rest. They blame no one, they focus purely on their own ability and improving it, and every time they make a mistake they blame themselves and reprimand their self for being lazy. Such is the upper echelons of discipline.

I doubt O'Sensei or his deshi at the time used tsuba on their bokkens. I wonder why?

Anyone can use special circumstances to make a point. A good excuse not to look at the concept.

It's a good topic all of it's own this topic of dependency and laziness and fits especially well in martial arts for that is one of the core things it's meant to teach, self reliance, self discipline. All about self and the lesson that laziness is the result of dependency.

Regards.G.

[kewms]

Who said anything about trusting your partner to protect your own hands?

If you don't use a tsuba, that's exactly what you're doing.

Katherine

[Keith Larman]

Graham:

There's a lovely gentleman who lives in my neighborhood who I see driving to the market occasionally. I'd guess he's in his late 80's or early 90's. I can tell you with certainty that his old car does not require an airbag for him as he drives at a velocity slower than I can walk. Now, we might commend him on his safety record. However, his *driving skills* are not exactly being demonstrated, tested, or improved in any significant way whatsoever...

[mathewjgano]

Matthew. You state a case without addressing my questions. Do you rely, depend, on that safe environment?

Do you see that bottom line dependency on own ability and self far, far, exceeds any 'thing' you think protects you.?

Some people would rather not see this because it would show they have been lazy in their thinking.
In part, I do rely on the safe environment. I try to be alert at all times, but I am definately more alert when walking down an alley at night near Denny Park in Seattle, than in the Beaux Arts Village in Bellevue. Like I said, I always try to maintain awareness of the area around me, but I adjust my attention based on the particulars.
So no, I don't rely on the tsuba to protect me, just as I don't leave my door unlocked in areas I assume are safer. Similarly, I wouldn't remove the lock in order force myself to pay more attention to the door.

I would say all top professionals in all walks of life use this attitude. It's what separates the top sportsmen from the rest. They blame no one, they focus purely on their own ability and improving it, and every time they make a mistake they blame themselves and reprimand their self for being lazy. Such is the upper echelons of discipline.
I believe a little more in the role of happenstance for individual success, but in essence I agree with you here. Motivation and self-determination are key to personal success in anything, be it chess or self-defense.
You're preeching to the choir when it comes to the idea of self-reliance. I think what we disagree on might be the best way to describe it. If all you're saying is it can be useful to not use tsuba to reinforce a serious mindset, then I see no problem. What I disagree with is the idea that laziness is a necessary condition for all accidents. Sometimes it's hard to parse through you laguage, which reflects an ideal strived for more than an absolute reality. When you describe your posts as relating to your standards of teaching it often seems easy to mistake them as admonishing others for not sharing your particular view.
I think I see where you're coming from better now. Thank you for the chance to discuss it.
Take care, Graham,
Matt
p.s. I think Keith's point is a very good one. The question isn't only about safety, it's also about pushing the edge of capability; when that is practiced with serious intent, even with safety in mind, accidents are easier to come about. When approached mindfully, this can still be done in a pretty safe way. I think it's very important for people looking more toward self-defense to practice more like this (i.e. the degree to which the individual wants to focus on this aspect should naturally reflect how vigorous they and their partners are going to practice; how much they are going to "squeeze" into that edge between chaos and order).

[graham christian]

Graham:

There's a lovely gentleman who lives in my neighborhood who I see driving to the market occasionally. I'd guess he's in his late 80's or early 90's. I can tell you with certainty that his old car does not require an airbag for him as he drives at a velocity slower than I can walk. Now, we might commend him on his safety record. However, his *driving skills* are not exactly being demonstrated, tested, or improved in any significant way whatsoever...

Keith. I see your point. Has he not decided to do so himself? He is the driver of the car. He is responsible for his ability and choice. He is exercising that choice according to you with good effect.

The same principles involved are there for those who want to drive fast. They are responsible, not the car, not the windows, not any part of it. They cause any accident not the car for it only does what you cause it to do.

Once again it's all down to the person, nothing else.

Regards.G.

[Keith Larman]

Keith. I see your point. Has he not decided to do so himself? He is the driver of the car. He is responsible for his ability and choice. He is exercising that choice according to you with good effect.

The same principles involved are there for those who want to drive fast. They are responsible, not the car, not the windows, not any part of it. They cause any accident not the car for it only does what you cause it to do.

Once again it's all down to the person, nothing else.

Regards.G.

Well, therein lies the rub. No one is criticizing him for driving slowly. But you are calling those who bother to drive at normal speeds in cars equipped with proper safety equipment lazy or somehow acting irresponsibly for having it. Feel free to poke along at slow speeds completely in your comfort zone. But some of us have a long commute ahead and aren't content to stay that close to home all the time. It doesn't mean we speed irresponsibly, but we might feel that airbags for our children and passengers are a good idea. Just in case.

[graham christian]

In part, I do rely on the safe environment. I try to be alert at all times, but I am definately more alert when walking down an alley at night near Denny Park in Seattle, than in the Beaux Arts Village in Bellevue. Like I said, I always try to maintain awareness of the area around me, but I adjust my attention based on the particulars.
So no, I don't rely on the tsuba to protect me, just as I don't leave my door unlocked in areas I assume are safer. Similarly, I wouldn't remove the lock in order force myself to pay more attention to the door.

I believe a little more in the role of happenstance for individual success, but in essence I agree with you here. Motivation and self-determination are key to personal success in anything, be it chess or self-defense.
You're preeching to the choir when it comes to the idea of self-reliance. I think what we disagree on might be the best way to describe it. If all you're saying is it can be useful to not use tsuba to reinforce a serious mindset, then I see no problem. What I disagree with is the idea that laziness is a necessary condition for all accidents. Sometimes it's hard to parse through you laguage, which reflects an ideal strived for more than an absolute reality. When you describe your posts as relating to your standards of teaching it often seems easy to mistake them as admonishing others for not sharing your particular view.
I think I see where you're coming from better now. Thank you for the chance to discuss it.
Take care, Graham,
Matt
p.s. I think Keith's point is a very good one. The question isn't only about safety, it's also about pushing the edge of capability; when that is practiced with serious intent, even with safety in mind, accidents are easier to come about. When approached mindfully, this can still be done in a pretty safe way. I think it's very important for people looking more toward self-defense to practice more like this (i.e. the degree to which the individual wants to focus on this aspect should naturally reflect how vigorous they and their partners are going to practice; how much they are going to "squeeze" into that edge between chaos and order).

Hi Matthew. Thanks for the considered response.

You summed me up perfectly regarding how what I say can come across.

Keith has been been very easy to communicate with even if we have differing views on this topic.

The point you mention re: capability and pushing boundaries is one we have differing views on also.

The only boundaries you are pushing in my opinion are the boundaries of discipline and control so that equals less accidents.

Ha,ha, I even would put it to you that you have less accidents for that reason alone for inside you know the difference between pushing boundaries and being irresponsible in the name of pushing boundaries.

Regards.G.

[graham christian]

If you don't use a tsuba, that's exactly what you're doing.

Katherine

If that's how you see it then that explains your defence of using one.

Good.

Regards.G.

[Gerardo Torres]

This can go on forever... :hypno: :crazy:

[edshockley]

I have trained under Henry Smith Shihan whose weapons come from Chiba and Sugano primarily and Nizam Taleb who learned weapons from Ichimura, Kobayashi and Nishio. Both of my instructiors don't use suba because they hope to force us to be more responsive to the movement of our uke. I also have trained recurrently for more than a decade with Gerooms Sensei in Ohio and they use suba in the Saotome influenced style. (The same was true at the dojo of Gleeson Sensei). I see merit in both practices but the sword work was more spirited in the Saotome system. Perhaps the wooden suba offers a false sense of security but consistently the katas at these other schools approach the speed and force that is only equaled in the encounters between instructors in my own school. What I cannot tell is if it results from a real (or imagined) sense of safety or simply because weapons work is integrated into the curriculum at the other federations. One odd observation is that when I first used a katana I often tore my thumbnail against the inside of the suba in chiburi so perhaps it is a good idea to at least practice sometimes with a bokken equivalent to prepare oneself for the transition?

[OwlMatt]

This can go on forever... :hypno: :crazy:

Only if people insist on continuing to argue with Graham. I stopped weeks ago, because he made abundantly clear on the first page of this thread that any argument, no matter how substantive, that contradicted his own unpopular viewpoint would be dismissed with a wave of his hand.

[kewms]

We learned a new sword kata last night. And in one variation, one partner responds to an attempted block by sliding along his attacker's sword until they lock tsubas, then using the resulting closeness to grab the attacker's outside (right) hand. I don't claim to have vast sword experience, but moves like this are not unusual in the sword work that I've seen.

But I'm probably shouting down a well, here, since it's already clear that the anti-tsuba forces don't consider the behavior of actual swords relevant to their practice.

Katherine

[kewms]

(The same was true at the dojo of Gleeson Sensei). I see merit in both practices but the sword work was more spirited in the Saotome system. Perhaps the wooden suba offers a false sense of security but consistently the katas at these other schools approach the speed and force that is only equaled in the encounters between instructors in my own school. What I cannot tell is if it results from a real (or imagined) sense of safety or simply because weapons work is integrated into the curriculum at the other federations.

My experience is that Gleason Sensei's dojo sets an unusually high standard for weapons work. That may or may not have anything to do with their use of tsubas, except that I would be extremely reluctant to face Gleason Sensei without one.

Katherine

[Cliff Judge]

My experience is that Gleason Sensei's dojo sets an unusually high standard for weapons work. That may or may not have anything to do with their use of tsubas, except that I would be extremely reluctant to face Gleason Sensei without one.

Katherine

The example you provided in the post above this one is an example of where the tsuba is clearly required by the technique.

But I am curious why you say you would be reluctant to train with Gleason Sensei without a tsuba. Do you think he would hurt your hands accidentally or intentionally? Or would you be worried that you would accidentally hurt your own hands? Or are you simply pointing out that Gleason Sensei does a lot of techniques that require a tsuba?

I apologize if my line of questioning seems overly aggressive. Sincerely trying to figure something out.

[kewms]

But I am curious why you say you would be reluctant to train with Gleason Sensei without a tsuba. Do you think he would hurt your hands accidentally or intentionally? Or would you be worried that you would accidentally hurt your own hands? Or are you simply pointing out that Gleason Sensei does a lot of techniques that require a tsuba?

He does use a number of techniques that require a tsuba.

But mostly it's because he tends to push students right to the edge of what they can deal with -- in empty hand practice as well -- and a tsuba gives that extra bit of protection against one's own mistakes.

Katherine

[Demetrio Cereijo]

But I'm probably shouting down a well, here, since it's already clear that the anti-tsuba forces don't consider the behavior of actual swords relevant to their practice.
So what is your opinion about, for instance, classical schools like TSKSR?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtYLLy3Tp50

or Kuroda sensei work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVuGDcggm44

I don't see tsuba in their bokken.

[Keith Larman]

I swear, sometimes I think some post here just to create argument and annoy others.

The original discussion thread that got this going began with the characterization of those using tsuba as somehow being careless or as a sign of poor training methods. Others have tried to point out that many groups do use tsuba as part of their overall pedagogy and there is precious little that should be characterized there as sloppy or lazy. Of course there are also those who do not use them extensively -- their overall approach does not require it given the larger picture of their training. And then there are those famous people we see out there who do a whole variety of things, but we must keep in mind that with those folk, representatives of their styles of which we are *not* members, well, we are only seeing what they decide to show.

The point here is that some use them extensively. And the tsuba becomes an integral part of the training. To characterize *all* training of that sort as lazy or sloppy is simplistic, naive, uninformed and arrogant. That does not mean that training without is somehow wrong, however.

Do whatever the hell it is your sensei says. And maybe we should all think twice about commenting on what others do absent experience in the bigger picture of their training.

[kewms]

So what is your opinion about, for instance, classical schools like TSKSR?

Don't know enough about either school to comment intelligently, except that I don't think a student of either style has commented in this thread to this point, so we have no way of knowing how those clips fit into their overall practice.

Katherine

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Don't know enough about either school to comment intelligently, except that I don't think a student of either style has commented in this thread to this point, so we have no way of knowing how those clips fit into their overall practice.

Katherine
In which school of swordmanship have you enough knowledge, so I get the context of your previous statement " it's already clear that the anti-tsuba forces don't consider the behavior of actual swords relevant to their practice" ?

[kewms]

In which school of swordmanship have you enough knowledge, so I get the context of your previous statement " it's already clear that the anti-tsuba forces don't consider the behavior of actual swords relevant to their practice" ?

That observation is based on the abundance of comments like this one in the thread itself:

Real swords however is a side issue for it is obvious that if I say no tsuba then I am talking bokken for you can't get a real sword without one. (unless you want to be pedantic then you could find that there are 'some' real katana without them.)

To my knowledge, none of Kuroda Sensei's students is here saying things like:
Reliance or using a tsuba as standard procedure leads to lazyness and complcency.

As for TSKSR, they clearly use tsuba with metal blades:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGtjAW2EDHA&feature=related
and therefore can't be seen as "anti-tsuba" generally. The people I've trained with who have studied TSKSR used tsuba when I trained with them.

My own training is primarily Saotome Sensei's aikiken, with a sprinkling of kenjutsu and iaijutsu. (While my main teachers have classical sword experience, they are not licensed to teach classical sword and so I'm not going to cause problems for them by naming specific styles.)

Katherine

[Cliff Judge]

In which school of swordmanship have you enough knowledge, so I get the context of your previous statement " it's already clear that the anti-tsuba forces don't consider the behavior of actual swords relevant to their practice" ?

She provided an anecdote that supports something we have already established in this thread, which is that sometimes, you want to work a tsuba technique. It is good to have a tsuba for that.

There is no reason for any of us to believe that in Katori Shinto ryu or Komagawa Kaishin ryu they have any tsuba techniques.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Ah, I got it.

It's about Graham trolling you. Yes, he is good at that.