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Dennis Hooker
07-11-2006, 11:31 AM
I know this is not about Aikido but I am an Aikido student and I find this fellow very interesting but can;t dig up much more on him. Do any of you have information you can pass along?


http://www.koryubooks.com/library/rsmith1.html

Quote form Robert Smith

"In Japan, Donn lived in a rambling house in the Ichigaya section of Tokyo. Big and well made, it nevertheless shivered its timbers when Wang Shujin, the neijia master, would visit and punch anything anchored. By the time of my six-week stay in 1961, Wang had taken the best that several high-ranking Japanese karate, kenpo, and other martial art experts could offer, and hurt the indestructible Jon Bluming with a no-inch punch that the film actor Bruce Lee would have envied. Bluming tried to get even by taking a free hit at Wang's paunch and only hurt his own wrist. In Wang's taiji classes (he would not teach his forte, xingyi, to the Japanese then, but did later), he had many highly placed Japanese executives and a handful of yakuza (Mafia-style low-lifers). When other warriors of the night stalked him for a short time (Wang himself probably never knew this), one of his yakuza godfathers got wind of it, Donn told me, and the stalkers disappeared into the night mists:.

dps
07-11-2006, 12:35 PM
Do an internet seach on Google for Donn Draeger.

Ron Tisdale
07-11-2006, 12:49 PM
I believe some interesting encounters are on the net between Wang and Chiba Sensei as well...

Best,
Ron

statisticool
07-11-2006, 04:20 PM
Smith, while valuing taijiquan, especially Zheng Manqing, seemed to not think much of aikido. I believe in Masters and Methods he dismisses it is so much daring-do, since he wasn't able to test Ueshiba, which is unfortunate.

Dennis Hooker
07-12-2006, 11:07 AM
OT sorry,

Mike do you have any information on Wang Shujin
http://www.koryubooks.com/library/rsmith1.html

The fellow fascinates me but I can't get a lot of information on him. Just see the basic stuff.

Mike Sigman
07-12-2006, 11:14 AM
Mike do you have any information on Wang Shujin
http://www.koryubooks.com/library/rsmith1.html

The fellow fascinates me but I can't get a lot of information on him. Just see the basic stuff.There's a few *old* filmclips of him on Youtube or somewhere. He was one of the very good Chinese martial artists who made it to Taiwan with Chiang Kai Shek during the Communist Revolution. Specialized in the "internal martial arts" and from what I've seen in his clips, he was extremely powerful (although I've been told that there were less public CMA's on Taiwan who were better; one of them apparently tossed Wang XuJin up onto a table in a friendly encounter).

Wang stressed standing exercises, etc., but from what I've been able to see, I suspect he never really told people how to do them... which is typical for the Chinese.

Ellis is sort of a font of Wang XuJin anecdotes. Maybe he can contribute other thoughts.

Regards,

Mike

Ellis Amdur
07-12-2006, 01:03 PM
There are several articles on Wang on this website: http://www.apittman.com/ Look at the Bagua section,
I studied in a class taught by Wang for several months (it would be pretentious to call myself a student under the circumstances). One half of the class was a set of eight standing exercises - as I recall, one held a pose and then did a minimal rotational movement. His exercises can be found in his book, Bagua Swimming Body Palm on http://www.gaostylebagua.com/ However, the website indicates that the book is "temporarily discontinued in print." After the first half of the class, he taught his version of Chen Pan Ling's t'ai chi. One rainy day, he taught drilling of xingyi, under the eaves of the temple we were practicing.
When I trained, he was very ill, could hardly bend his knees, it was VERY expensive, and I couldn't see the value of what he was teaching. So I discontinued training after a couple of months. Even as an old man, he had enormous power - but he was offering something radically different from what I was interested in then.

Best

statisticool
07-12-2006, 04:42 PM
Smith, while valuing taijiquan, especially Zheng Manqing, seemed to not think much of aikido. I believe in Masters and Methods he dismisses it is so much daring-do, since he wasn't able to test Ueshiba, which is unfortunate.

Realized I said Masters and Methods, but it wasn't. It is from Smith's more recent Martial Musings.

Mike Sigman
07-14-2006, 08:54 AM
There are several articles on Wang on this website: http://www.apittman.com/ Look at the Bagua section,
I studied in a class taught by Wang for several months (it would be pretentious to call myself a student under the circumstances). Holy Smoke, Ellis! You're supposed to state with a straight face that you were an "indoor disciple of Wang" and then tell us how to do our stuff!!!! What a breach of tradition! ;) Thanks for the anecdote, as usual.

Mike

Mike Sigman
07-14-2006, 09:02 AM
Smith, while valuing taijiquan, especially Zheng Manqing, seemed to not think much of aikido. I believe in Masters and Methods he dismisses it is so much daring-do, since he wasn't able to test Ueshiba, which is unfortunate.Zheng Manqing (often spelled "Ch'eng Man Ching" in the Wade-Giles method) was a colorful character. He certainly had some qi skills, but I have no real idea of the extent of them... and his followers tend to muddy the waters by worshipping him as godlike.

There are some questions about Cheng's actual claims for his own training, but that to the side, Cheng was known on Taiwan as the painting teacher for Madame Chiang Kai Shek. Apparently a lot of the really well-known martial artists on Taiwan were forbidden to challenge Cheng because of that relationship to Madame Chiang.

When Chen was younger, he challenged some big names in Chinese martial arts and apparently was beaten badly a number of times. Smith refers briefly to an encounter Cheng had with the very famous Tu Xing Wu and says only that Cheng mentioned that he "could not escape Tu's foot", or something along those lines. In reality, Tu apparently put Cheng in the hospital for 3 months.

My perspective would be that Cheng had some skills, but not the top level a lot of people claim for him.... so any comments he may have made about being in a position to judge Ueshiba's skills should be viewed askance.

FWIW

Mike

statisticool
07-14-2006, 03:51 PM
This is off topic, so feel free to PM or email.


... and his followers tend to muddy the waters by worshipping him as godlike.


Who specifically views ZMQ as "godlike"?


Apparently a lot of the really well-known martial artists on Taiwan were forbidden to challenge Cheng because of that relationship to Madame Chiang.


Source?


Smith refers briefly to an encounter Cheng had with the very famous Tu Xing Wu and says only that Cheng mentioned that he "could not escape Tu's foot", or something along those lines. In reality, Tu apparently put Cheng in the hospital for 3 months.


Source?

Mike Sigman
07-14-2006, 03:57 PM
Source?Various Taiwanese Chinese martial artists. These are fairly well-known stories. One friend of mine who reads Chinese even saw an old clipping someone had saved about one of Cheng's challenges where he was beaten in one of his admittedly brave challenges. Cheng was better known among the Chinese as a painter than as a fighter.

statisticool
09-10-2006, 05:01 PM
"Various Taiwanese Chinese martial artists. These are fairly well-known stories."

is not a source as requested. It is a vague offering with no redeeming scholarship.


Justin

Mike Sigman
09-10-2006, 05:24 PM
"Various Taiwanese Chinese martial artists. These are fairly well-known stories."

is not a source as requested. It is a vague offering with no redeeming scholarship.I think one of the big differences between us, Justin, is that I don't live in some dream-world where everyone who writes a book and anecdotes is somehow a "source". In my youth I thought that Robert W. Smith's pompous anecdotes and myriad quotations were cool, but as I became more experienced, I found out that many things he published were simply wrong. I hear from pretty good sources that some of his ex-students found out the same things the hard way when, following the paths that Robert trod, they realized he simply didn't know what he wrote about.

Maybe you feel more comfortable with "sources" and the word "scholarship", but I prefer to look at who said what and what their actual credentials and abilities are.

You take the "writings" and "written anecdotes" of some people as "credible sources".... I don't. We all have to decide what is true and what is not true. I go by what works. You appear to go by "what sounds in accord with your personal beliefs and feelings". Quick way to sort it out... come to Durango, Colorado. Or maybe you could just send your keyboard in the style of American CMC that you personally represent?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

statisticool
09-10-2006, 06:31 PM
When one reads claims like


Apparently a lot of the really well-known martial artists on Taiwan were forbidden to challenge Cheng ..


and


In reality, Tu apparently put Cheng in the hospital for 3 months.


it is only logical to ask the claimant for sources so readers can be assured the person isn't just spreading gossip.


Justin

Mike Sigman
09-10-2006, 06:45 PM
When one reads claims like
and
it is only logical to ask the claimant for sources so readers can be assured the person isn't just spreading gossip.And both of those claims I got from unrelated native Taiwanese sources, who probably wouldn't want me to use their names. Enough so that I'm fairly sure of what I'm saying. Now Robert Smith has been caught out by a number of people by making deliberate or ..perhaps.. unintentional errors in his "books", i.e., "sources". The question I'm asking you is what your "scholarship" demands for a book "source" have to do with the truth, in reality? Even "written sources" have as much to question as spoken sources, so either you're not capable of reasoning or you're caught up in some dreamworld.

I say, once again, that you are some troubled Cheng Man Chinger cult addict who is simply out to bizarrely chase *one* person (and if you think you're somehow not as obvious as daylight to just about everyone on the forum, you need a reality check). So your call for "sources" does nothing but allow you to keep wasting time, unless you can come to some point or perhaps brave yourself to speak honestly about what is on your mind.

Notice that I don't go into some of your "sources" who claimed "in writing" what Cheng's credentials were. I actually have been privy to a lot more blunt conversations about Cheng's past than I'm talking about and from very reputable sources. I say it again... Cheng made no really spectacular BS claims about himself. His purported "students" are the ones making the bogus claims and hence ruining Cheng's name.

Mike Sigman

roninroshi
09-10-2006, 07:32 PM
Interesting discourse...My Sempi Meik S...told me a few thing's about Wang and those time's...CMC?
Wang+++

roninroshi
09-10-2006, 07:48 PM
You can find Wang's book here...
http://www.plumpub.com/index.html

statisticool
09-10-2006, 09:01 PM
So with the convenient (and again, unverifiable) excuse


And both of those claims I got from unrelated native Taiwanese sources, who probably wouldn't want me to use their names.


we again see avoidance to provide an actual source for claims.


Justin

Mike Sigman
09-10-2006, 09:24 PM
So with the convenient (and again, unverifiable) excuse

we again see avoidance to provide an actual source for claims."This was already discussed"


So tell us, Justin... where in Virginia do you live and who do you train with for Taiji?

Mike Sigman

statisticool
09-11-2006, 03:49 AM
Let's keep this thread focused, and please provide actual verifiable sources for the claims of:


Apparently a lot of the really well-known martial artists on Taiwan were forbidden to challenge Cheng ..


and


In reality, Tu apparently put Cheng in the hospital for 3 months.


Simply saying


And both of those claims I got from unrelated native Taiwanese sources, who probably wouldn't want me to use their names.


and not allowing one to verify the claims, is basically admitting that one is spreading gossip, not facts.


Justin

Mike Sigman
09-11-2006, 06:52 AM
Let's keep this thread focused, You, who have disrupted so many threads on this forum, are publicly saying that? Let's be kind and assume you're making some sort of joke.and not allowing one to verify the claims, is basically admitting that one is spreading gossip, not facts.You can verify it all you want, Justine. Just like I did. Go check it out. Just like I checked out some of Robert Smith's claims and found out they were bogus, even though he had "written them in a book with an ISBN number". I didn't start writing mentally-unbalanced public challenges to Smith.... I just went and looked. You haven't even bothered to read the description in Smith's book about Cheng fighting Tu, have you?

Mike Sigman

akiy
09-11-2006, 08:56 AM
This thread, too, has moved away from the original topic into personal discussions. Thread closed.

-- Jun