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Stuart
08-06-2001, 10:53 PM
I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.

Its very sloopy, and weak. I dont get it? Is this really a martial art or a joke? One punch or kick, and you guys are gone. Sloppy women and men doing it. What a joke.

Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.

Greg Jennings
08-06-2001, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by Stuart
I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.

Its very sloopy, and weak. I dont get it? Is this really a martial art or a joke? One punch or kick, and you guys are gone. Sloppy women and men doing it. What a joke.

Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.

As in my other reply to Stuart:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt".

Cheers!

Jorge Garcia
08-06-2001, 11:45 PM
I don't know what dojo you were at but please understand that in every art, there is an occasional school that in fact, is not very good. I would invite you to come to the ShinKiKan Dojo in Houston Texas. Maybe it will look different to you. You may even want to get on the mat. We train all the time with karate black belts and kickboxers and they seem to have good regard for us. You may find that all schools are not the same!

dainippon99
08-06-2001, 11:50 PM
chill out everyone, hes just trying to be an asshole.

ze'ev erlich
08-07-2001, 02:05 AM
If you happen to be in Israel or Japan, please come to my dojo and try to practice with one of my beginners for one hour...
Then we will see what you think of Aikido.

giriasis
08-07-2001, 02:10 AM
I agree with Bobby and Greg. This person is not worth our time responding to. It's called trolling and intentionally meant to provoke a fight. Plus we have much better threads on this site that discuss this matter ad nauseum.

Let it go.

Anne Marie

aikilouis
08-07-2001, 03:30 AM
I've just noticed one could put someone on your buddy list ! Who wanna try with Stuart ?

Louis R Joseph

JJF
08-07-2001, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by dainippon99
chill out everyone, hes just trying to be an asshole. True! But one must admire the great job he's doing.... .;)

I'm not sure Stuart went to a bad dojo - maybe he did maybe he didn't. I'm more inclined to believe that he's not able to understand what it is all about. Actually very few people are before getting their feet wet themselves. So:

Yes Stuart! - you don't get it!
yes! it is a martial art!
no! it's neither fake nor weak when done correctly

Now go join your precious kickboxing or karate dojo for some REAL fighting.... (snicker).... or show some balls and give Aikido a fair chance before you insult us again.

Tim Griffiths
08-07-2001, 04:57 AM
I joined in a karate class and I must say that
karate doesnt work one bit. its very stiff
and fake.

Its very sloppy, and weak. I dont get it? Is
this really a martial art or a joke? One tenkan
or iriminage, and you guys are gone. Sloppy
women and big ugly men doing it. What a joke.

Take aikido for some real effective harmonising.


:rolleyes:

Tighe Estes
08-07-2001, 04:18 PM
I would say that you are basing your view of Aikido on a select group of practitioners without the advantage of understanding. What type of people are you observing in practice, are they avid martial artist types...dojo dogs, there whenever the door is open? Or are they simply looking at Aikido in terms of recreation or exercise. Are thier instructors also sloppy and "weak" appearing? If so that could be the root of the problem, as bad instructions creates bad students.

I have often seen college kids walking to Jeet Kune Do classes on campus...they couldn't begin to stand up to a real attack (I seriously doubt that many 'practitioners', myself included, could), but does that mean that Jeet Kune Do is ineffective and weak? Not at all, just that the representatives of the system that I have observed are.

There is really no true standard of 'measuring' a martial art of philosophy, as it transcends the abilities of it's students. I honestly believe that Aikido is the perfect martial art, which makes it that much harder on it's students as they try to learn it. It demands a 'perfect' practitioner to do it justice.

I agree the the low intensity nature of many Aikido dojos invites atypical students (I was grossly overweight for an eleven year old when I started), but measuring the worthiness of any art by its followers is folly. In that case Christianity would be viewed as the sum of the worst hypocrites, the Hippocratic Oath seen as the pledge of med school washouts, and Universities rated by the lowest student GPA's.

I'm sure that there are a lot of inneffective karateka and kickboxers, (especially now that 'cardio' kickboxing is in vogue) but a generalization of Aikido based on a few observations is worthless and shortsighted.

Sincerely,
Tighe Estes

Jim23
08-07-2001, 05:15 PM
Feels like I've been here before. *cough* :) *choke*

I fully understand how this guy feels, because I felt that way too. In fact, every once in a while, I still feel a little that way ... hmm. However, I shall persevere.

I think a major part of the problem (for me anyway) was seeing people wearing brown belts that would never (should never) be awarded that belt in another martial art - it reminded me a little of children's karate classes.

The difference now though, is that I do "get it" as so many people suggested I didn't earlier.

Stuart, it all boils down to the students in the dojo, which really boils down to the instructor.

Jim23

Greg Jennings
08-07-2001, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Jim23
In fact, every once in a while, I still feel a little that way ... hmm. However, I shall persevere.


Well, Jim ...heh, heh, heh... the next time you get to feeling that way, come play with us here rather than just perservering. We'll cure you right away or at least provide some aches and pains to distract you. :) :) :)

At least no one has thrown up this week although we had a close call last night.

Regards,

Mike Collins
08-07-2001, 05:55 PM
By all means, all means do try Shin Ki Kan in Houston. Do get on the mat. Better yet wait about a month and do it in the first weekend in Sepetmber.

I guarantee you a thrill. Especially if ya bring an attitude.

Go pick on the little old guy that weekend.

Jim23
08-07-2001, 05:59 PM
Greg,

Oh, I've had the aches, pains and bruises, believe me - that's not what I meant though.

I've met some very good aikidoka and also some pathetic ones as well. We all have. Too many of the latter is the problem!

With regrads to inflicting unecessary pain or even causing damage (which I'm sure you didn't mean ;)), I've seen that in karate too. Didn't impress me there either. :):)

Jim23

Suru
08-07-2001, 09:02 PM
In the immortal lyrics of Enigma,

Don't be afraid to be weak
Don't be too proud to be strong

Drew

Nick
08-07-2001, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Stuart
I dont get it? .

Obviously not.

Stuart
08-07-2001, 10:07 PM
ok... You guy's can attack me all you want but, you know i'm right. Deep down inside that is you know.

In karate you can punch and kick although I think kick boxing is even better because you really know how to punch ( gloves) and kick a lot (you hear.. KICKboxing). In aikido you just pretend to throw and hold the other guy down on the floor (or women).

You know! A hard kick will stop you in your spin's. spin.....kick... fall.

You SAY you are better than karate or kick boxing but where's your proof, all you do is pretend with each other? I've never even seen an aikido fighter in a real match. Take off your shirt and try to fight. It will never happen right? Just a lot of talking and talking.:(

guest1234
08-07-2001, 10:22 PM
Hi Stuart,
I'm sorry you did not enjoy your visit to an Aikido dojo, or find anything of value to you there. As you can tell, many of us do really have a good time, and a lot of us have found more than we thought possible when we first started.
Do you mind me asking, why you chose a somewhat billigerent approach to communicating with us? Is there something we can explain or do for you?

Stuart
08-07-2001, 10:37 PM
I don't really want to argue with a woman with this question.

Do you beleive in KI? I've been reading about Ki here a lot, flow your energy hard into your throws. yea right.

Try it in your kicks too and you will be invincable. SHoooooiiiiiaaaiiii!! That kick took your head off. Ki...shmi.... maybe a little more time on the kick-bag please guys to get really effective (and women). An aikido guy kicking a kick bag.....right....really?? No way in my life time.:eek:

Greg Jennings
08-07-2001, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by Stuart
ok... You guy's can attack me all you want but, you know i'm right. Deep down inside that is you know. <SNIP>


Nope. Never claimed to be better. Trained in karate and full-contact kickboxing and enjoyed them; thought they were great. Aikido is just my thing right now; think it's great too. Feel the same way about judo, jodo, iaido and several others.

But, I digress:

You say you can down aikidoka with one punch _or_ one kick. I say your mouth has made a wager that your a** can't cover.

So, in poker terms, I call. Come try me. You can find my dojo through the website in my signature.

I'll even let you have one punch _and_ one kick. You drop me, I'll give you $100; you fail for whatever reason, you give me $100.

Put up or shut up. And I didn't even take my shirt off.

But, you know what, you'll never show.

Another quote for you:

"Better to have lightening in the hand than thunder in the mouth".

Cheers!

guest1234
08-07-2001, 10:52 PM
Stuart,
You sound frustrated and angry and very much alone, not an easy place to be as a young man. You really don't have to take on the world to get attention, or try to prove anything. I think you are trying to make a statement that you like kickboxing. We got that point, on several posts. But still you keep coming back, so it must be that you are looking for something? In what way can we help you?

Greg Jennings
08-07-2001, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Jim23
Greg,

Oh, I've had the aches, pains and bruises, believe me - that's not what I meant though.

Well, then, you're training hard and that's all that matters.


I've met some very good aikidoka and also some pathetic ones as well. We all have. Too many of the latter is the problem!

I've seen out of place people in every art I've ever seen. Everyone's got different goals, everyone's searching.


With regrads to inflicting unecessary pain or even causing damage (which I'm sure you didn't mean ;)), I've seen that in karate too. Didn't impress me there either. :):)

Nah, I'm talking about the aches and pains from good, honest practice. Hard training.

No matter how gentle, 200 nikyo _will_ be painful. 200 koshinage will cause general "becoming one with the mat" aches.

I mention 200 because that's the number I shoot for when I lead class. I want 200 repetitions of technique per two-hour class.

200 repetitions of anything in two hours in this heat and humidity will leave you wringing wet and ready to kill for a liter of water.

50 repetitions of each of the aikiken suburi in an hour, moving slowly and deeply concentrating on form? Your traps, delts and forearms are _screaming_; you're mentally exhaused.

I just think hard training is where it's at.

Regards,

Stuart
08-07-2001, 11:03 PM
Whats this? An aikido guy making me a challenge. hahaha, I will fold you in half like a flag and mop the floor with you too. You don't even know me or who I am. My elbow's will hurt you badly and my knees will bend you in half!!!
You make me laugh. You want me to go to come all the way just to fight with you. hahahahaha!!! Silly worried aikido guy.

guest1234
08-07-2001, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by ca
Stuart,
You sound frustrated and angry and very much alone, not an easy place to be as a young man. You really don't have to take on the world to get attention, or try to prove anything. I think you are trying to make a statement that you like kickboxing. We got that point, on several posts. But still you keep coming back, so it must be that you are looking for something? In what way can we help you?

thomasgroendal
08-07-2001, 11:17 PM
Thanks Stu! I am an aikido black belt, and I agree, aikido has been a total failure for me. At first I thought I would learn this martial art, and get stronger, but no fights ever occured to test that hypothesis, and now I seem to find myself in some wierd attitude where no matter how strong I come on to people who are lonely angry and confused and want violence, they seem to melt away.
But it is a failure. I practice aikido not for the fights that I never have, but for the fights that I do. I fight my pride and my arrogance, but you proved me wrong. I read your mail, and felt a little pissed, a little uppity, and more than a little proud of my "superior" stance in the world. Apparently all these years of practice haven't even prepared me to roll over someone as lonely as you would seem to be. I shouldn't have any problem beating you. You are a digital nidgit, a few words and paragraphs, but here I am with my pulse racing and my ego on the tip of my tongue. I am just like those sloppy guys and gals you had the pleasure of meeting, and probably run into every day when you wake up.
Thanks for the reminder.
I hope you win the fight you're looking for.
I sincerely do.
Tom Groendal

Greg Jennings
08-07-2001, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Stuart
Whats this? An aikido guy making me a challenge. hahaha, I will fold you in half like a flag and mop the floor with you too. You don't even know me or who I am. My elbow's will hurt you badly and my knees will bend you in half!!!
You make me laugh. You want me to go to come all the way just to fight with you. hahahahaha!!! Silly worried aikido guy.

Answers my question. You're just trolling.

Cheers!

PeterR
08-07-2001, 11:22 PM
I notice Stuart (from his original post) did not have the balls to get on the mat. He only watched.

Stuart
08-07-2001, 11:25 PM
I don't understand you. How did I answer you??

Greg Jennings
08-07-2001, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
I notice Stuart (from his original post) did not have the balls to get on the mat. He only watched.

He's just trolling.

Just talk about him like he's not here and sooner or later he won't be.

You know, I heard that guys like Stuart troll to compensate for profound sexual inadequacy.

Cheers!

guest1234
08-07-2001, 11:35 PM
Stuart, is there something you have a question about that we can answer, or something you need? I don't like being rude to a guest, and you are still hanging around for a reason, so it must be something important to you...I understand you do not like the martial art we practice, and that you prefer yours. Perhaps you need a referal to a kickboxing chat group. Do any of you guys know of one?

Nick
08-07-2001, 11:37 PM
rather than taking him up on his challenge you just said "hahahah I am better than you" as normal... okay, aikido sucks, you rule. If I give you a doggie bone (or perhaps some new kickboxing gloves?) will you go away?

Actually, I'll do you one better: I found a new message for you, Stuart.

http://www.salut-valley.com/maft/forum

a bunch of kewl d00d badasses just like you...

After all, do we even deserve to talk to a master as great as you?

I hope one day you can see the art in martial art...

Nick

Nick
08-07-2001, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings

You know, I heard that guys like Stuart troll to compensate for profound sexual inadequacy.

Cheers!

Now now Greg... there are children on this forum ;)... including, I believe, the one it was directed at...

Well put... heh...

Nick

guest1234
08-07-2001, 11:45 PM
Nick, that's perfect! I'm sure he appreciates it. (uh, the website, not the next post...)

Stuart
08-07-2001, 11:48 PM
CA Iit looks like you are not readin what I say.

And greg you make me laugh so hard, now you have a sexual problem with me.? Because you train in aikido and I don't.?? Hahaha No penis!!! haha.

I'll still fight you I could. My kickbag has more sex than aikido!!!

Nick
08-07-2001, 11:50 PM
Ummm.... what do you with your kickbag is your business, stuart...

Nick

Nick
08-07-2001, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by ca
Nick, that's perfect! I'm sure he appreciates it. (uh, the website, not the next post...)

Thanks Colleen... I got a laugh out of it too...

We haven't had a good ole troll-style flame war in a long time... and now I see why :)

Nick

guest1234
08-07-2001, 11:57 PM
I just feel bad that folks are kind of laughing at him and taunting him, when he obviously needs friends. I'm just glad you posted that other chat place for him, so he could find people who might listen to him. Thanks again.

Nick
08-08-2001, 12:01 AM
Colleen--

your 'tenkan' approach was a good idea, but atemi doesn't work on someone so thick headed ;). You might consider this approach irimi... this kid is too "cool" to admit that he's not the greatest, so I'd really prefer to just say "yep, you're soooo right" and send him on his way... I need to get into that mentality more, school starts in a week...

Although I think the best way to resolve this is just to end this thread... though I'll need the support of our members... let's be more "aiki", and just let him go his merry way...

Nick

guest1234
08-08-2001, 12:05 AM
school? :p
:)

Stuart
08-08-2001, 12:05 AM
What are you talking about... aikido is silly there buddy.

You know it too inside my friend. But this is geting boring now, Funny aikido people who pretend to fight!! loosers!!! and you realy know it too, but just pretend a lot about winning real fighters.

Nick
08-08-2001, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by ca
school? :p
:)

Yeah... starts next Monday... how depressing...

Nick
08-08-2001, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Stuart
What are you talking about... aikido is silly there buddy.

You know it too inside my friend. But this is geting boring now, Funny aikido people who pretend to fight!! loosers!!! and you realy know it too, but just pretend a lot about winning real fighters.

Yes... it is getting boring. So boring that perhaps you would... I dunno, leave?

Pretend to fight? Not really... I'm enjoying myself. I don't need to fight anyone... I know you won't understand that...

winning real fighters? Really? Where can I sign up? then I could keep studying my 'ineffective' aikido with no worries...

What was the name of that kid on here awhile back that said he could shoot fireballs with his ki? Jun, can I get an IP track?

I know, I'm the one that called for the cease-fire, but I couldn't help it... too young and stupid, that's it.

Nick

AikidoSteve
08-08-2001, 01:27 AM
I can't believe you guys!! If a person for the first time came to this Aikido web site and viewed this thread, what would they think about Aikido and the Aikidoka? Colleen seems to be the one who could give lessons in self-control. I admit entering is a part of Aikido but so is blending. And I see very little blending in this thread. Thank you Colleen - for your level head.

We all know it's easy to hurt someone, it doesn't take any great skill. While driving down the street in their car, one could drive up onto the sidewalk and do an incredible amount of harm, perhaps even death to any number of unsuspecting pedestrians. However, it seems to me that Aikido allows a person to control a situation without causing harm. And that, is one reason as to why I am attracted to Aikido.

Yet, I have always felt that to be "balanced" one should know the striking arts like Kick-Boxing and Karate, the up close arts like Aikido and Judo, and then for good measure the grappling arts like wrestling or that Brazilian what ever it's called (Gracie?).

I am still having a hard time understanding those Aikidoka who are so willing to show Stuart a thing or two. At a quick glance, it seems these folks are re-acting rather than acting. And I find it conceivable to have lost the fight, even before it has begun.

Yours in Aikihood

dainippon99
08-08-2001, 01:57 AM
i think i can sum up our collective feelings on our friend stewey:

stuart,
you are unlikable.
please leave, you are aggravating people.

Tim Griffiths
08-08-2001, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by AikidoSteve
I can't believe you guys!! If a person for the first time came to this Aikido web site and viewed this thread, what would they think about Aikido and the Aikidoka? Colleen seems to be the one who could give lessons in self-control. I admit entering is a part of Aikido but so is blending. And I see very little blending in this thread. Thank you Colleen - for your level head.


Colleen practiced tenkan, we practiced irimi - if you don't
dance both, you can't dance either. Atemi is as much a
part of aikido as tenkan is.

Do you think O-sensei would have been sweet and nice
to Stuart? Or do you think he would have broken both
his arms?

Stuart has shown that he's unwilling to talk about real
problems or have a reasoned debate, or even put his
butt where his mouth is - Greg blended and offered to
meet him on his terms. Sound like aikido to me.

I, for one, get tired of being nice to people who don't
deserve it, and I don't feel that aikido obliges me to.
This forum isn't really the place to relieve yourself
when your bladder (gall or otherwise) get too full.

Tim - Not posting too seriously

Greg Jennings
08-08-2001, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Tim Griffiths


Colleen practiced tenkan, we practiced irimi - if you don't
dance both, you can't dance either. Atemi is as much a
part of aikido as tenkan is.

Do you think O-sensei would have been sweet and nice
to Stuart? Or do you think he would have broken both
his arms?

Stuart has shown that he's unwilling to talk about real
problems or have a reasoned debate, or even put his
butt where his mouth is - Greg blended and offered to
meet him on his terms. Sound like aikido to me.

I, for one, get tired of being nice to people who don't
deserve it, and I don't feel that aikido obliges me to.
This forum isn't really the place to relieve yourself
when your bladder (gall or otherwise) get too full.

Tim - Not posting too seriously

Thanks Tim.

My idea of dealing with Stuart was to seize the initiative in stopping the fight. That is, to "steal his ki".

This might be abrupt for some but to me it well satisfies the tenet of minimizing harm.

Stuart came to no harm and actually got a free lesson in being sincere.

We had to listen to less of his drivel. The drivel that we did have to listen to, I got redirected to me, personally, rather than our art. I know I can take it. I don't know that of everyone on the forum; especially the new-comers.

I think it worked out well for everyone.

Best Regards,

Vera Cordwood
08-08-2001, 07:21 AM
OK I am a new aikidoka, but of all the aikido on this thread I liked Colleen's the most.
She got past the attack in a nice irimi to examine the uke within.
She offered him the perfect blending opportunities.
One thing I love about aikido is how absurd it looks! Sometimes I just laugh out loud seeing everyone's expression as they practice falls.
Another thing I like is how ridiculous the uke looks/feels during iriminage. LIke a 3 stooges stunt, you propel yourself to a pie-in-the-face whomp to the mat.
The art is wonderful!
I also know, having been thrown so many times I'm getting used to it, what aikido can do. It takes only a few wrist locks to realize that yes, someone with control of your hand, has control of you.


VERA

Ta Kung
08-08-2001, 08:06 AM
Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.

Actually Stuart is not dead wrong... But then again, Aikido is NOT supposed to make us fighters. Right? If it were, we would have sparing matches and such... You see Stuart, telling us that Aikido won't teach us effective fighting is like telling a "old cars collector" that newer cars are faster.

Stuart, I practise both Aikido and ITF taekwon-do, wich is not very unlike Kickboxing in techniques and sparing rules. And let me tell you this, kicks aren't that great! Even the (us) tkd people know this; we practise entering with punches to the face when out opponent throws a kick. If you kick, you're standing on one foot. That's dangerous, 'cause you've got nothing if someone as much as pushes you. Wouldn't you agree?

Kicks are only powerful when they reach their full extension (man do I suck at english! ;) ) so if you simply move towards the opponent when he kicks, the kick doesn't do squat.

I'm glad you find karate and kickboxing fun! Keep at it, they're great martial arts. I beleve that every martial arts has strenghts and weakness' don't you?

One more thing, give Aikido a try! If you then still feel like you do now, just leave it be. But don't judge completly until you tried it. My friend did. (I gave him Niky, and he was so impressed he started practising a few weeks later!)

Regards,
Patrik Eng

PS. It's easier to beat up someone "in self defence", then it is to defeat him without injuring him (or yourself). Wich do you thing is the better option?

Ta Kung
08-08-2001, 08:16 AM
But don't judge completly until you tried it. My friend did. (I gave him Niky, and he was so impressed he started practising a few weeks later!)

I guess I better tell you I meant that I gave him a "Nikkyo"... otherwise people might start to wounder who this girl Niky is, and who I am to just "give her to my friend" for him to be impressed... right? :D

Sincerly,
Patrik Eng *the man who never spellchecks*

PS. I found a few other nice type-o's in my first post. I hope you guys got the point though...:)

Paul van Leeuwe
08-08-2001, 10:15 AM
I am a ju jitsu practitioner, and I do taekwondo just for fun and because only two lessons in ju jitsu are offered a week, and sporting just twice I don't consider enough, as I want to lose some weight. Just some words about my background.

I think aikido is in the least too complex for all but very well-trained aikidokas to use against a well-trained fighter. But that's not necessarily a bad point, some things take time to master. Investing that time is not punishment, but it gave me joy with ju jitsu and never have I felt better then when I sported again (except for a taekwondo lesson where I snapped my ankle and was injured for months). A kickboxer requires less time to be a skilled fighter. They can take some punishment, know where to strike and they can kick devastatingly hard! But... kickboxers don't grapple. Even stuart can't believe that adding grappling to the art will make it a worse art instead of a better one. Look at the cage fights. The most complete fighters usually won.

What if a kickboxer would fight an aikidoka? I think the kickboxer would definately win if he knew how to battle an aikidoka. Kick low, and I wonder how aikidoka's can blend with his technique. If there are other ways within aikido to get around it then I'm just misinformed about aikido. Ju jitsu allows us to 'attack' in a battle, aikido uses only atemi? Ju jitsu teaches us how to take advantage of weak stances of the opponent, but can an aikidoka (using only aikido) kick somebody in the groin if he spreads his legs?

About karate... I do taekwondo and that's quite similar to karate. It's a worthless art for self-defense compared to kickboxing, aikido or ju jitsu (remember I do it to train, not for selfdefense as I have ju jitsu for that). Karate works in theorie but they lack: serious groundfighting, throws (on the ground you can hardly win, especially without groundfighting), chokes and pressure points (or they are underdevelloped). No, I think karate is a thing of the past when it comes to selfdefense. Muay Thai took over it's role completely.

One day I will visit aikido lessons, just to see what it is. I will also visit kung fu. I wonder if ju jitsu is the ultimate art for me, but I think it is. It's not as limited as taekwondo is, but allows almost everything.

I wonder: do you guys think that aikido is the best self-defense art (it will leave you with the fewest injuries if somebody attacks you and you can't avoid it) IF trained well enough in? Nobody feels the lacks of punches and kicks Stuart brawls about? You all think it's not an art which works in theory but not in practice (like taekwondo, karate and in many caes kung fu)?

Just interested. Perhaps I will browse the aikido techniques and try some of them during ju jitsu. Most of the ju jitsu techniques I consider very effective.

AikidoSteve
08-08-2001, 10:31 AM
Do you think O-sensei would have been sweet and nice to Stuart? Or do you think he would have broken both his arms?...
Not posting too seriously

No, I don't believe O-sensei would have let words provoke him to physical violence.

It seems there are better ways to handle Stuart than by the" way of the fist".

In addition, I have to agree with Paul. Aikido is a part of a larger picture. Even O-sensei was familiar with "other" arts as well.

Yours in Aikihood

Patrik Eng
08-08-2001, 10:44 AM
I wonder: do you guys think that aikido is the best self-defense art (it will leave you with the fewest injuries if somebody attacks you and you can't avoid it) IF trained well enough in? Nobody feels the lacks of punches and kicks Stuart brawls about? You all think it's not an art which works in theory but not in practice (like taekwondo, karate and in many caes kung fu)?

I do not think that Aikido is the best self-defense art. Many techniques are very complex, but on the other hand, why not use the simple techniques you know and are good at? Aikido is, however, a superb art when it comes to "shaping the mind" and giving you a good attitude. This is very important, as it is common for people with low selfesteem, or too much of the same for that matter, to get into trouble.

I do not feel the lack of punches and kicks. Aikido isn't about beating up people (selfdefense or not), if used for selfdefense the goal is NOT to injure the attacker. How do you kick/punch someone hard enogh so that he doesn't keep coming, and yet soft enough so that he doesn't sustain injury?

Aikido works both in theory and in practise, it is, however, harder to make it work than others martial arts.

The good thing about Aikido is that if you're good enough to acctually use Aikido for selfdefence, you may defeat an attacker without having to injure him. The bad thing is that it takes time to get good enough.

At my current ability, I'd probably use my Taekwon-do techniques if I ended up in a selfdefense situation. I would however prefer to be better at Aikido, since I don't want people to get hurt (me or them) if a situation ever should happen.

Are there any other martial art that teaches techniques to defeat an attacker without having to injure them? Don't tell me Krav Maga, since they give the ol' groin what it can take, and them some... :)

Regards,
Patrik Eng

guest1234
08-08-2001, 11:12 AM
:o Thanks, Vera, but I'm afraid I 'rule' only in a very little country with one inhabitant :D
glad to hear you're having fun with your ukemi.

Nick
08-08-2001, 11:21 AM
as others have posted... if someone doesn't like aikido, fine. I'll talk to them about it and respect their views. But how much gall does it take to watch one class (maybe), and come onto the internet and tell us how horrible our art is, and why we should take this this this because we are weak and sloppy.... I mean, I like having a good debate concerning aikido, however if I'm going to show respect to someone while speaking with them, I'd prefer a reply that's something more than "I cuud bash u in with one punch and kick cuz aikido is weak and sloopy mwhahahah"...

Nick

Chocolateuke
08-08-2001, 11:34 AM
well, I was going to post at the christianity thred but then I found this last night and then my computer freaked and crashed. serouisly.. listen up kickboxing man. I cant spell so your gonna have to bare with me ( is that the right bare?? or do you spell it differently??) anyhow.. if you live in a big city and you still go to school ask some of your friends if they take aikido and ask what they think of the art. or you could go to co-workers and ask them and maybe you could ask them to demonstrate a lock of some kind or you could go to a dojo and be in class ( you might be able to go as far as asking if you could be thrown by the sensi.) the point is our words dont tell a binky what aikido is like nor what kickboxing is like. i have seen kick boxing in mags and tv and to me it dosnt look appeling but hey that is just me we all are different :).



so,. would that be mumbo jumbo or i am just waging my tail to much!

[Censored]
08-08-2001, 11:58 AM
I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.

Which school did you visit, specifically?

Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.

Have you done either? How long? Where are you located geographically?

Anne
08-08-2001, 12:38 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul van Leeuwe
I am a ju jitsu practitioner, and I do taekwondo just for fun and because only two lessons in ju jitsu are offered a week, and sporting just twice I don't consider enough, as I want to lose some weight. Just some words about my background.

I think one of the problems is that many people don't know the difference between sport and self defence.
sport: lots of rules like no punches in Judo or no attacks towards the legs in TKD

self defence: every attack allowed and practiced

I train at the sports center of my universtity. All kinds of MAs are offered and since training is almost free, many people have a look at other arts. So we have Jiu Jitsu, Karate and TaeKwonDo people around for training sometimes. On the other hand, you can watch or train in their classes, too.
Maybe it's a question of styles but what I see when watching Jiu Jitsu, Karate or TKD is as follows:
Jiu Jitsu (had some training myself): lots of blocking, very undynamic, needs a lot of strenght for all those pulls and forcing a partner through a technique. Techniques start when the partner has already a firm hold on oneself. Aikido starts on a stage when the attacker hasn't got a hold of you already which is a real advantage and one of the reasons why it doesn't require much strenght.

Karate: People practice kata most of the time. Partner practice means blocking a punch etc and a reacting strike etc. Very static,too, because the technique ended there, the attacker didn't try to escape or react.

TKD: Just a little story I overheard in a bus. Two men were sitting in front of me and one complained that he was doing TKD for several years now but was beaten up badly by a boy because that kid just wouldn't stand there and let himself get kicked at but always turned sidewards and punched the man...

One of my friends is a first kyu in karate and he stayed with aikido because he admitted that a karateka wouldn't have a chance.

I was once callenged by a friend who did WT for years. It was just for fun so nobody got hurt but he didn't get past his initial punches or kicks because I always took him down with irimi or tenkan techniques.

What if a kickboxer would fight an aikidoka? I think the kickboxer would definately win if he knew how to battle an aikidoka. Kick low, and I wonder how aikidoka's can blend with his technique. If there are other ways within aikido to get around it then I'm just misinformed about aikido. Ju jitsu allows us to 'attack' in a battle, aikido uses only atemi? Ju jitsu teaches us how to take advantage of weak stances of the opponent, but can an aikidoka (using only aikido) kick somebody in the groin if he spreads his legs?

First, it doesn't matter if the attack is a kick or a punch if you do a correct irimi in this case. By the way, iriminage applied to a leg is very painful and dangerous if you don't know how to fall from this one.
Secondly, if someone spreads his legs, it's usually a position he can't attack from quickly. So as an aikidoka, I don't have to kick.

I wonder: do you guys think that aikido is the best self-defense art (it will leave you with the fewest injuries if somebody attacks you and you can't avoid it) IF trained well enough in? Nobody feels the lacks of punches and kicks Stuart brawls about? You all think it's not an art which works in theory but not in practice (like taekwondo, karate and in many caes kung fu)?

For me, yes, I think aikido will leave me with the fewest injuries, because we learn how to fall savely, too, which other MAs don't teach.
We do train with kicks and punches and with most techniques the kind of attack doesn't matter.

Anne

mj
08-08-2001, 01:08 PM
If you don't all SHUT UP right now... I will CRUSH all of you with my superior JUDO!
Your arts are all obsolete. You've wasted your lives!!!
You are FOOLS because you are not...ME.
I alone know all the answers.
I alone can beat everyone.
You foolish people.
BE QUIET!!!!
I AM TALKING SO BE QUIEEEET!!!
Only MY opinion counts, and if you DARE disagree with me. WELL.....
I will just keep REPEATING MYSELF!
So DO AS I SAY!

nikonl
08-08-2001, 01:33 PM
maybe a lamer's class should suit you....hehe

mj
08-08-2001, 01:54 PM
I'm not a lamer... I'm a lammer ;)
http://www.claymorenation.com/
Mark aka Dexter(TCN)
(My other hobby)
(obsession)

Manuel Cortez
08-08-2001, 03:29 PM
A COMPARISON OF TWO TRADITIONAL, YET SEEMINGLY DIFFERENT, JAPANESE STYLES

http://www.shotokai.cl/ensayos/62_eg_.html

NYFE Man
08-08-2001, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Paul van Leeuwe
I am a ju jitsu practitioner, and I do taekwondo just for fun and because only two lessons in ju jitsu are offered a week, and sporting just twice I don't consider enough, as I want to lose some weight. Just some words about my background.

I think aikido is in the least too complex for all but very well-trained aikidokas to use against a well-trained fighter.

(snip, snip, snip)
One day I will visit aikido lessons, just to see what it is. I will also visit kung fu. I wonder if ju jitsu is the ultimate art for me, but I think it is. It's not as limited as taekwondo is, but allows almost everything.

(more snipping)

OK, I was respecting some of the points made in the above post right up until that last little paragraph. Why is it that the most vocal detractors of Aikido on this forum never seem to actually DO Aikido (not counting you, Jim23 ;))?

Personally, I have been doing Aikido for about 7 months now. I would probably (read: absolutely) get my butt kicked in a "real fight". I am probably one of those "sloppy" people. But I'm getting better.

It's MY path. If you don't like it, find your own. But please, don't walk next to me and complain!

mj
08-08-2001, 06:25 PM
You will all Bow To ME!
(Sorry, but I have to break the deja vu I get reading these posts...again and again and again...)
Didn't O-Sensei insist that you had to have at least a Dan (or more) in another art before he accepted you as a trainee. (Disciple)
Why was that?
Or is that a new (sensible) thread?
And another thing... why do these forums keep changing my spacing and paragraph structure, now that IS annoying. Whereas all this bickering is just irritating. ;)
Do you really care if people find fault with what you do?
If you do, it's going to be a long, sad life.
If you feel that you must defend yourself against even the most peurile verbal attacks...
Now I'm talking too much, who did I get that from?

guest1234
08-08-2001, 07:04 PM
me. me me me me me. definately me. but please remember, I rule :p
...to be you there needs to me more macho, to be Jim there needs to be more macho and a reference to another art that is more macho. just plain wordy is me.

mj
08-08-2001, 07:07 PM
Wow.
I NEVER thought you would spot that ca!
:D
I confess and apologise. Friends?

guest1234
08-08-2001, 07:16 PM
How could I bear a grudge against someone who expands my vocabulary? :D

mj
08-08-2001, 07:26 PM
Thanks.
Because it was you, and you did catch me out.
Damn it!
Jim23... Get her!!!
I'm done for.
You better have a good profile CA, because I'm checking it all the time now :)
Peace

mj
08-08-2001, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by ca
me. me me me me me. definately me. but please remember, I rule :p
...to be you there needs to me more macho, to be Jim there needs to be more macho and a reference to another art that is more macho. just plain wordy is me.

Very funny. Hehehe. Giggle and snigger.

Jim23
08-08-2001, 07:31 PM
Hey guys!

I really like aikido and don't train in anything else but aikido!! (although that Shotokai site was a little too interesting - and they don't compete beyond in-dojo training and consider themselves a DO not a sport;)).

Mark, I'm really impressed with your vocabulary (peurile?), you speak really *cough* good.

Al, that post was like scrambled eggs in my view. I'm still not sure what he likes or was saying, he should have taken a more *cough* seriatim approach to his post.

Ca, I'm really just a self-critical fool who's rarely unhappy, but never satisfied. It just bothers me when people are absolutely sure they are right, until they change their mind, that is.

BTW, you two have the same smile.

Jim23

mj
08-08-2001, 07:35 PM
puerile

Jim23
08-08-2001, 07:56 PM
Damn, you're good!

Why is it that everyone here loves these annoying threads?

Look at the responses.

Anyway, I've been to your dentist:D. What a smile.

Jim23

guest1234
08-08-2001, 08:08 PM
mj, you had me at 'antithetical'...
and Jim, mj and I have the same smile because we are really.....ta da, brother and sister (recognised by our similar small case initials)...could it be that you...ominous music in background...might also be related? or worse yet, a clone?
just try to find me you guys :p

mj
08-08-2001, 08:28 PM
I think that music is leitmotif.
Jim...answer my mail dammit.
Why do we answer these mails? (Fix our spelling mistakes?)
EGO.
But also, we are trying our hardest ;)
And I make such a fool of myself trying :(
Better be worth it in twenty years (30, 40, 50)

Jim23
08-08-2001, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by ca
(recognised by our similar small case initials)
Are you saying that mj has small case initials? :D

Actually, it's lower case, to be technically accurate ... but who gives a flying ... hoot?

Jim23

guest1234
08-08-2001, 11:28 PM
:o...I may not be smart, but I'm not much to look at, either :D

Chocolateuke
08-08-2001, 11:56 PM
hey mj?? hey CA?? hey JIM?? can I join!!! anyhway maybe we could have a vocabyulary section on this site and I could learn 2 things how to spell and raise my vocabulary skills!!..anyways..... just checking!

Paul van Leeuwe
08-09-2001, 05:04 AM
I got quite some reactions from others on my post and I don't feel like rereading them all and quote nicely.

One guy complained that 'ju jitsu was mainly blocking, using power and starting a technique when the other already has firm hold on you'.

Sorry, I can't let that be said as a ju jitsu practitioner, you are only PARTIALLY correct :-)

If you are attacked by surprise the attacker will have a firm hold on you. You must know how to escape and counter. That's an important part of ju jitsu. I suppose Aikido has the same, as it's a selfdefense art.

For many leg throws, it's necessary to 'push or pull' the opponent on one leg mainly and then sweep it. Use an atemi to make it easier, never meet force with force! But then (I must btw say I'm only yellow belt but I saw other techniques in action) we get leg throws usually when somebody punches you. Grab arm, push under chin or at face and sweep. Then hammer your feet in his ribs. Perhaps the technique will be refined later. I must agree that you can't do ju jitsu without using some power (in my opinion) which is the basic difference between aikido and ju jitsu.

We are taught that dodging is much more important then blocking. Sometimes it's better to block as you can use nice techniques as a counter.

Some other guy complained that I did not practice aikido, and 'he lost his respect' or something. Sorry guy, I can't try them all. I talk about karate, boxing, muay thai, kickboxing and many arts but should I have tried them all? One day I will perhaps explore the world of martial arts, but I just feel that ju jitsu is the best one for me. It has techniques, but without being to complex. It has breakfalling, contrary to the 'standing arts'. It has grappling. And I'm not weakly built and I don't care that sometimes I need power. A little. I doubt I will ever learn to blend with the other ones technique well enough to use his power against him, or it must be a simple technique, and hey aikido used to be called aikijujitsu, doesn't it :-) ? The arts are quite similar.

About self-defense. I totally agree with the aikidospirit in one way: AVOID CONFLICT AT ALL COSTS! Friends in your life can be: fear (which makes you avoid situations where you get into trouble, e.g. bad neighbourhoods, drunk people, agressive people etc.). Common sense. Humility (think you can never beat somebody in battle and perhaps you never have to fight). Enemys are: panic (if you have to use your techniques then fear will become your enemy). Western proudness (friends saying: do you let him say that? Well words don't hurt...). Alcohol and other mind-altering things. When I drink I avoid trouble even more. I got a friend saying that 'it was impossible to get trouble with me'. I was proud of it...

IF you really cannot avoid battle, if you can't run away, if you can't talk your way out of it, if your wallet isn't enough for him and he wants to see blood, if you don't have a gun to scare him away, whatever, then my second rule is (the first one is avoiding conflict): DON'T SPARE THE ENEMY! When you have him in a lock, break something. You have done your duty if you have tried to avoid conflict. Locks are for training and they become fractures on the street. Just in case he might escape. Don't say I'd train better to apply the lock correct. I just don't take risks.

The best atemi might be (I usually wear heavy army-boots) to break his knee-disc. Okay he will never walk again as well as he used to do. So? He should have left me alone, and when he did not I have given him countless chances to run away. We are taught at ju jitsu to apply devastating techniques if somebody physically attacks you or grabs you. In self-defense only one thing counts: getting as few injuries as possible. The rest is nothing. The opponent has no rights and no value. Use a gun if you have one. Use a stick. Challenge him (hey if you drop your stick I will drop mine), then keep your stick and make sure he won't walk for half an hour.

I'm sorry if I sound cruel. I am not. As I said dozens of times: I want to avoid conflict. I don't visit discoes. I don't visit pubs where rough people come. If somebody brawls with me I will leave the pub. If somebody wants to kick me out because I violated the dresscode I will leave, even if I did not violate the dresscode. I will go somewhere else where I get no trouble. I don't walk alone on the street at night. I leave stuff of others alone. In contact with rough people I'm friendly even if they are not. And I'm a fast runner, just in case. I have done enough not to harm others and I won't get myself beaten up by somebody because I spared him where he didn't spare me!

I will get disagreements on this, I'm sure :-)

What is irimi? It's the aikido-answer to low kicks, but I have no clue what it is even though we certainly have similar techniques in ju jitsu (btw I also don't know japanese terms except some o-koshi or o-soto-kari or whatever).

One guy said that 'he did not miss punching or kicking' because he would prefer overpowering the opponent without injuring him. That's a fundamental disagreement between him and me then. 'Hey and what if your girlfriend attacks you in a rage of anger'. Difficult one... She should have learned to control his anger. Anger is rarely the desired way to come out of a disagreement. Okay in that case I will use the non-devastating techniques of ju jitsu. Ju jitsu is very complete and allows us to lock, pin and choke (a choke may easily get somebody to rest, I'm sure of that :-) ). Thinking of this now, I've found another reason why taekwondo, karate, kickboxing and other standing arts are very incomplete: some people you just can't hurt.

Ta Kung
08-09-2001, 06:08 AM
One guy said that 'he did not miss punching or kicking' because he would prefer overpowering the opponent without injuring him. That's a fundamental disagreement between him and me then. 'Hey and what if your girlfriend attacks you in a rage of anger'. Difficult one... She should have learned to control his anger.

I'm guilty of saying that...:) Ever thought about what happens AFTER a selfdefense situation? If you injure your opponent too badly, you'll get your pants sued of in court. At least here in Sweden (where it seems sometimes that the agressor has more rights then the victim).

And if the "girlfriend should have learned to control her anger", shouldn't everybody else? Besides, Aikido don't work on girlfriends... they bite and do stuff no-one ever thought possible! :D

But I agree with you to some extent. If for some reason, someone has to have his arm broken or face smashed in, It sure ain't gonna be me... But on the other hand, for me that wouldn't be the first, second or even third way out.

Have a nice day,
Patrik Eng

guest1234
08-09-2001, 06:37 AM
:eek: choking girlfriends!!! girlfriends biting body parts!!! :eek:
I guess one of the reasons I'm in Aikido to learn to avoid attracting/falling for anyone who might attack/choke/bite me. And in any situation to avoid getting to the point in a disagreement that someone is so frustrated/angry/out of control that they resort to physical means of proving a point. I doubt my Aikido will ever be good enough to handle a bunch of attackers, or even one (NOTE: MY Aikido, not AIKIDO)...but I'd like to think I will avoid the situations requiring that superior skill.
Patrik, "Nicky" probably bit you because you gave her away :)

guest1234
08-09-2001, 06:38 AM
PS, Dallas, my spelling is terrible, too, you'd have to see Jim for help on that :D

Ta Kung
08-09-2001, 07:24 AM
Patrik, "Nicky" probably bit you because you gave her away

You think so, Colleen? Maybe she bit me 'cause I took her back?:D

/Patrik (who doesn't fight his girlfriend for reasons other then geting away from doing the dishes....;) )

NYFE Man
08-09-2001, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by Paul van Leeuwe
I got quite some reactions from others on my post and I don't feel like rereading them all and quote nicely. (Snip)

Some other guy complained that I did not practice aikido, and 'he lost his respect' or something. Sorry guy, I can't try them all. I talk about karate, boxing, muay thai, kickboxing and many arts but should I have tried them all? (Snip)

Just to be straight, (I think you were referring to me) YOU didn't lose my respect, the content of the POST did. I do think there's a difference. I know you can't "try them all," neither can I. But I also wouldn't try to argue with a (pulling one out of the air here) Silat guy about the efficacy of his art without at least trying it first!


About self-defense. I totally agree with the aikidospirit in one way: AVOID CONFLICT AT ALL COSTS! (snip)

IF you really cannot avoid battle, if you can't run away, if you can't talk your way out of it, if your wallet isn't enough for him and he wants to see blood, if you don't have a gun to scare him away, whatever, then my second rule is (the first one is avoiding conflict): DON'T SPARE THE ENEMY! When you have him in a lock, break something. You have done your duty if you have tried to avoid conflict. Locks are for training and they become fractures on the street. Just in case he might escape. Don't say I'd train better to apply the lock correct. I just don't take risks. (Snip)

I'm sorry if I sound cruel. I am not. As I said dozens of times: I want to avoid conflict. (Snip)

Okay in that case I will use the non-devastating techniques of ju jitsu. Ju jitsu is very complete and allows us to lock, pin and choke (a choke may easily get somebody to rest, I'm sure of that :-) ). Thinking of this now, I've found another reason why taekwondo, karate, kickboxing and other standing arts are very incomplete: some people you just can't hurt.

I think that much of what you said absolutely fits in with many people's view of Aikido. You suit the level of response to the level of threat. If it's the drunken frat buddy, you don't break his elbow or choke him out -- but a nice pin may keep him safe until he sees things a little more cogently. If, however, one's well-being were threatened, Aikido does allow for "DON'T SPARE THE ENEMY!" A friend who introduced me to Aikido would show me techniques and at various points say "and if I were doing this for real, this is where I'd break your [insert joint or bone here]." I know his ability -- he's not just blowing smoke.

People study ALL martial arts for many reasons. To look at one subset of practitioners and decide on the art as a whole is like the adage of the three blind men experiencing an elephant.

Chocolateuke
08-09-2001, 11:23 AM
hey folks!! this might be way off subject of biting girlfriends and wether aikido sucks or not, but I have a questions for you all. one writer in black belt mag said that a person should only train a art for 6 mounts then move on to a different martail art. what do you think about this? the writer said in his defence that it takes an average of 6 mounths to learn the bacis and that is all you really need then you can move on and have a little of everything. again what do you all think.

for me i have been practacing aikido for 4 years and i still have trouble with the basics now and agian so i think it is bogus to train for 6 mounths in one art then go on to another.

Nick
08-09-2001, 12:37 PM
Wow... big time topic drift... though, with the given topic, that's not necessarily bad...

Nick

[Censored]
08-09-2001, 01:49 PM
hey folks!! this might be way off subject of biting girlfriends and wether aikido sucks or not, but I have a questions for you all. one writer in black belt mag said that a person should only train a art for 6 mounts then move on to a different martail art. what do you think about this? the writer said in his defence that it takes an average of 6 mounths to learn the bacis and that is all you really need then you can move on and have a little of everything. again what do you all think.

I think you will have an abundance of mediocre skills. If you were to change your college major exery six months, how long would it take to graduate? Would any employers in your 5-10 chosen fields be interested in hiring you? Jesus, you might get stuck working as a guidance counselor! :D

Erik
08-09-2001, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by ca
girlfriends biting body parts!!! I guess one of the reasons I'm in Aikido to learn to avoid attracting/falling for anyone who might attack/choke/bite me.

Honestly, you really don't mind a little nibble now and again do you?

Now, for some real martial arts. I'd run if I saw this heading my way

http://www.miniclip.com/dancingbush.htm

Oops! Looks like this is down. Pretty funny though and should be back soon.

guest1234
08-09-2001, 05:14 PM
:o !!!!
Can't say, never tried even minimal cannibalism as a dating ritual...
so how do you guys make the words italicised?

Chocolateuke
08-09-2001, 11:22 PM
hey CA what do girls do on dates.. you see i am gonna ask this gal out ( i was in 4 of classes with her last year...) and well am kinda scared so.......... ( this is not a joke) but this thred is making it all scarier...

Stuart
08-10-2001, 12:12 AM
Ok Ok....

Some of you guys are comparing tae-kwondo to kick-boxing?? Kick-boxing is real!! they wear gloves..a boxer and a kicker together........oweee!!!! No gloves and you are gone.

thats like comparing Judo to aikido, judo will win...... anyday!!! Judo has floor fighting, and guy's that's where it usually end's up in (and women).

You're challenges to fight are very funny to me. Will you pay for the plane fare or even a train. I cannot come anyway...... I HAVE a life!!!!!!

I will agree that steven seagal is quite sexy for a guy and he can fight for films..but only you know? Film's are not real... but guy's like the way he kicks ass ( and women too you know).

Patrik Eng
08-10-2001, 12:38 AM
I think your confusing kickboxing with Thai Boxing! Guess wich art is "more real"?

I cannot come anyway...... I HAVE a life!!!!!!

Really? And what is that, hanging aroud a forum telling other people what they do sucks? If so, yours is a life I don't envy. If not, well I guess we won't hear from you ever again. Right?

/Patrik Eng :D

Stuart
08-10-2001, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Patrik Eng
I think your confusing kickboxing with Thai Boxing! Guess wich art is "more real"?



Really? And what is that, hanging aroud a forum telling other people what they do sucks? If so, yours is a life I don't envy. If not, well I guess we won't hear from you ever again. Right?

/Patrik Eng :D Your hanging around too buddy!


Now an quote....

a research study published in 1995 demonstrates that elite kickboxers possess a VO2 max of 62 (Zabukovec and Tiidus, 1995). In controlled laboratory measurements, elite kickboxers had recorded values of aerobic capacity that are comparable to a person who runs a 4:45 mile, or a 34 minute 10k foot race.

How about you?

Ta Kung
08-10-2001, 01:17 AM
Your hanging around too buddy!

Yeah, but I'm INTERESTED in Aikido! I'm not here to make an ass of myself (not intentionally anyway). :rolleyes:

As far as my health/stamina goes, I've got an 9 out of 10 on the army recruiting test... Sorry, but I don't know how to compare that to the system you (probably) have in the US. Let me just say that I don't have to catch my breath when walking up a stair. ;)
And no, that's not thanks to Aikido. But then again, I don't practise Aikido to be a better fighter nor to dramaticly improve my fysical health. I do other stuff to cover those parts (gym, swiming, running and tkd).

It seems to me you're barking up the wrong tree, my friend. Most of the people here aren't interested in becoming an invincible fighter. As I said before, it's like telling an "old-car collector" that newer cars are faster. Do you understand what I mean? :)

Regards,
Patrik Eng

PS. The quote you had refers to ELITE kickboxers, so how "elite" are you or the AVERAGE kickboxer?

George S. Ledyard
08-10-2001, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by Stuart
I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.

Its very sloopy, and weak. I dont get it? Is this really a martial art or a joke? One punch or kick, and you guys are gone. Sloppy women and men doing it. What a joke.

Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.

I remember an old Zen story about a general who came to the Roshi asking about Heaven and Hell. The Roshi replied that the general was a silly old buffoon and didn't have a clue. The general, being outraged of course, started to draw his sword... The Roshi said "There is the gate to Hell." As the general understood he slid his sword back into the saya whereupon the Roshi said "And there is the gate to Heaven."

We should all be thankful for such a skillful fellow who can so effectively bring out our more beastly sides for us to examine. Perhaps we can all benefit from this. Colleen seems to be able to take the upper road and comes to this with compassion. Much better than the invitation I was tempted to extend.

MJO
08-10-2001, 01:47 AM
It's nice to see how one post can certainly stir up the proverbial "Hornet's Nest." However, everyone has their own reason for practicing aikido. "To each his own," if you feel it is weak. The goal of aikido is to maintain self-control in times of conflict. Hopefully verbal, before physical. I don't believe many aikidokas have ever peformed techniques to their "extreme" capability. Otherwise, we would all have to go to "rent-a-uke" and go through quite a few of them during practice.

Hate to advocate ego deflation, but, there is always someone out there who can kick your ass no matter how well-trained you are in the martial arts. However, I feel Aikido is an effective martial art (for many reasons already posted by others.)

I train at a dojo that incorporates Kodokan Judo, GoJu-Ryu Karate, and a Chinese internal art called Hsing-I with our study of Aikido. It's great to see how each of these separate arts blend into aikido techniques. I believe O-Sensei did say, "Absorb venerable traditions into this new art by clothing them with fresh garments, and build on the classic styles to create better forms." This doesn't make one better than someone who only practices aikido, but it helps the student to learn to strike, kick, grapple and use Aiki-principles to defend against.

Without having to further berate the original post author, I will quote from a old TV show, Leave it to Beaver. Ward told the Beaver, "Son, don't try to prove yourself, but improve yourself." Kind of silly, but I think it makes a point...Now, that's Aikido

[Censored]
08-10-2001, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Stuart
...a research study published in 1995 demonstrates that elite kickboxers possess a VO2 max of 62 (Zabukovec and Tiidus, 1995). In controlled laboratory measurements, elite kickboxers had recorded values of aerobic capacity that are comparable to a person who runs a 4:45 mile, or a 34 minute 10k foot race.

How about you?

That's funny Stu. I train to make THE OTHER GUY sweat, pant, and run away. :)

Mike Collins
08-10-2001, 05:56 PM
Yeah, well my Daddy can whup up on your Daddy any old time.

And asides kickboxin isn't as swell as kurotty or kong fu anyway.

An your a big fat juicy stooooopid.

REK
08-10-2001, 06:57 PM
You know, I have to admit that when I initially saw this guy's cyberraspberry I got very hopeful. My wish was that no one would respond at all. How funny would that have been?

There is only one domain of existence in which this guy would change his mind, and it's not possible in an internet forum. It requires new experience. I don't necessarily mean an experience that would require a visit to the local apothecary. Colleen has been lauded (and I think rightfully so) for her reaction to him. New experience might mean (especially with regards to what may be seen as a primitive character structure) that this guy really listened to what Colleen had to say and respond to it. Well, it's clear he will not step onto a mat or make himself vulnerable to her personal acceptance. For our part, we are not responsible for convincing everyone that what we do is meaningful, useful or any other adjective.

To bastardize an old saw; let's give him nothing to oppose and he will leave on his own.

Rob

stratcat
08-11-2001, 01:33 AM
Y'know, seeing posts like this makes me wonder... Every so often posts like this come around, and they get an excessively hostile response.

I'm pretty sure Stuart's initial inflammatory remarks went up yesterday or so. So seeing no less than 96 replies bothers me a little bit: why should we become so enervated by what he says? Certainly, he's entitled to his opinion, and if he doesn't like Aikido... well, that's his prerogative. Some of us don't like Kickboxing, or Muai Thai, or Krav Maga, or Aikinimpoju-jutsukai or whatever is the flavor of the month nowadays.

I get the feeling that we try too hard to prove to those who say they're the "Martial Arts Community", who, by the way, tend to have the spirit of Martial Arts mixed up with the spirit of destructive machismo, that Aikido "works" that "we can kick your butt" whatever, etc., etc. It's almost as if it's a cultural thing: for a Martial Art to be "real" it has to be overtly hard and brutal, and sometimes we find it difficult, as Aikidoka, to overcome this stereotype.

Live and let live, I say. I don't train to prove myself to others who have little or no idea of where I'm coming from, and I'm sure neither does the rest of us. Certainly, I'm not adverse to the idea of cross- pollination in the Martial Arts. Aikido has much to offer, and we can benefit just as much from learning other Arts, maybe even come up with new and exciting things. My teacher is a direct product of this type of pollination- he's trained in a whole bunch of martial arts, and gotten even dan grades (or their equivalent) in a several of them... And what does he teach? What is he leaving as a legacy? AIKIDO. Certainly spiced up with other things, but nothing that we think O'Sensei would dissaprove of. O'Sensei himself studied many different Martial Arts before coming up with Aikido. Things that make you go hmmm...

So Stuart, let me make you a proposal. First of all, understand that what you said is inflammatory, if not insulting- if some of have replied in less than courteous ways, understand that we too are proud of our chosen path, its history and tradition; just as you should be in yours. But pride is often harmful; it leads to blocking the flow of energy in ourselves, and we cannot learn or grow.

Second of all: remember to keep an open mind- any Martial Art worth it's salt often hides a lot more below the surface than is readily apparent.

I propose this: instead of challenging you to a "duel", why instead don't you come down to our dojo, meet with my teacher, talk amongst us and, with an open mind, learn why we are proud of this Art; then I'll go over to your dojo and learn why you are proud of yours.

It's not enough just to say why you are proud of "X" Art, remember, Stuart, talk is cheap.

A.

mj
08-11-2001, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by mj
If you don't all SHUT UP right now... I will CRUSH all of you with my superior JUDO!
Your arts are all obsolete. You've wasted your lives!!!
You are FOOLS because you are not...ME.
I alone know all the answers.
I alone can beat everyone.
You foolish people.
BE QUIET!!!!
I AM TALKING SO BE QUIEEEET!!!
Only MY opinion counts, and if you DARE disagree with me. WELL.....
I will just keep REPEATING MYSELF!
So DO AS I SAY!
I hope everyone spotted that I wasn't attacking Stuart with that post.
Stratcast's post reminded me, that in the old days (sigh) violent confrontation was the way things were settled. You went to the Other Dojo, challenged the best student, if you won you could challenge the Dojo Master. If you won that you could take the dojo nameplate with you when you left.Injury and death were common. Most dojos were financially dependent on a good fighting reputation. People would not pay to be second best. Nowadays they all seem to have taken the politically expedient option of saying 'live and let live'.
Of course, this is the more mature (enlightened) 'stance' (hehe) to take, but in the old days, we would all be seen as weak :(
For all our talk of peace, and I never shut up about it ;)
Are there any of US who has never pointed out that Osensei was undefeated?
This is just rambling, though. And I'm first to point out that my post isn't going anywhere.
hehe, long ramble :)

George S. Ledyard
08-11-2001, 12:41 PM
You know my usual reaction to these guys goes through stages. Of course like most of the "guys" my first reaction is "Oh yeah! Well come visit my dojo and we'll play a bit". Of course since I am striving to be some sort of civilized being and if nothing else a decent example for my students, I usually get myself back to a higher plane after a bit.

But, you know, I almost always end up a bit depressed by these guys. Think about it... They have so little going for them that they are willing to go on the internet and humiliate themselves in front of a WORLD WIDE audience just to get a little attention. It's kind of like seeing pictures of Biafran kids starving but on an emotional level.

You end up wanting to send an emotional CARE package but there isn't any way to do that. It ends up just making me feel sad (which is probably why I have the desire to thrash them in the first place because that is a much easier emotion to handle)

guest1234
08-11-2001, 02:00 PM
I loved the story about the general and the monk, Ledyard Sensei; I bet I wasn't the only one who felt a cold shiver pass through me thinking about what kind of an invitation you could extend if you desired...:eek:
hmm, on the other hand, when I first started flying, I got my best rides by telling the pilots they couldn't make me sick...maybe I could get really intense training if I wandered into dojos telling the instructors their technique was pitiful :D
First, I guess I should check on my medical coverage, however :rolleyes:

George S. Ledyard
08-11-2001, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by ca
I loved the story about the general and the monk, Ledyard Sensei; I bet I wasn't the only one who felt a cold shiver pass through me thinking about what kind of an invitation you could extend if you desired...:eek:
hmm, on the other hand, when I first started flying, I got my best rides by telling the pilots they couldn't make me sick...maybe I could get really intense training if I wandered into dojos telling the instructors their technique was pitiful :D
First, I guess I should check on my medical coverage, however :rolleyes:

We had a karate student come in a couple opf yaers ago who had been told by his karate teacher that Aikido was a waste of time and didn't work. He was brought in by a couple of my Aikido friends who knew him and wanted to give him some exposure. He was really rather nice, not obnoxious at all and was in great shape so I proceeded to bounce him all over the dojo for two hours and when he left he wanted to find an Aikido school near where he lived so he could train. I guess it was different from what he had been told.

I remember the old days at Mary Heiny Sensei's dojo where there were a large number of accomplished female practitioners. My friend Mark Reader would come into the men's changing room and tell me that he really wanted a good workout that night so he would then say in a STAGE WHISPER "I really don't think that girls are suited for Aikido" all the while with a big grin on his face. He would then get the workout of his life from all the women who had overheard him. It was very funny and typically Reader.

Brian H
08-12-2001, 08:43 AM
Stuart is obviously a young guy, full of piss and vinegar. I am older and full of beer and beans. I CHALLENGE Stuart to join men in an small, unventilated room to see who can walk out a man.

mj
08-12-2001, 03:09 PM
Hi Brian :)
You're invinting him to a drinking competition?
Oooooh....
in vino veritas

Jim23
08-12-2001, 03:31 PM
Ha ha! :D :D. Good one!

That must be the best post in this thread. :D

And if they end up sparring, remember to aim for the middle person. :D :D

Jim23

guest1234
08-12-2001, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by mj
Hi Brian :)
You're invinting him to a drinking competition?
Oooooh....
in vino veritas

uh, I think it is more like a Ki breathing exercise :D

Armyaiki
08-12-2001, 04:19 PM
I have been watching this post for days and was quite shocked to see the reaction that Stuart got to his attack. I then thought that I would want to bash him, along with most others ( notible exceptions Colleen, George Ledyard Sensei, and Andy Hertz). I was reminded by these last posts truly what Aikido is about. To me Aikido is about controlling yourself for it is easy to hurt and maim someone. This takes no skill. The thing I have gotton from my very short time in Aikido is that making my enemy my friend is what Aikido is about. If you can master this technique then you will not have to worry about being the biggest badass on the planet, because you will only have friends.

Quite an incoherent ramble, but I hope I got the point across.

mj
08-12-2001, 04:53 PM
Hi ArmyAiki :)
I agree.
But could I point out (again)..
I don't think I have attacked Stuart ;)
However... if he starts to pick on me personally... I'll pay Jun to give me his server address. (joke)
Thanks Jim :D
I feel a return to long lost form coming.
What is it you Yoshinkan guys say?
'Enter through form, exit from form'

Chocolateuke
08-12-2001, 05:45 PM
army aiki when did I attack stuart I just gave him advice and shruged saying everyone is different i never attacted that he was evil or anything..... but I agree hey CA wanna nother story

there was an old flute player, and a theif. the theif tryed to steal whatever money the flute player had. but the flute player began playing his flute and overwhelmed the theif with his music.

no that is extended ki!!!

Phil Traunstein
08-12-2001, 08:07 PM
:square: Hi Stuart,
Great post. It has stimulated so many great responses, from the ridiculous to the sublime. After reading all those posts aren't you just a little curious? I would be or was two decades ago. Actually I still am. There is so much to learn. The roots of Aikido lie in the sword arts and in the spear. My biggest fear is not a young strong buck coming into the dojo to challenge but that I will run out of time.
Thank you everyone for your posts.
Phil

guest1234
08-12-2001, 09:34 PM
Hi Dallas,
So the musician was able to show the thief the beauty in his world, and change his intent from evil? Nice story!

darin
08-13-2001, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Stuart
I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.

Its very sloopy, and weak. I dont get it? Is this really a martial art or a joke? One punch or kick, and you guys are gone. Sloppy women and men doing it. What a joke.

Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.

Think about this:

1. My brother, brown belt and social worker often dealing with problem children, successfully dissarmed a teenager attacking him with a pool cue.

2. friend, who was a yellow belt, was having his pocket picked. He turned around and twisted the pick pockets wrist.

3. I showed a workmate who knows nothing about aikido a simple technique. He used it in a bar, on a man much bigger than himself, to break up a potential fight.

cbrf4zr2
08-13-2001, 11:15 PM
Aikido doesnt work?

Well neither do swords, or katanas, or...

<Scene 1>
There's nice shiny katana sitting on the table - one of the most deadly non projectile weapons in the world. And it just sits there - but wait it's not killing anyone - oh man these katanas suck, it doesn't even do anything. This katana sucks, sucks sucks sucks sucks...it cant even cut fruit.

<Scene 2>
Someone who actually knows how to use it walks in picks it up and slices a concrete slab into two pieces.

Hey guess what it does work after all.
I guess I was a dumbass.

Tell you what Stuart - I haven't been around Aikido long enough to want to redirect all the violent energy you're throwing our collective way. So tell you what - you say you don't want to fly/bus/drive somewhere - I'll come to you. I have 2 weeks vacation left to burn, a free plane ticket to anywhere in the US or Canada, and considering I'm not married or involved with anyone, I have nothing to lose. You say you're too busy to go anywhere - I'll go against "proper Aikido"
and I'll come to you. All I need is 30 seconds of your time, and you can go on with your precious, pathetic life.

So tell me Stuart - When and where? And don't give me that "tomorrow" crap, at least give me a reasonable amount of time to get the travel preparations made.

So - all you fellow Aikidoka - should I break his ankle or dislocate his hip and/or knee when he throws his first kick? Please tell me what technique you'd like to seen thrown first.

That's right an aggressive Aikidoka...that's why they call me "Street Uke" at my dojo :D

guest1234
08-14-2001, 12:09 AM
Gee, two weeks of vacation time and a free ticket to anywhere...I'm thinking of all the great seminars I could go to, or visit Mom (sorry, it came to mind almost as soon as seminar :) ), or even just lie on some beach somewhere my beeper won't reach...:D

JJF
08-14-2001, 03:12 AM
Hey Colleen! Ever concidered doing stand up at Aikido dojo parties ? You seem to allways have that extra amount of mental capacity to twist thing around and see it in a funny context. Very 'Aiki' - in my humble opinion. Personally I'm working on that seminar/mom issue by constantly trying to persuade my mom to take up Aikido. She's no spring chicken but I think she would really like it.
Oh by the way - most beepers does have an on/off button ;)

To Edward: I have to say I don't approve on beating up Stuart to prove against he's point - As you say yourself it is not the proper Aiki respons. (Since everybody else by now are busy nodding and telling each other that I certainly understand, I wisper in a low and confidential voice: "Go get him with a Nikyo and a Shiho-nage oh oh oh and give him a really nice and hard Iriminage just to prove your (our) point...." ;))

See you all!

cbrf4zr2
08-14-2001, 07:34 AM
Colleen -

I JUST got back from a seminar with guest Hatayama Shihan in Chicago, which was great. Even got to throw him and get thrown by him a couple times. I work with family so, I uh - see my mommy plenty. As far as a beach goes - I hate going on vacations alone.

JJF -

I think deep down everyone would like to really show Stuart how effective Aikido can be...that is of course if they feel their Aikido will do the trick.

Stuart

My feeling is this - some people (and I know this for a fact) only take Aikido as a "dance class." I would actually agree with your "Aikido is crap" stance if you saw one of these classes because I've worked with some of these people who only "dance." And these are 3rd/4th kyu and higher ranks. Their Aikido would never be effective if attacked, and they will openly admit it. In fact they have openly admitted it. I personally hate working with people who 'train' in this manner - but to each theor own. Unfortunately, to label the whole art based on seeing a class with what I assume to be dancers (or maybe even perhaps a class with a lot of beginners) is extremely short sighted. If you want to see how it really works however - my offer still stands.

guest1234
08-14-2001, 12:14 PM
Ed,
I'm glad you had such a great time at the seminar...
some of us see a difference between effective and destructive; but then, I like solo vacations because I meet more new folks that way...I guess I'm just one of those who luckily don't have to work on changing anyone but themselves

cbrf4zr2
08-14-2001, 12:20 PM
Colleen

I know the difference between destructive and effective - the 'dancers' I was talking about are neither of those two things. As far as vacations and meeting people - must have something to do with looks, appearance, and presentation - because I never meet anyone when going solo. Then again I've been told I'm a rather imposing figure and unapproachable - so that meeting new people part is non-existant on my end.

guest1234
08-14-2001, 12:32 PM
That's funny, you seem very approachable right now... ;)
Maybe you should try the Netherlands, not only are the Dutch an extremely friendly group, they are on the most part VERY tall... :D

cbrf4zr2
08-14-2001, 01:17 PM
Colleen

That's cause you ain't seen what I look like. Wow I have a mastertation of the English language.

guest1234
08-14-2001, 03:52 PM
Well, I don't know, take off those dark glasses :cool:
:eek:
just kidding :D
I find smiling eyes go a long way in making big scary tough guys more approachable...

cbrf4zr2
08-14-2001, 03:55 PM
Really?

Do you know where I can get the smiley face contact lenses?

lt-rentaroo
08-14-2001, 04:04 PM
OK you two, no more flirting; there are some young readers in here :D

cbrf4zr2
08-14-2001, 04:06 PM
Louis -

I'm pretty sure this isn't flirting - I'm guessing Colleen is old enough to be...well...nevermind...I won't go that far...but I'm pretty sure...um...nevermind.

guest1234
08-14-2001, 04:49 PM
Grandmother, old enough to be your grandmother, I believe were the words you were tactfully avoiding :p sigh
See, Louis, sounds like a whole new conversation now, right? ;)

lt-rentaroo
08-14-2001, 05:34 PM
Ummm, I was only joking around. Just bored with paperwork at work :rolleyes:


It's just with all those smiley faces and sunglass faces, well nevermind :p

It's time to go home and prepare for class.

Mike Collins
08-14-2001, 05:48 PM
6 pages of continuously deteriorating nonsense and general doo doo in response to a clear example of trolling by someones snotnosed kid.

Aikido Journal bulletin board is filled with stuff about people being rude to each other, and how it should stop.

EBudo has some of the same stuff.

Otherwise there is stuff about who has what rank, what organization has the real stuff, etcetera.

There has just gotta be something worth discussion, other than this crap.

Or maybe all discussion devolves into this, just as TV goes to the lowest common denominator. Maybe people just talk to hear our heads roar?

Erik
08-14-2001, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
There has just gotta be something worth discussion, other than this crap.

If I may ask, what do you have in mind?

By the way, I noticed you all moved. How is the new dojo?

Jim23
08-14-2001, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
6 pages of continuously deteriorating nonsense and general doo doo in response to a clear example of trolling by someones snotnosed kid.

Aikido Journal bulletin board is filled with stuff about people being rude to each other, and how it should stop.

EBudo has some of the same stuff.

Otherwise there is stuff about who has what rank, what organization has the real stuff, etcetera.

There has just gotta be something worth discussion, other than this crap.

Or maybe all discussion devolves into this, just as TV goes to the lowest common denominator. Maybe people just talk to hear our heads roar?

Yes, you are right. But, do you realize that your post is the second to last in this continuously deteriorating nonsensical thread? (That'll soon change, I'm sure.)

Now, what does that say about your post?:) Pretty low on the food chain, isn't it?

Relax. This brought out the best and worst of the folks here.

It's a bit like real life, really. Someone makes a negative comment towards your beliefs - and your true character comes out (meaning everyone's). What?? I'm an aikidoka ... I challenge you, come and fight me ... you should have seen what other forums are like, they wouldn't put up with this rubbish ... right.

Jim23

Mike Collins
08-15-2001, 10:09 AM
Oh, I know. Hell, I took part in this thread of dissipation.

As to what I had in mind, well I don't really care, just so its not another rehash of who's the toughest hombre on the planet, or who can kick Steven Seagals butt, or why Iwama is superior to Ki Society yada yada yada.

New dojo, well it's clean. It's hot. It's not in Japantown, and I miss the old, dirty, funky space. Funny part is, I was one of the biggest whiners about the old place and the funk. Ya just can't please some folks.

How about this for a topic:

What would the perfect dojo look and feel like?

Magma
08-15-2001, 10:43 AM
Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees, I just finished reading this entire thread and I can't believe this statement went unchallenged:

Originally posted by Paul van Leeuwe
IF you really cannot avoid battle, if you can't run away, if you can't talk your way out of it, if your wallet isn't enough for him and he wants to see blood, if you don't have a gun to scare him away, whatever, then my second rule is (the first one is avoiding conflict): DON'T SPARE THE ENEMY! When you have him in a lock, break something. You have done your duty if you have tried to avoid conflict. Locks are for training and they become fractures on the street. Just in case he might escape. Don't say I'd train better to apply the lock correct. I just don't take risks.

The best atemi might be (I usually wear heavy army-boots) to break his knee-disc. Okay he will never walk again as well as he used to do. So? He should have left me alone, and when he did not I have given him countless chances to run away. We are taught at ju jitsu to apply devastating techniques if somebody physically attacks you or grabs you. In self-defense only one thing counts: getting as few injuries as possible. The rest is nothing. The opponent has no rights and no value. Use a gun if you have one. Use a stick. Challenge him (hey if you drop your stick I will drop mine), then keep your stick and make sure he won't walk for half an hour.

Wow. Paul, I know you don't practice aikido, but this is beyond human decency. Imagine being in court because you hurt someone in this way.

Prosecutor: So after you asked him for the gun, did he give it to you?
Paul: No, he did not.
Pros: I see. So what did you do next?
Paul: I asked him again. Three more times.
Pros: And then, when he didn't give you the gun?
Paul: I managed to wrestle him to the ground, put him into a locking hold and take the gun from him.
Pros: So at this point, with him securely locked and you in control of the gun, was he hurt?
Paul: I don't think so.
Pros: What did you do next?
Paul: I pistol whipped him into unconsciousness.
Pros: Why? Was there someone else around you that was attacking you? Maybe a friend of his?
Paul: No.
Pros: I see.
Paul: At least he wasn't going to be walking for a while.

And I don't buy that you were talking about meeting an attack with an appropriate response. That is a dynamic balance changing from moment to moment... you have your attacker in a lock, he is no longer a threat to you. If he resists, apply the lock a bit more tightly. If he still resists, apply the lock a bit more tightly. But that is not what you were talking about. Challenge him to put down his stick and then keep yours? Then beat on him until you're sure that he won't walk for a half hour? If he puts his stick down the threat level has already gone down.

"The opponent has no rights and no value," is an egotistical cop-out.

I feel sorry for you that your training and/or your instructors haven't taught you this, but you are not only learning self-defense techniques, you should be learning responsibility, too. Responsibility to take care of not only yourself, but your neighbors... including that guy you just disarmed who is looking at you thinking that after losing his job, getting called from two or three creditors that morning, hearing that his kid in the hospital took a turn for the worse -- after all of that, how could things get any worse?

Well, I guess you're about to show him how, aren't you?

ps, I think the same is true in our treatment of Stuart: we know we have him "pinned" because we who are still training and posting see the benefit in it that he is missing. If he insists on continuing to be an ass, then as CBR and Greg (among others) have offered, the opportunity for Stuart to see/feel aikido may help...

sceptoor
08-15-2001, 11:07 AM
That was a great post, and you're right, I was surprised no one said anything about it, but I think maybe people were just trying to stick with the original subject. That post was quite appalling though and I'm glad someone responded to it. It was well said.

Erik
08-15-2001, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
Oh, I know. Hell, I took part in this thread of dissipation.

As to what I had in mind, well I don't really care, just so its not another rehash of who's the toughest hombre on the planet, or who can kick Steven Seagals butt, or why Iwama is superior to Ki Society yada yada yada.

I hear ya but it's really interesting how certain threads come up time and time again. Sometimes I wonder if this practice really has any more depth than ping pong. Actually, I really don't believe it does.

New dojo, well it's clean. It's hot. It's not in Japantown, and I miss the old, dirty, funky space. Funny part is, I was one of the biggest whiners about the old place and the funk. Ya just can't please some folks.

You must be getting spoiled with that teaching lineup. Jeez, a 6th and a 7th. Then again, it's the Bay Area, it's not like you can't drive 20 minutes in any direction and find at least a 5th dan. Still I think you are going to get spoiled.

Fausto
08-15-2001, 01:10 PM
Maybe in the aikido class that you saw they pretend to throw and hold the other guy, but in REAL aikido you don't pretend!!!!!!!

If you go to rome email me calefas683bdp@hotmail.com and i'll take you to a REAL aikido class and after the training you'll have a totally differnt point of view!!!!! and besides you can't take any conclusions after watching just 1 one class, and i won't take out my shirt cuz it's not necessary!.

Arrivederci :cool:

Carlos
08-15-2001, 01:40 PM
IF you really cannot avoid battle, if you can't run away, if you can't talk your way out of it, if your wallet isn't enough for him and he wants to see blood, if you don't have a gun to scare him away, whatever, then my second rule is (the first one is avoiding conflict): DON'T SPARE THE ENEMY! When you have him in a lock, break something. You have done your duty if you have tried to avoid conflict. Locks are for training and they become fractures on the street. Just in case he might escape. Don't say I'd train better to apply the lock correct. I just don't take risks.



Paul,

I understand you opinion about violence. Sometimes there is no other option, but I don't buy that.

Listen to your words, read them, more than once and think about it. Yes, is very male to broke other guy, beat him without mercy, he is the enemy, he is nothing!!!

You should see "karate kid", the movie. The karate instrutor tell his students the same words, and his students act like beasts.

In Brazil we have the same problems with jiu jitsu people who think they are super men. They talk the same arguments, if this happen, if that....blablabla, I crush him!!!!

In general they go to bar, night club even movies (six or more...never alone). One of the guys "create" that kind of situation and all of them beat the "fool". I repeat "all of them".

If someone really tried to hurt you and you react with the same attitude, it's ok. But if you crush his skull with a hammer because he tried to stole you wallet, well, read the law, you are nothing more than murder.

I like jiu jitsu and I respect the practitioners, only the serious. The danger is the bad instructors who build bad students.
The instruction that enable you to defend yourseld it's very good, without hesitation or fear. But you don't need to smash the aggressor to stop the fight.

Carlos

http://aikido.paginainicial.com.br

jeremy_l
08-15-2001, 05:29 PM
That's the point!

Whenever an aikido technique is done perfectly, it doesn't look strong!

Please do not underestimate a very good aikidoka. Because that's one mistake a martial artist must never make.

Chocolateuke
08-15-2001, 11:55 PM
I have a question why is male engergy or male people in general veiwed as distructive and female engergy or people veiwed as giving and buliding ??

guest1234
08-16-2001, 12:53 AM
I like your version a lot better than male as positive, female as negative. Another view is male as active and female as passive, undoubtedly tied to their roles in producing a family (although anyone who views the female part of that as passive has never been in a delivery room:rolleyes:

Males are usually more aggressive (and often destructive) compared to females because they have more muscle mass: they can be. Females tend to be more nurturing and peace seeking, often because they need to be. Some folks think centuries of evolution may have selected out this behavior: the males who could beat up everyone else got to pass on their genes, and the more nurturing females were better at raising the offspring and hence passing on their genes. But since evolution may fly in the face of the teachings of the Great Pumpkin, I'm not going to go any further on that ;)

Still, not everyone follows the average, and in fact the ancient Egyptians god of war and destruction was actually a lion-headed goddess, Sekmet.

mariko nakamura
08-16-2001, 03:24 AM
Reading these words gives me mixed emotions. I don`t really know what to think. In our dojo, we have more yudansha than not. Just about everybody is a black belt. And still our sensai tells us that it will take us more than ten years to master the basics. I think that he is right. I`ve never done anything else in my life that required so much of me. When I lived in the states I took Karate for a long time. The first time I went to the dojo and told sensei that I wanted to learn Aikido, he asked me if I have trained with any other budo before and I said Yes, I`m a karate expert. I can even break boards. Then he laughed and told me to hit him as hard as I hit the boards. So I hit him, or at least tried( for about 5 minutes). Finally I found the opening I was looking for and gave him my shot. The next thing I remember I was spinning uncontrolably trying to find my feet. When I thought my balance was returning, the next thing that happened, I was flying high in the air. Then I fell.
As I was laying on the floor trying to recover, sensei looked down at me with this glowing smile and said to me, "I guess you never learned how to fall".:confused:

George S. Ledyard
08-16-2001, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Chocolateuke
hey folks!! this might be way off subject of biting girlfriends and wether aikido sucks or not, but I have a questions for you all. one writer in black belt mag said that a person should only train a art for 6 mounts then move on to a different martail art. what do you think about this? the writer said in his defence that it takes an average of 6 mounths to learn the bacis and that is all you really need then you can move on and have a little of everything. again what do you all think.

for me i have been practacing aikido for 4 years and i still have trouble with the basics now and agian so i think it is bogus to train for 6 mounths in one art then go on to another.

Yes, and the guy who does this ends up being a Green belt in everything. How wonderful to be equally incompetent in multiple arts. This is just a dumb idea.

Take one art and get into it on a deep level. Everything after that will come more easily and you will have a context into which you fit the information you get from new arts. Look at how many of the great martial artisits have judo as the foundation of their training. If you develop a solid ability in judo everything else can be relatively easily added. I think the same can be said of Aikido if it is done well. I have had occasion to train in a number of other arts and I found that the lessons I had learned in aikido made evrything elsea lot easier. (The trouble is that everything gets Aikido-ized because that is my main focus. It's hard to keep the arts really separate when you have one that is so dominent).

Brian Vickery
08-16-2001, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Stuart
I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.

Its very sloopy, and weak. I dont get it? Is this really a martial art or a joke? One punch or kick, and you guys are gone. Sloppy women and men doing it. What a joke.

Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.


When this message was first posted I thought it would just be ignored by everyone in here! ...that it wasn't worth dignifying it with a response!

...but boy was I wrong!!! ...140 responses later it's still going strong! And with some very interesting points of view, and some great twists & turns!

Go figure?!?!

Chuck.Gordon
08-16-2001, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Stuart
I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.

Its very sloopy, and weak. I dont get it? Is this really a martial art or a joke? One punch or kick, and you guys are gone. Sloppy women and men doing it. What a joke.

Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.

Yes, yes, of course, you're right, aikido is a sham, the only REAL martial art is SINANJU, the ur-budo from which all others are descendend and compared to which all others are mere weak reflections as in a mirror clouded by the breath of a pregnant yak.

Oh, wait, sorry. That's something else entirely.

Never mind.

Aikido. Yes, I see you invested lots of time into finding out about it and now you know all you need to know. Good. Your mission is complete. Well done! You have uncovered the secret!

Now, go home and let all these poor deluded souls revel in our weakness and sloopiness (sic).

Chuck Gordon

Mike Collins
08-16-2001, 05:46 PM
Chuck!!!!!!!!!

You must never ever ever again mention Sinanju, the mother of all arts, or the 418th Grandmaster, Chiun. If you insist on this behavior, I will have to have a word with my friend, the Emperor Smith.

That was the single most enlightened post on this entire thread. I love all reference to "The Destroyer". Used to eat those books up 4 in a weekend when I was a kid of about 20 (when I could see through the alcohol fog).

mj
08-16-2001, 07:18 PM
Me too.... Murder Ward, Assassins' Play-off etc
But Mikey... wasn't his name nuich? :D

Mike Collins
08-16-2001, 07:40 PM
It was for one or two books, right? I forget the deal with that. There may/should be one or several I missed

mj
08-16-2001, 07:53 PM
Ahhhhhhh :rolleyes: Those were the days.

Maybe it was THOSE books that got me into Aikido :confused:

Mares
08-24-2001, 02:02 AM
That was interesting to read. I haven't read all the responses but i get the feeling this bloke is either haveing a lend of us, or he is just ignorant. But I must say that I am glad the he is not a Student of Aikido becasue I dont' believe Aikido has a place for people like him. Needless to say Aikido is the study and practise of Bujitsu, Budo and Bushin. And it is through the practise of all three that we achieve "happiness". He is obviously missing two of the 3 components. He may be tough, and he undoubtedly has an ego inversely proportionate to the size of his penis, but he will never achieve true happiness through sheer violence and aggression. If he truly belive his elbows are tough then he obviously hasn't felt a sankyo from my sensei or any other 5th dan or higher.

Tharis
05-19-2004, 09:35 PM
See? Conflict generated creativity! Aikido!

:D

I know this thread has been dead for several years, but upon finding it, I just couldn't resist;)

Yours in ukemi,

Thomas

domidude
05-20-2004, 03:38 AM
i started aikido 6 month ago, for no other reason but the dojo being close and the exercise being just good for my age and weight...
also about 8 month ago i was attacked but did not think to go and start learning self defense as a result of the attack because i could have not done anything anyway to prevent a deep cut to my face with a glass... so, the way it happened: i was talking to a girl at a small quiet party, suddenly a jelaous ex boyfriend came up to me from the side (just slighly in my view) and smashed his glass in my face. i had tp throw all my clothes and even my shoes out because i could not wash the blood out.. so what did i do? i told the guy that it was crasy, to stop acting like a fool and spoiling the party, to call fo ambulance, and that no i won't get in a fight just because i respect the hostess, and her home, and no i will not call the police, i am happy it is over and hope that he realized how stupid he was, than i went to hospital... he wanted me to punch him telling me because he feels so bad about what he had done... i said he was stupid again and that i will not punch him
when i told the story about the big scar on my face to my aikido instructor he said what i did and how i behaved was real aikido before i even started going to aikido class...
...and the girls like my face now better than before....

"whatever you do: do it with love" (whosaidthat?)

GLWeeks
05-20-2004, 08:34 AM
http://www.slightlywarped.com/forumpictures/trolls/feed_troll.jpg

Dennis Hooker
05-21-2004, 06:43 AM
Hay George here is another little story
Several years ago when I moved to Pensacola Florida I was trying to get a small club started. Jerry Blank was a young man that had just won the World Full Contact Karate Championship in Hong Kong. Such things were big at that time. He was a very nice young man interested in Aikido but not in wasting his time. He had a large Shotokan Karate School going at that time as well. He ask me if we could train together for a few moments. We did and after that he helped me set up a club and gave me the honor of sending his several of his ranking students over to get me going. Later that year the founder of Shotokan Karate, Yamamoto Sensei came to visit his American students and Jerry brought him to an martial arts demo where all the schools from that part of the state gathered at the university. A lot of karate and judo and other stuff. He never moved when each group did their thing. When we finished he stood and applauded and for several years after that whenever he came to America he would ask me to set with him as he reviewed his students. I reckon he saw something he liked.

Dennis Hooker
www.shindai.com


We had a karate student come in a couple opf yaers ago who had been told by his karate teacher that Aikido was a waste of time and didn't work. He was brought in by a couple of my Aikido friends who knew him and wanted to give him some exposure. He was really rather nice, not obnoxious at all and was in great shape so I proceeded to bounce him all over the dojo for two hours and when he left he wanted to find an Aikido school near where he lived so he could train. I guess it was different from what he had been told.

I remember the old days at Mary Heiny Sensei's dojo where there were a large number of accomplished female practitioners. My friend Mark Reader would come into the men's changing room and tell me that he really wanted a good workout that night so he would then say in a STAGE WHISPER "I really don't think that girls are suited for Aikido" all the while with a big grin on his face. He would then get the workout of his life from all the women who had overheard him. It was very funny and typically Reader.

Dennis Hooker
05-21-2004, 01:04 PM
That should have been Yoshinkan karate n0t shotokan

Troy
05-21-2004, 09:43 PM
Hello,
I read your post. I once thought the way you do. I looked at photos, and what-not. Then I started reading about Aikido. I do not know what you saw, but I can understand why you thought it was a weak art.

In Aikido, we train "unrealistically" to better understand the dynamics of the technique and of the human body. The Uke (attacker) and the Nage (defender) work together to understand and learn. Once they both understand the technique more, they can play with it. Go faster, resist a hold, pin, or throw easier. I can say, that once you feel the FULL POWER of an Aikido technique, you will be sour for a few days. That is why, in Aikido, we do not use the full power of the art in the Dojo. But if we do, it is with the Sensei and the highest ranking student, and it is for the purpose of demonstraiting the tech, but that rarely happens.

We also train with Bokkens (wodden swords) so we can more understand the Art. almost all of the moves in Aikido where taken from swordman-ship forms. Using the Bokken helps us better our center of gravity, and helps our movement.

Their is ALOT I have learned sence I opened my mind a bit more, and now I love it. IN Karate-Do, and Kick Boxing, you train slow and "fake looking" as well. This is so you can better understand the art. And if you do have to use it on the street, the movements will be in your muscle memory, because you trained slow, and built up your streanth.

I could go on forever, and I'm sure you could too. Like I said earlier... I was once like you.

I am reminded of a passage from an Aikido book I read over and over. A kick boxer was at an Aikido seminar in japan. He was told "NEVER attack an Aikido man! You will be thrown for sure if you do!" So, he sat and watched for a bit, and he thought as you did. So he hesitated in attacking, and when he did finally attack... he was thrown ten feet.

If you have any more questions, PLEASE, feel free to e mail me
NewType@white-star.com
I love talking about Aikido and martial arts in general. ANd I feel that I can help you in your journey, where ever it may lead you in the Budo world.

Take care,

Troy Copes
7th Kyu
Yellow Springs Aikido (www.ysaohio.com)

Troy
05-21-2004, 09:50 PM
Oh yeah...

In Aikido, we don't "fight" really. We defend ourselves, while not harming the attacker. This way, we defeat the attacker from the inside out. So he will think that he isn't so bad-ass as he thought he was, and give up fighting people, which will save others from the attack or what-have-you.

Nafis Zahir
05-22-2004, 12:46 AM
To Stuart and the Gentleman who said aikido failed him: Let me set the record straight. I studied kung fu and some karate for 7 years prior to studying aikido. In every martial art, it takes time to learn and understand the "practical application" side of a martial art. In aikido, this process takes even longer. The reason is too long for me to post here, but I will say that even though the process takes longer, aikido is more practical in a self defense situation. Stuart! Alot of people watch an aikido class and feel the way you do, because they don't understand what they're looking at. If you saw someone attack me and I did an aikido technique, it would look smooth and all and the person would nicely go flying through the air. Looks pretty and too easy! However, what you don't realize is that my partner is receiving the technique. This helps me to learn proper application and keeps my partner from being hurt.

One day, a person who took karate was talking the same kind of trash you were. He came at me very quick and very strongly with a punch. I started to do an aikido technique ans stopped half way through and had the guy stuck. The reason I stopped was because, if I had finished doing the technique, I would have broken his elbow backwards! The whole thing would have lasted about 15 seconds. The outcome lies within the person, not the art. I have seen martial artist lose a fight to a street fighter. By the way, what martial art do you study?
You probably won't change your opinion, but before you stand your ground on this one, try and meet Greg Jennings challenge and see what you think after you get up off of the floor! There's nothing to it, but to do it!

emptymind
05-22-2004, 09:43 AM
Aikido is very real, I've had the privilege of being Uke for my Sensei whenever we practiced hard during randori. I can only say that we in our class would commit fully to punching and kicking at Sensei and received his iriminage. My shoulder blades would hit the mat in a flash before everything else landed. I'd lose my wind on impact! I have never been dropped like that before! Since then I have continued to practice and become more accustomed to breaking hard falls. Aikido is real.
Respectfully, student.

Green Machine
05-25-2004, 06:00 AM
It seems this Stuart has hit a raw nerve with a lot of people hear. I would not lower my self to take the bait and come down to his level. Surely aikido as I have been taught is the art of fighting without fighting. I would rather try to de-fuse any situation than act upon it. Looking at the origional post he stated that he watched a class, if I watched a class then I would not be to impressed either, but watching and taking part are to different things, also when in class one is training and therefore no real aggresion is taking place, we are basically training our bodies and mind to do these techniques in an instant without thinking about it. So Aikido if used is an effective martial art so sorry Stuart I think you should use a try before you buy attitude. :D

Domo Arigato Andrew

Troy
07-09-2004, 10:31 PM
I wounder if Stuart ever took up Greg's challenge? I know the type of poeple that Stuart sounds like, and they would NEVER show up for a match alone. They fear challenges. Thats why Stuart never answered Greg. That and the sexual thing.

xuzen
07-10-2004, 03:51 AM
Hey Troy,

The original thread starter by the name of Stuart started this thread three years ago. My guess is he probably will not visit this forum again. My second guess is what he saw in the dojo were some 65 year old grandms doing aikido while waiting for their grandchildren to finish ballet class next door. No wonder he said that aikido weren't impressive as effective martial art.

:D
Boon.

David Kerr
07-10-2004, 03:57 AM
Hey Stuart have a day off, you don't have to be a dick every day of your life.
If you keep threatening to go down to peoples dojo's and sort them out, someone somewhere is sure to bounce a suburi bokken right off your nut........ but I doubt it would do any good.

P.s

I'm a karate man, karate man bleed on the inside.
Woaaah!

Bridge
07-12-2004, 03:46 AM
ok... You guy's can attack me all you want but, you know i'm right. Deep down inside that is you know.

In karate you can punch and kick although I think kick boxing is even better because you really know how to punch ( gloves) and kick a lot (you hear.. KICKboxing). In aikido you just pretend to throw and hold the other guy down on the floor (or women).

You know! A hard kick will stop you in your spin's. spin.....kick... fall.

You SAY you are better than karate or kick boxing but where's your proof, all you do is pretend with each other? I've never even seen an aikido fighter in a real match. Take off your shirt and try to fight. It will never happen right? Just a lot of talking and talking.:(

Excuse me, but I do both karate AND aikido (in a somewhat limited capacity) and even I can see you have no clue.

Both are valid arts, with many good points. Karate is great for atemi, locks throws, pressure points etc., It's very instant and you can use most of it right away, but it's very strength based.

Being one of the girls I find some karate techniques difficult to work due to being smaller and not as strong. And that's despite years of training and going to the gym specifically to develop strength to do the techniques. I also know that my effectiveness will reach a peak and decline past a certain age or with any injuries.

Aikido is definitely not as easy be effective from day one, but those guys keep going from strength to strength as they continue to train, even when they're getting on a bit. I've done my utmost to give them a hard time, but still, they overcome my attack and make it look easy, and that's including the smaller practitioners. So aikido is a good investment for the future but it takes time and patience to develop the physical and mental condition which I respect so much in my fellow students. Aikido is not for individuals with the attention span of a goldfish!

Quite frankly , I think you are misinformed.

Martin Ruedas
07-28-2004, 06:50 AM
Looks like Stuart isn't ready for Aikido. Let's just leave him, I think he's just a "little" kid. You can watch power rangers now Stuart.

Peter Seth
09-02-2004, 07:37 AM
Well Stuart.
You are a little tinker!! Did you generate the 'wind up' responses you wanted, or are you serious?
If you are, please take this as a sincere and honest expression of my aikido experience.
I have over 40 'cumulative' years (not 40 times 1 year) experience in MArts. Studied the usual: Karate, Judo, jujitsu, Aikijitsu, kickboxing, various chinese arts, etc, etc. The past 25+ years primarily Aikido - which I find is eminently adaptable and gives the oportunity to add elements of any other arts if required (usually as a back up). I am currently adapting my Aikido to the so called 'soft' side - 'hard' ? - been there done that! - has limits and can be a little 'immature' as an element of the art. I am constantly discovering the real 'power' of 'Ai Ki' and to be honest it is a little scary, it frightens me that done 'in the flow' how dangerous the potential of taking/accepting someones energy, controlling the flow and returning as necessary is. Aikido done properly can be either very gentle or in a heartbeat, LETHAL. I am getting on a bit - over 50 - and at my time of life I see (or hope I see) life as something which should be enjoyed with as little hassle as possible.
So without going out of my way to avoid conflict, I try to meet it in an Aiki manner. Anyone who is 'in my face' has a problem, its their problem not mine - but I will help them to sort it out if they wish. If they 'insist' on a more physical solution I will also oblige, but try to (using aiki) reconcile them to the folly of their own immaturity. This seems to be the thought process you currently have - aggressive - judgemental (uninformed judgement) - and a little immature, but thats only my opinion using (uninformed judgement)?
Cheers son.

PS: I havn't had a real fight for a few years now - and I am proud of the fact. Must be getting good at the use of Ai, if you understand what I mean. This is the secret of the art and O'senseis real message!

PPS: Almost forgot, 'ATEMI' (vital point strikes) are an integral part of Aikido and can be done with ANY part of the body at ANY time during the flow of energies!

Zato Ichi
09-02-2004, 08:00 AM
Uh, Peter, you do realize that Stuart's last post was August, 10, 2001, at 3:12 PM? Over three years ago?

If he's still here lurking, I'm sure he's having a good laugh that people are still responding to his little inane tirade.

Peter Seth
09-02-2004, 08:24 AM
Hi.
My reply will also cover anyone else with similar opinions of Aikido. Anyway maybe he has grown up a bit since then.
Pete

Bridge
09-02-2004, 09:46 AM
Hi.
My reply will also cover anyone else with similar opinions of Aikido. Anyway maybe he has grown up a bit since then.
Pete

He's probably not reading this anymore. Perhaps he's busy discovering girls, alcohol etc., Tis 3 years ago now.
:)

Nick Simpson
09-02-2004, 10:35 AM
Girls and alcohol beat trolling on forums anyday ;)

George S. Ledyard
09-02-2004, 04:50 PM
I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.

Its very sloopy, and weak. I dont get it? Is this really a martial art or a joke? One punch or kick, and you guys are gone. Sloppy women and men doing it. What a joke.

Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.
Absolutely right, go train at one of these other schools!

Emily Fine
09-02-2004, 09:00 PM
Hold on...doesn't aikido teach you NOT to fight, if you can?
Stu, a principle of aikido is to protect your attacker, to show compassion, and not to be someone who enjoys attacking people. Aikido is mainly defensive. I'm sorry you didn't like what you saw at the dojo you visited, but that might have been because of the sensei. Don't knock it until you've tried it- you said you watched, but you didn't even get on the mat!!!

Points made, your arguments are so redundant, and they make me wonder how old you are. You sort of sound like your eleven or twelve. Please just get a hobby and leave us alone.

Best wishes,

~Emily :ai: :ki: :do:

PeterR
09-02-2004, 09:36 PM
Hold on...doesn't aikido teach you NOT to fight, if you can?
Hi Emily;

Totally forgetting about Stu I must say that for some (myself included) Aikido teaches us how to fight and by doing so transcends the need.

As a martial way teaching you how NOT to fight is a contradiction in terms.

Stu is a clueless child who may or may not have seen a dojo where the idea of Budo was forgotten.

Christopher Bianco
09-03-2004, 09:55 AM
Hello Everyone,

I've been very interested in studying Shinshin Toitsu Aikido, and I plan on visiting a local school this week to observe. And as with anything I'm interested in, I invest countless hours researching the subject. Shinshin Toitsu Aikido seems (from what I've read) to mirror my own personal beliefs and philosophies, so this will be the study I choose to pursue.

However, I stumbled across this forum a few days ago, and began browsing through a few threads. I must say...I'm a bit disheartened.

In a recent thread titled "Aikido is Weak" I read these word:

"I can't believe you guys!! If a person for the first time came to this Aikido web site and viewed this thread, what would they think about Aikido and the Aikidoka?"

I'll tell you what I think. I think I was wrong. I think Aikido is wrong. I think that people are people. I think that no matter what kind of training you get, it won't change you. It won't TEACH you non-agression as so many aikido-affiliated websites claim. If you enter an art that stresses benevolence, you won't become benevolent. You will only learn the martial techniques of a benevolent art.

Benevolence comes from the heart...the soul...it cannot be taught. But it CAN be seen. Observed. And therefore, it can be FOUND.

Aikido talks of non-agression, kindness, understanding, and oneness. I found little of that in the thread mentioned above. But then...there is "guest1234".

Guest1234 reminds me of a story I read regarding Aikido. I'm sure you all know it. It seems famous enough. It's about an aikido student, a train, a foul-tempered drunk, and a kind-hearted old man.

Guest1234 reminds me of that old man. The sentiments, the generosity, and the understanding.

And so the purpose of this thread is to show my appreciation for guest1234, whoever you may be. You alone have strengthened my conviction to study aikido, and I look forward with renewed anticipation to the day I become a student of this marvelous art.

Thank you, guest1234. I hope that my future instrctors share your heart. And I hope that my actions, like yours, will be seen and observed by others. If they are, I've faith that I will eventually learn the true meaning of aikido.

Sincerely,
Christopher Bianco =)

AsimHanif
09-03-2004, 10:14 AM
Go to Furman College and see David Shaner Sensei. He is the Chief Instructor of the Eastern Ki Federation and a very nice person. He is very close Tohei Sensei and is also a Prof of Asian Studies. He is the man.

Tatiana
09-03-2004, 10:56 AM
Stuart... No one pretends to be better than no one... No martial art is better than the next... But I would advise you to keep your big trap shut! Aikidoka tend to stick together, so you're fighting a loosing battle here.... It's just you, agenst more than 1000.....

ok... You guy's can attack me all you want but, you know i'm right. Deep down inside that is you know.

In karate you can punch and kick although I think kick boxing is even better because you really know how to punch ( gloves) and kick a lot (you hear.. KICKboxing). In aikido you just pretend to throw and hold the other guy down on the floor (or women).

You know! A hard kick will stop you in your spin's. spin.....kick... fall.

You SAY you are better than karate or kick boxing but where's your proof, all you do is pretend with each other? I've never even seen an aikido fighter in a real match. Take off your shirt and try to fight. It will never happen right? Just a lot of talking and talking.:(

Lyle Laizure
09-03-2004, 12:04 PM
What a waste of time stuart.

DaveO
09-03-2004, 12:11 PM
Uh.....
I have to point out again what was said earlier; the dude left here 3 years ago. What the heck's the point of flogging a horse dead that long?
The kid came on here to troll; so far as I've seen he was just about the most successful troll in recent memory if you guys keep going at it!
Let the topic die, fer gawd's sake.

CNYMike
09-04-2004, 08:22 AM
:rolleyes: I probably should know better, but ....

I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.


Stuart, over the summer I heard an anecdote implying that Bruce Lee could watch something ONCE and pick up everything he needed to know about it. Most mere mortals, however -- and the odds are very good it includes you -- are not like Bruce Lee.

If you REALLY want to form an opinion about Aikido, there's only one way: Join the class and do it. Not just once but several times. You still don't like it after all that, go ahead and quit. But you ain't gonna get a handle on it just by watching it. (Love to hear what an NHB guy would say about your karate class.)


.... Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.

I am taking karate -- been doing it for 19 years now. And Filipino Kali, form someone who also holds classes in Pentjak Silat Serak, so I'm doing that. And Tai Chi. My Kali instructor has also studied, and teaches, Jun Fan/JKD and Wing Chun; he's also familiar with boxing and Thai Boxing. When I told him I was thinking of resuming training in Aikido, which I'd first done in the late '80s for a couple of years, his exact words were, "Go for it! You'll be a better martial artist." After I'd started, I told my karate sensei, and he smiled and said, "Oh, good for you."

Anything from them about how it was fake? How I'm wasting my time? Nope. Where does that leave you?

CNYMike
09-04-2004, 08:28 AM
..... In aikido you just pretend to throw and hold the other guy down on the floor ....

Nope, no pretending involved. If you'd been on the business end of one of those joint locks, you'd know they can hurt like the dickens (especially nikkyo), and that's why you go with it.

In Serak, there's a move that's very similar to nikkyo -- it just doesn't go to the final position in keiza. So one night, I did it. If it had been "fake," my partner would have looked at me funny and shrugged it off. Know what happened? He tapped out right away and asked, "What did you do to me!?"

Nope, no pretending involved. Try it. You'll see.

David_francis
09-04-2004, 09:00 AM
Uh.....
I have to point out again what was said earlier; the dude left here 3 years ago. What the heck's the point of flogging a horse dead that long?
The kid came on here to troll; so far as I've seen he was just about the most successful troll in recent memory if you guys keep going at it!
Let the topic die, fer gawd's sake.
Hehe i dont think they want to

CNYMike
09-04-2004, 11:14 AM
Uh.....
I have to point out again what was said earlier; the dude left here 3 years ago. What the heck's the point of flogging a horse dead that long?

The point is -- in my case, anway -- I read the date on his post without reading the YEAR; I thought he popped up just last month.

Moral of the story: Never go online before you've had your orange juice. :o

daniel loughlin
09-06-2004, 05:20 AM
if aikido has been a total failure for you have u ever wondered that it could be you thats rubbish and not aikido. you may be a black belt but not a very good 1 by the sounds of things!!

JasonFDeLucia
09-06-2004, 07:53 PM
I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.

Its very sloopy, and weak. I dont get it? Is this really a martial art or a joke? One punch or kick, and you guys are gone. Sloppy women and men doing it. What a joke.

Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.
if you don''t believe in aikido why come to an aiki forum?but more importantly when you witness intermediate anything ,it doesn't look the same as advanced .i think you should go to the texas aikikai(texas karate is good karate)or even the aiki kai that you visited and challenge the head master just to see what he can show you .tell me what happens then.you'll be unpleasantly suprised.

Greg Jennings
09-09-2004, 07:44 AM
That should have been Yoshinkan karate n0t shotokan
Hooker Sensei,

I believe that is "Yoshukai". I have several friends in the dojo here in Montgomery founded by Yuki Koda.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
09-09-2004, 07:51 AM
I wounder if Stuart ever took up Greg's challenge? <SNIP> Thats why Stuart never answered Greg. That and the sexual thing.
Troy,

That was several years ago. With preadolescent kids of my own now, I'm much more careful about how I react and what I say to trolls. I worry that I might have scarred the kid for life.

Discretion is often the best part of maturity.

Train deeply,

aikido_luver
09-09-2004, 08:09 PM
I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.

Its very sloopy, and weak. I dont get it? Is this really a martial art or a joke? One punch or kick, and you guys are gone. Sloppy women and men doing it. What a joke.

Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.

You WATCHED an aikido class. Did you ever join in? I'd like to see you try joining in a class and train with a yudansha. Mayby then you'll change your mind. The only joke here is you. If you dont like Aikido then why come on to Aikiweb?

Tks

Ayla :grr:

PeterR
09-09-2004, 09:03 PM
You WATCHED an aikido class. Did you ever join in? I'd like to see you try joining in a class and train with a yudansha. Mayby then you'll change your mind. The only joke here is you. If you dont like Aikido then why come on to Aikiweb?
I can't beleive you people. Stuart posted 13 times on two threads between the 7th and 10th of August 2001. Then he disappeared. He has my admiration for the most succesful Troll ever and with the level of angst displayed here - I'm starting to think he's right.

George S. Ledyard
09-10-2004, 01:06 AM
I can't beleive you people. Stuart posted 13 times on two threads between the 7th and 10th of August 2001. Then he disappeared. He has my admiration for the most succesful Troll ever and with the level of angst displayed here - I'm starting to think he's right.
Yeah, I admit it. I got suckered into replying before I looked the the date. I'll try to remember in the future.

Disciples
09-14-2004, 12:39 AM
ok... You guy's can attack me all you want but, you know i'm right. Deep down inside that is you know.

In karate you can punch and kick although I think kick boxing is even better because you really know how to punch ( gloves) and kick a lot (you hear.. KICKboxing). In aikido you just pretend to throw and hold the other guy down on the floor (or women).

You know! A hard kick will stop you in your spin's. spin.....kick... fall.

You SAY you are better than karate or kick boxing but where's your proof, all you do is pretend with each other? I've never even seen an aikido fighter in a real match. Take off your shirt and try to fight. It will never happen right? Just a lot of talking and talking.:(


Dude...you sound like the biggest dumb ass in the world right now. How dare you accuse Aikido of being weak. If you are ever in SC, come to Columbia to Stronghold Gym on either Tuesday or Thursday or even a Saturday and see how weak it is. I do agree with you to a degree, some students tend to fake the falls and throws and even the pins. I, myself on the otherhand, was told I either throw to hard, pin to the point of breaking a shoulder, or something like that and I'm just a beginner. How did I learn it you ask? Because I took what I learn when I was going against it and then tried it myself. Better yet, go up to any instructor of any type of Aikido and attack them out of the blue without warning. I garuntee you will be suprised as to how real Aikido is.

xuzen
09-14-2004, 01:11 AM
Another sucker to reply the post...

Hey Chris, little Stuart the throll stopped posting here since 2001. I bet he has lots of things on his mind now to actually reply to you, you know adolescent stuff; homework, teeth braces, acne, girlfriend etc. I bet my last dollar his concern are now these things and not answering to your invitation...So give his thread a rest will ya?

Boon

CNYMike
09-14-2004, 11:20 AM
.... it just keeps going and going and going and going .... :hypno:

(Like I didn't get suckered in, too. :o )

:)

suren
09-14-2004, 11:32 AM
Why don't we move this thread into "Humor" section? That would resolve the conflict :D

aikido_luver
09-14-2004, 05:48 PM
lol, i didnt look at the date either...lol...oh well s*** happens.

ayla

akiy
09-14-2004, 06:43 PM
This thread has gotten pretty pointless. Closing...

-- Jun