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Mike Hamer
07-18-2006, 11:00 AM
To a freezing cold bathtub. Yep, I guess you could say Im insane. Actually, I've been reading a book by Ki Soceities founder Koichi Tohei.

"Every morning I would leap up as soon as I awakened, run to the bathroom, and dash two or three buckets of cold water over my head and body"

"The cold water baths were the first opportunity. My ki became positive, and plus called forth more plus."

Well, it sucked, but hey, IT'S GOOD FOR ME. Ive just been sitting on here since then though, hehehehe.

Guilty Spark
07-18-2006, 12:26 PM
To work on my aikido I wait until my wife is in the shower and then flush the toilet.
My techniques aren't that effective, luckily for me I can run faster scared than she can angry. Still good training :)

All kidding aside what's the idea behind the freezing cold water?

Trish Greene
07-18-2006, 12:50 PM
"Every morning I would leap up as soon as I awakened, run to the bathroom, and dash two or three buckets of cold water over my head and body"

"The cold water baths were the first opportunity. My ki became positive, and plus called forth more plus."

"They are more like 'guidelines' then codes..."

I read the book too but I guess I am too western to want to take a cold bath in the morning... I heard it is a good way to finish off a hot shower though?

Adam Alexander
07-18-2006, 01:57 PM
To a freezing cold bathtub. Yep, I guess you could say Im insane. Actually, I've been reading a book by Ki Soceities founder Koichi Tohei.

"Every morning I would leap up as soon as I awakened, run to the bathroom, and dash two or three buckets of cold water over my head and body"

"The cold water baths were the first opportunity. My ki became positive, and plus called forth more plus."

Well, it sucked, but hey, IT'S GOOD FOR ME. Ive just been sitting on here since then though, hehehehe.

I think it's a great idea! I'm no where near as serious as I was a couple years ago (I think I would of tried it to). But it sounds exactly like when you go into the dojo half-asleep. You're not really into class. Then someone totally slams you and you snap to attention.

It be great to start the day like that!...In fact, you've got me a little motivated. I'll splash some cold water on my face tomorrow morning to start:)

You're not actually washing in the cold water, are you? If so, you're better than me.

Aristeia
07-18-2006, 05:17 PM
check this discussion out
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/browse_frm/thread/e8a20c1584e31f3e/c2dc81304f9463ac?q=dousing&lnk=gst&rnum=1#c2dc81304f9463ac

aikidoc
07-18-2006, 06:19 PM
Although this concept is used by the Finnish after a sauna (pronounced sow-nah from what I'm told), I would not recommend it if you have heart problems or circulatory problems. You might end up permanently cold. Growing up in Michigan we had a heat wave right after the ice melted off the lake. Like a dummy I thought it would be fun to just jump off the end of the pier. The shock of the cold literally took my breath away and I could hardly move-lucky the water wasn't too deep. I now prefer a more gradual approach. :).

statisticool
07-18-2006, 06:58 PM
My bathroom water pipes are so *bleep* that they alternate between extremely hot and extremely cold anyway. :)

Mike Hamer
07-23-2006, 11:34 PM
To work on my aikido I wait until my wife is in the shower and then flush the toilet.
My techniques aren't that effective, luckily for me I can run faster scared than she can angry. Still good training :)

All kidding aside what's the idea behind the freezing cold water?


The point is the point......the one point that is, in the lower abdomen. The uncomfortability right from rising in the morning kind of forces you to locate your center immediatly.

Mike Hamer
07-23-2006, 11:35 PM
I think it's a great idea! I'm no where near as serious as I was a couple years ago (I think I would of tried it to). But it sounds exactly like when you go into the dojo half-asleep. You're not really into class. Then someone totally slams you and you snap to attention.

It be great to start the day like that!...In fact, you've got me a little motivated. I'll splash some cold water on my face tomorrow morning to start:)

You're not actually washing in the cold water, are you? If so, you're better than me.


No, I just sit in the tub with the freezing water for a minute or so, splashing it on my body, then I take my normal shower

markwalsh
07-24-2006, 12:02 AM
I used to use really cold showers to practice my centering and breathing. Wakes you up pretty good at the very least.

Also lived with no hot water for three months in Ethiopia, but there the water was never that cold.

Steve Mullen
07-24-2006, 10:26 AM
I find that after a good work out or training session that standing in a luke warm shower, and making it progressively colder is a good way to cool down. If you start from freezing straight away then your body shuts down, and as soon as the water stops it tries desperately to warm you up, so you end up where you started, only much much wetter.

The finishing with a really cold blast of water thing is good for early morning showers, they kind you use just to wake yourself up. Its fun................ for about 5 seconds

Mike Hamer
07-24-2006, 06:23 PM
Ive had a hard time making myself do it latley, I was able to this morning though. :ki:

Adam Alexander
08-04-2006, 05:32 PM
No, I just sit in the tub with the freezing water for a minute or so, splashing it on my body, then I take my normal shower

You're still better than me. I could only splash cold water on my face...and that was only once;)...but I felt great afterward.

Mike Hamer
08-05-2006, 02:26 AM
Its all a test of willpower man....

Tim Gerrard
08-07-2006, 09:45 AM
....To the Pub!!

God I wish they showed Australian rugby matches here more often!!

Ron Tisdale
08-07-2006, 10:58 AM
I actually have noticed an improvement in body connection on the days that I do the cold water dousing after a hot shower. Especially on saturdays when I go from the shower to the dojo. But I don't understand at all why this should be.

Does anyone from the Ki group (Dan, Mike, Gernot, Rob) have any ideas ***how*** or why this seems to help?

Best,
Ron

Mike Hamer
08-07-2006, 02:58 PM
Im not exactly from the Ki "group" but I still follow the principles. I think it's because in order to do something like that without expiriencing extreme discomfort, you must use your mind to overcome your bodys natural responses to such a situation. In doing so, you set an example for the rest of the day that shows the mind controls the body, and it becomes easier to make this a reality in daily life when from the begining you show yourself that this is true.

Ron Tisdale
08-07-2006, 03:19 PM
That is quite possibly a large part of it...they say the mind leads the qi...

Anyone else?

Thanks,
Ron

Mike Hamer
08-08-2006, 02:27 AM
I plan on training with the Ki Soceity someday in my life......Id definitley have to relocate though..

Mark Freeman
08-08-2006, 05:56 AM
I actually have noticed an improvement in body connection on the days that I do the cold water dousing after a hot shower. Especially on saturdays when I go from the shower to the dojo. But I don't understand at all why this should be.

Does anyone from the Ki group (Dan, Mike, Gernot, Rob) have any ideas ***how*** or why this seems to help?

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,

I'm not being facetious, but why do you need to know? Is it not enough to just 'do' and realise the benefits?

If I gave you a plausible explanation involving changes at the micro cellular or possibly even atomic level, would that make the benefit greater. Also I could be completely wrong ;)

You don't have to understand how a car works to thoroughly enjoy driving it, or to drive it well.

Maybe the cold water cools down your brain which is over heating from trying to understand everything ;)

The mind leads the body, the body can affect the mind.

Cheers

Mark

Ron Tisdale
08-08-2006, 07:50 AM
Hi Mark,

I'd like to further my understanding of these things because the better I understand it, the better I can make use of it. Why should our practice be brain dead? I'm trying to think of ONE of my instructors who has told me "you don't need to think about this". Let's see...

Utada Sensei "Know your body"
Kondo Sensei "steal my waza if you can"
The seniors in the Yoshinkan...none of them told me to throw out my brain.

In fact, they have encouraged me to do the best I can to figure things out. Now, I may not HAVE to know about these details to be able to do some minimal level of waza based around them...but I certainly will benefit from a greater understanding.

Mind, body and spirit TOGETHER. Why in the world should I let one part atrophy??

Best,
Ron

Mark Freeman
08-08-2006, 08:31 AM
Hi Ron,

I'm not advocating brain dead training, far from it. But I have heard my teacher more than once say "you are thinking too much, just do it, don't think!"

In my experience the questioning mind can be both useful and it's own worst enemy. If you ask yourself good questions, fine, if you formulate bad questions then you get correspondingly bad answers. Sometimes trying to see the structure of the make up of the paint prevents you from seeing the beautiful picture.

The use of 'mind' in aikido is not the same as thinking, a fast attack does not allow enough time to think, as I'm sure you are aware, action has to be instinctive, which improves through constant training.

Knowing on an intellectual level is not the same as truely 'knowing'. There are plenty of people who read and digest the aikido philosophy of non resistance, but not so many who can actually do it.

I don't think we are at odds Ron, I too always want to know the reason why something works, but my primary focus is on making something work for my benefit, before trying to understand it.

When we get mind, body and spirit to work together ....hooray!!! :D

cheers

Mark

Mike Hamer
08-08-2006, 10:02 AM
Interesting points you have there Ron, and Mark.

Ron Tisdale
08-08-2006, 10:09 AM
I also don't think we are that far apart. When on the mat, do. No problems there. But I think what we have seen is so many robots out there not thinking about what they do on the mat, when they are off the mat.

Let's take the current topic of ki/kokyu skills as an example, and juxtapose that with say, fast vs slow practice. I've always heard that if you can't close your openings and maintain correct posture and technique when moving slowly...you can't really do it fast either. The added speed may make something *look* like it works, but add in resistance and suddenly it falls apart, because the basics aren't there under the speed.

If you are working with basically cooperative partners, how do you know you ki/jin/kokyu skills are doing what you think? How about if your partners don't understand this area any better than you? Do you rely solely on your teacher? Or do you take the time to analyze what it is you do, apply your reasoning to it, and structure your focus while training against whatever understanding you have before you step on the mat?

The "don't think so much" often does apply while in the physical act of training *at some stages*...but that does not meant to turn off your brain at all times, nor does it mean that you refuse to reason out the mechanics and how and why they work. That would be a cop out. I'm not doing that, thanks.

Best,
Ron

Mark Freeman
08-08-2006, 11:36 AM
I also don't think we are that far apart. When on the mat, do. No problems there. But I think what we have seen is so many robots out there not thinking about what they do on the mat, when they are off the mat.
This may be true, however, I am constantly reminding my guys to apply the priciples of aikido in daily life, whether they (or I for that matter) do is another thing.
Let's take the current topic of ki/kokyu skills as an example, and juxtapose that with say, fast vs slow practice. I've always heard that if you can't close your openings and maintain correct posture and technique when moving slowly...you can't really do it fast either. The added speed may make something *look* like it works, but add in resistance and suddenly it falls apart, because the basics aren't there under the speed.

I agree with you, I think slow practice is essential to developing the correct fast practice, but fast or slow, ki/kokyo skills are either there or not there.
If you are working with basically cooperative partners, how do you know you ki/jin/kokyu skills are doing what you think?
By the results I see / feel with the practice partner. I am reliant on my partner to attack me well enough and to stay connected throught the movement, to test me. I have to have a somewhat co-operative partner who can follow, to be able to find the 'holes' or lack of 'ki' in my technique.
How about if your partners don't understand this area any better than you? Do you rely solely on your teacher? Or do you take the time to analyze what it is you do, apply your reasoning to it, and structure your focus while training against whatever understanding you have before you step on the mat?
No, don't rely solely on the teacher, he/she is there to demonstrate the principles, we have to find out through endless trial and error, how to make the principles work for us. We all practice with people who are either further along the path than us ( not directly related to length of time/rank), and those that we are ahead of. We have to learn from all of them.
My biggest lessons have come from practicing with people that frustrate the hell out of me. I initially feel that they are at fault, then I realise that it is me that is the problem.

The "don't think so much" often does apply while in the physical act of training *at some stages*...but that does not meant to turn off your brain at all times, nor does it mean that you refuse to reason out the mechanics and how and why they work. That would be a cop out. I'm not doing that, thanks

Turning off your brain at all times is not a good idea, and I hope that isn't what you thought I intended when I answered your earlier post. My point is this, you asked for some input from someone in the Ki group, well, I have enough experience to do and teach numerous different ki developement exercises. One of the most obvious things to me is the lack of thinking going on when being 'tested' correctly, usually the mind is in a 'direction' usually extended forward.
It is my job as a teacher to try and understand the underlying reasons why something works, and to convey to the student what they need to know to understand the test. But as I've said knowing and doing are two different things. Students that try and over analyse these simple tests, tend to take longer to understand them than those that just 'do'.

Just on a slightly different note, I was on a week long seminar with my teacher recently, and we were looking at a nikkyo exercise, he showed me something that completely changed my perception of both the principle and my understanding of it, 'awesome' , I was walking around with a grin on my face for ages afterwards. All my thinking and trying up to that point was not so much in vain, but it didn't provide the quantum leap which took me up to the next level ( that came from a short sharp rap on the knuckles for holding too hard {I honestly thought I was holding without any tension}, as I 'let go' it all fell into place :D )

Thanks for getting me to think Ron, maybe I don't spend enough time doing it ;)

cheers

Mark

Ron Tisdale
08-08-2006, 01:19 PM
Ok, so now that the issue of whether to think or not is out of the way, any more explanations on the use of cold water misogi rituals and how they contribute to ki/jin/kokyu skills?

Best,
Ron

MM
08-08-2006, 02:35 PM
Ok, so now that the issue of whether to think or not is out of the way, any more explanations on the use of cold water misogi rituals and how they contribute to ki/jin/kokyu skills?

Best,
Ron

Heat causes expansion, cold contracts.

Heat in electronics reduces resistance, cold increases it.

Maybe the cold is bringing all your energy inside and into a compact, focused place. Then, when you get warmed up from training, that internal energy is released with a lack of resistance.

Hence, you focus your ki with the cold and at practice it translates to jin without resistance and brings an effect of kokyu skills.

Or I'm just blathering away because I have no clue. ;) (Yes, folks, it's this answer)

Seriously, Ron. I don't have a clue. I haven't done any cold water misogi. If you find an answer, though, I am curious.

Mark

tedehara
08-14-2006, 02:25 PM
To a freezing cold bathtub. Yep, I guess you could say Im insane. Actually, I've been reading a book by Ki Soceities founder Koichi Tohei.

"Every morning I would leap up as soon as I awakened, run to the bathroom, and dash two or three buckets of cold water over my head and body"

"The cold water baths were the first opportunity. My ki became positive, and plus called forth more plus."

Well, it sucked, but hey, IT'S GOOD FOR ME. Ive just been sitting on here since then though, hehehehe.Koichi Tohei suffered from pleurisy. Upon his recovery, most formal methods of self-improvement were too strenuous for him. Dousing himself with several buckets of water was the first practice he did after recovery.

Dousing yourself with buckets of cold water is a misogi (spiritual cleansing) technique. Since a bucket is traditionally an English gallon, you can use any container that is handy. I find it refreshing after a quick shower.

Putting yourself in a cold bath tub is more like river misogi. There the participants immerse themselves up to their chest in a cold river. This is traditionally done around New Year's Day.

In the Ki Society if people are doing river misogi for the first time, they are usually shown how to keep one point before going in the water . By relaxing they are able to stop shivering and chattering teeth. It makes the experience an exercise in mind/body coordination, rather than masochism.

How does this relate to ki development? Challenging the body by using one's mind is a standard way to develop ki, or one's focus and awareness.

Mike Hamer
08-14-2006, 11:50 PM
Koichi Tohei suffered from pleurisy. Upon his recovery, most formal methods of self-improvement were too strenuous for him. Dousing himself with several buckets of water was the first practice he did after recovery.

Dousing yourself with buckets of cold water is a misogi (spiritual cleansing) technique. Since a bucket is traditionally an English gallon, you can use any container that is handy. I find it refreshing after a quick shower.

Putting yourself in a cold bath tub is more like river misogi. There the participants immerse themselves up to their chest in a cold river. This is traditionally done around New Year's Day.

In the Ki Society if people are doing river misogi for the first time, they are usually shown how to keep one point before going in the water . By relaxing they are able to stop shivering and chattering teeth. It makes the experience an exercise in mind/body coordination, rather than masochism.

How does this relate to ki development? Challenging the body by using one's mind is a standard way to develop ki, or one's focus and awareness.


Ted, I have to thank you for the link in yor sig, as I someday plan on being a student of the Ki Soceity.

Im on chapter 3 of the manual for training with Ki, and a so called cheat sheet of secrets for Aikdo training. Im guessing those are just little tips that can have a major impact on the effectivness of a technique, or some kind of training.

cheerio

Keith Gotschall
08-15-2006, 03:57 AM
Hi yall, I have been doing river misogi since I was in high school, some 26 years ago. I didn't know it then of course, I just thought I was jumping in a river! Why I started doing it, who knows? but it has become a New Years day ritual that I have observed ever since. Always seemed like a good way to start the year, wash away the bad and begin afresh. Over the years I have noticed several things about the extreme cold. (a quick aside, many times the air temp has been practically balmy, but I have jumped into a "borrowed" hole that had been chainsawed clear of about 8 inches of ice.) The obvious being, it's stinking cold! and any hangover you might have is instantly cut through. but more profoundly, you can relax into the cold and stop the shivering. RELAX, and it is not so bad. As you get out of the water, that is when the comedy takes over as you try to get back into your clothes while wet and numb. However, very soon after getting out, an amazing deep warmth and sense of well being seems to pervade, coming from your core. Spooky cause or simple survival reaction from the body, I don't know. It is definitely there. I just started Aikido in Feb. and just as with most of you out there, it has taken over a large part of my life. So next Jan. 1, there will no doubt be a new facet to the ritual. Less hooting and splashing, more one point!

Mike Hamer
08-16-2006, 07:15 PM
yes yes, I plan on making next years start my first time with river misogi.

Keith Gotschall
08-17-2006, 03:22 AM
Good for you Mike, are you close to one of the big lakes? many places will have a "polar bear" club. I've never been one for those kind of things, but others find the camaraderie helpful, not to mention the portable hot tub that they sometimes arrange for the apre' plunge! I have preferred to find an isolated creek pool that stays clear of ice. Then head out for breakfast and bloody marys!
Best of luck.

Mike Hamer
08-17-2006, 10:27 PM
Well....I live in the middle of Michigan, so Im definitly near some lakes....I'll have to find someone to go with me...maybe some people from Aikido?

aikidoc
08-18-2006, 12:08 AM
I was just back in southwestern Michigan-I do miss those lakes. In West TX you have to drive at least two hours to see water.

Mike Hamer
08-18-2006, 03:50 AM
Michigan has it's lakes....thats about it though im afraid..

tedehara
08-19-2006, 08:33 AM
Ted, I have to thank you for the link in yor sig, as I someday plan on being a student of the Ki Soceity.

Im on chapter 3 of the manual for training with Ki, and a so called cheat sheet of secrets for Aikdo training. Im guessing those are just little tips that can have a major impact on the effectivness of a technique, or some kind of training.

cheerioIf you're interested in "The Secrets of Aikido", why not look at the New Jersey Ki Society Training Manual of the same title? You can find it by clicking here! (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/1804/soa1/soa1.html) Then click on the hyperlinked index towards the bottom of the page.

Mike Hamer
08-21-2006, 08:04 PM
If you're interested in "The Secrets of Aikido", why not look at the New Jersey Ki Society Training Manual of the same title? You can find it by clicking here! (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/1804/soa1/soa1.html) Then click on the hyperlinked index towards the bottom of the page.


Thanks, im on chapter 4. I wish that there was a dojo near my area.