What is the One Point? [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

ian

07-11-2006, 04:21 AM

It is kind of pseudo religious slang. In Reality it doesn't exist at all.

Hey - metaphysical ;)

IMO saying 'concentrate on the one-point' to someone who doesn't know what the 'one-point' is, is.... pointless!

I think being aware of your centre of gravity (about 1 1/2 inches below your belly-button) can help in effciency of body movement (especially rotation around this centre). With unbendable arm I always think it is more important to focus on trying to reach with your open fingers to the far wall. I believe this helps you to use your triceps without interference from your antagonistic muscles (biceps). This isn't to say I don't believe in chi etc, just that I think esoteric language is of no use if it can't be felt or translated into something with external reality.

Maybe the 'focus on one-point' which you are being instructed to do is another way of saying 'relax and don't use too much muscle in the arm' - the command to "relax" being another of my pet hates!

P.S. yes, in 'eso-speak' ki can be stored in the one-point or 'hara'. Certain exercises can help to develop ki flow (with relaxation being an important aspect of ki flow). Ueshiba probably believed something similar to this, although it can be more complex (i.e. ki is the internal energy, but this then has to be converted to power (I think jin in Chinese? - not sure in Japanese)). Also ki development requires specific exercises that you don't really see practised in aikido (though some may argue that aikido is a ki exercise in itself?).

graham

07-11-2006, 05:09 AM

Thanks, guys. Fascinating stuff.

Mark Freeman

07-11-2006, 05:57 AM

Graham,

IMHO, One point is just a convenient english term for the concept of hara ( Japanese) or tandien ( Chinese), 'centre', might be just as useful. It is not a 'point' but an 'area' located just below the navel, which corresponds roughly with the body's centre of mass/gravity. There are many ways to practice moving from your one point. The goal is co-ordination of mind and body, essential for good aikido, but also invaluable in daily life.

It is more than the point of balance. You could think of it as where the mind, body and spirit all 'come together', when in this state, the person is just more effective than when they are not. This is not an 'idea' for me, it is a state of knowing through doing.

Whether ki is 'stored' in this place or not could be discussed until the cows come home. What does make sense is to practice your exercises and gain your own experience of what it means for you. In time you will know the state exactly and know when you have it and when you don't.

regards,

Mark

Mark Freeman

07-11-2006, 06:02 AM

It is kind of pseudo religious slang. In Reality it doesn't exist at all.

Pseudo religious slang - how do you come to that conclusion?

In Reality it doesn't exist at all - does the upper case 'R' make reality more real?

Do ideas exist in reality or do they not exist at all?

Who is the judge of what is really real and what is not?

Just a few thoughts that came to mind on reading the above pithy dismissal of a (to me) useful concept. ;)

regards

Mark

dps

07-11-2006, 06:26 AM

And how does concentrating on it help me do things like unbendable arm? I assume that I'm subconsciously rearranging my weight/balance, or using other muscles?
I was taught 'unbendable arm' by imagining my stomach full of water and imagining that my arm was a water pipe and my fingers were smaller pipes. Then I would imagine water flowing upward, through my arm, out my fingers and the water spraying at some some point in the distance. I have heard this visualization used with paint in the stomach and you were spraying a rainbow with your fingers.
I think this is a way to trick your mind into letting your body to setup a physical connection via bones, muscles, ligaments between your hand and your one point. By maintaining this connection you can use 'unbendable arm' while rolling forward and backward, break falling, and waza. You can also establish this connection with your legs or any other part of your body.
As far as the metaphysical part, my stomach is not full of water or paint. :)

billybob

07-11-2006, 03:21 PM

A google image search on "Da Vinci's Vitruvian man" will bring up a picture that everybody should know - the man in the circle.

I was taught 'move from center' at age 13, and I immediately thought of Da Vinci's drawing. Sempai said if you stuck a pin through that point in your belly you would spin in a perfect circle.

If 'ki' and 'center' bother you - forget them. Get to the zoo and watch the monkeys - especially Siamangs. They move with powerful arms. My wife and I watched them 'arm walk' long distances, high in the air, on ropes --- they moved from the hips, or belly, using their whole bodies - in perfect rhythm with the bouncing of the rope. As they shifted their weight the rope bounced and the mated pair just used their arms to hold on - the whole motion was almost a resonant dance.

What the heck does this have to do with aikido?

Don't know, I'm not a monkey

dave

Janet Rosen

07-11-2006, 03:56 PM

Get to the zoo and watch the monkeys - especially Siamangs.
I love watching (and listening to!) them but never considered in those terms. You are absolutely right; for all that they are using upper limbs to bear weight, they ARE totally moving from and balanced in their centers. Makes one realize how very silly it is of us leg-walking humans to put so much of our focus in our chests/shoulders!

aikigirl10

07-11-2006, 05:45 PM

It is kind of pseudo religious slang. In Reality it doesn't exist at all.

I think it all depends on how you look at it. If you don't believe in ki then i would say that you don't believe in the "one point".

Personally i think ki is just a manifestation of all the energy that is already within you. I don't really see it as a religion or as magic.

You see the difference Szczepan , is that you stated your opinion as fact, when in "Reality" your opinion is just opinion. How do you know that the one point doesn't exist? Why don't you provide all of us with proof of this since you seem to be so sure of your claims?

Upyu

07-11-2006, 05:58 PM

One point -

Not that I do aikido, but from what Ive experienced it overlaps with what we do here in Aunkai.
That being said, what's referred to the "one" point is only one part of an overall structure that needs to be connected to several other parts of the body.

If you were to divide the body into three general parts,
Top (Head to sternum)
Middle (Sternum to tanden/one point)
Bottom(Tanden/onepoint to Feet)

Then the one point is only another point which you need to feel and develop a connection to the other points.
Specifcially along the spine, you need to connect the base of the neck (about 5th vertabrae down) to the sacrum point, which surprise surprise coincides with the inner muscles that comprise the "tanden" about an inch and a half below the navel. Do enough connection exercises like spear work, Sumo stamping, and you'll actually be able to "move" some kind of inner muscle around the tanden area.

One point is important, but not all important if you ask me.
More important are the base of neck and the coinciding "cross" point that lies in the middle of the chest. Most people don't have this area stabilized, which almost completely nullifies any benefit to moving from your "one point".

PS
I think Szczepan is half right half wrong.
If you think the tanden is some quasi mystical thing that you use to improve your movement by visualization exercises, then he's right, it is garbage.
However if you understand exactly the roll it plays in connecting the body efficiently, well that's a different story. Plus, yes you can "store" power there, but it's nothing mystical. It's a physical action grounded in the laws of physics and reality.

tedehara

07-11-2006, 06:26 PM

Is it simply the point of balance?

And how does concentrating on it help me do things like unbendable arm? I assume that I'm subconsicously rearranging my weight/balance, or using other muscles?

Would O Sensei have considered it the place where Ki is stored, or something like that?The concept of one point was devised by Koichi Tohei to serve as a basis of his style of aikido, Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido aka Ki Aikido. While it appears similar to the concepts of hara or dan tien, it is not. The definitions and concepts of hara and dan tien depends on who you are reading. Also K. Tohei's use of the one point changed over the years as his understanding changed. Focusing your attention at your one point if done correctly, should help you achieve a relaxed state of mind and body coordination according to K. Tohei.

While it is usually taught as being equivalent to one's center of gravity, it is not. A person's center of gravity changes as a person's shape changes. Therefore you have a different center of gravity when walking, sitting or lying down.

The founder would be more familiar with the concepts of hara or dan tien. One of the popular ideas about ki is that it is not stored, but flows through the body. Any blockage of ki would be the cause of sickness, so the idea of storing ki is contrary to popular belief.

Upyu

07-11-2006, 08:24 PM

Again, I think the answer is somewhere in between.

There has to be a mild tension exhibited in the body, where the connections are "flowing" together, but at the same time you can "increase" the pressure in certain areas.
Which means you can "store" and keep it "flowing" at the same time ;)

Blockage means you're keeping something "tense" by clenching the muscles or you're simply disconnected from the rest of the points. If the muscles around a joint are tense, you can't connect them to the rest of the body, cuz the tension being derived is an "individual" tension being generated by local muscles.
Which is why most arts emphasize "opening" the joints to let "ki" flow through them.

About the center of gravity, its not that important, what's more important is the overall connectivity between certain key points if you ask me.

07-11-2006, 09:39 PM

About the cross or the back chest area Rob mentioned and the idea of a one point.
If you can imagine shoving a drive shraft or any pole into a hole in the floor then slide a peg through it horizontally. Next grab the peg as it sticks out left to right with both your hands.
Now
Imagine the hole you stuck the pole into is attached to an engine with 1000 ft. lb. of torque and I turn it on.
Now when you get out of hospital with your broken arms healed you can understand how powerful it can be if
1. the pole is your spine
2. the peg is tension held across the back and chest
3. and the engine is the ground through your legs through your hips that turn the spine or pole at the waist. Everything attached to it is launched without you dedicating much to the effort in a forward direction. It makes powerful kicks, punches, throws, and shoves without you giving much to lose or have someone take your balance. You are wholely dedicated without being dedicated.
The frame is strengthened through connections throughout the body which can be strengthened further still through breathing and pressures there. As well you are using the ground for power to launch. Of course it is the way you are connected and can create the power that moves through the whole body foot to hand

The above example can be quite effective in ground grappling for reversals when you are on your back with someone on you giving you weight and you hold tension in the cross and you turn using the ground from your feet through the hips and you turn the spine like a drive shaft .....which......... turns the peg (your scapula area). Whats attached to the peg? Your shoulders and arms.
I have seen guys lifted off the floor and thrown. The key is to not try to throw them but to maintain connection and just turn in yourself.
Breathing and certain other things add to this.

My point is that center of gravity and one point and any manner of other things I have been "told" in these arts goes right out the window, yet I remain relaxed and over they go.
The other idea of a one point being the distance from the knee to the ground out in a triangular center point is just rote jujutsu balance work. No big deal.

Cheers
Dan

NagaBaba

07-11-2006, 09:53 PM

I think it all depends on how you look at it. If you don't believe in ki then i would say that you don't believe in the "one point".

Personally i think ki is just a manifestation of all the energy that is already within you. I don't really see it as a religion or as magic.

You see the difference Szczepan , is that you stated your opinion as fact, when in "Reality" your opinion is just opinion. How do you know that the one point doesn't exist? Why don't you provide all of us with proof of this since you seem to be so sure of your claims?
You got all wrong. It is not 'one point' that is responsible for unification with Universe but a spirit of Mgumba Gungdha that possess one’s body after particular ceremony of initiation.
You will say now that the spirit of Mgumba Gungdha doesn’t exist so it’s all false. Why don't you provide all of us with proof of this since you seem to be so sure of your claims?

As you see my small example above your argumentation can be apply to any imaginable stupidity, because is against logic. It is to ppl who believe in 'one point' to provide prove of existence, not to me.

Even creator of this concept, K.Tohei himself doesn’t know exactly what is it; he changed many times its meaning, probably depending of actual direction of a wind, color of the smoke or other esoteric reasons. This only prove how big nonsense it is.

On the tatami there is only one reality: or you can throw attacker or you can’t. You may have tons of more or less mysterious concepts that nobody really understands, but it will change nothing at all. Aikido practice is not about developing concepts.

Also, if you store something, and the same time let it and keep it "flowing" by relaxing muscles, better try it close to toilet LOL. ;)

07-11-2006, 10:06 PM

Even creator of this concept, K.Tohei himself doesn't know exactly what is it; he changed many times its meaning, probably depending of actual direction of a wind, color of the smoke or other esoteric reasons. This only prove how big nonsense it is.

On the tatami there is only one reality: or you can throw attacker or you can't. You may have tons of more or less mysterious concepts that nobody really understands, but it will change nothing at all. Aikido practice is not about developing concepts.

Also, if you store something, and the same time let it and keep it "flowing" by relaxing muscles, better try it close to toilet LOL. ;)

I'm not much for mumbo jumbo myself. And the aiki arts are full it.

I teach by very....practical, explicable methods with a purpose and goal to knock people out, choke them, break them, throw them and control them to win. How?
Using concepts and ideas like storing and releasing, pressures in breathing, holding tension, frame, connection in fascia/tendon work throughout the body and zero balance work.

That said, Tohei was not full of it, there is one reality on the mat and the fact that Aikido is NOT about developing concepts may be its biggest weakness. :rolleyes:

Dan

Upyu

07-11-2006, 10:48 PM

Also, if you store something, and the same time let it and keep it "flowing" by relaxing muscles, better try it close to toilet LOL. ;)

Sure Szczepan :D
Course, next time you come to Tokyo, mebbe we can have a friendly rolling session and see who really needs to use the toilet after the training session ;)

Upyu

07-11-2006, 10:50 PM

07-11-2006, 11:29 PM

Thanks bud

What I mean is that guys who like to teach have all sorts of plans and caring for students and outings and get togethers and manuals to track progress and ranks and such. They also have a tradition and vision for the future.
I am all self-absorbed and weird and I know it. Way into learning, creating, and experimenting. But with that I have had plenty of guys who wouldn't go anywhere else, including some new ones who trained with top level Aikido and CMA masters Who say they have never felt anything like what I do. So...if you were to ask even these people - I can show and teach what I do, clearly. So I'm not saying I can't. I just don't want a bunch of people to bring through the steps and worst of all develop some system to rank them in. And I sure ain't gonna do it on the net

You wait...
I can hear you now- fifteen years out- with so many half assed martial moroons and hangers-on having come and gone......whining about this or that and never doing the real work. It seems we all have to go through dozens to get a single good one. I have an eimuroku with over two hundred names in it!! I have had maybe a dozen good students.

So judging teachers in a larger scope or all encompassing scale.... (and I have some excellent examples)......I stink.
Cheers
Dan

ksy

07-12-2006, 12:57 AM

I'm not much for mumbo jumbo myself. And the aiki arts are full it...That said, Tohei was not full of it, there is one reality on the mat and the fact that Aikido is NOT about developing concepts may be its biggest weakness. :rolleyes: Dan

I thought that o-sensei said that aikido is never "finished", that you never finish learning. if that's the case, the only limit (whther its abt developing concepts or not), and therefore the only weakness, lies within ourselves.

ksy

p/s- i like the mumbo jumbo stuff, so dont knock it. :crazy:

Graham Farquhar

07-12-2006, 02:55 AM

Apologies for going back a few posts but I was in the land of nod when there were some interesting discussions on this topic. I am interested in what Ted said about K Tohei Sensei's change in his interpretation of one point over the years along with his understanding. I would be interested in how this developed.

If this is off topic apologies to all. But I ask for those in the forum who are interested in these concepts and who find them useful in their practice.

Best

aikigirl10

07-12-2006, 06:52 AM

Why don't you provide all of us with proof of this since you seem to be so sure of your claims?

lol Szczepan, i don't think you really grasped what i was saying in that post. I stated my opinion, which means, NO, i am NOT sure of my claims. It is my opinion. (hince the word "personally")

However, you, stated your opinion as fact, which is why i asked you to provide proof.

gdandscompserv

07-12-2006, 07:08 AM

to win.
Ah...now i understand why you don't care for Aikido.

Mark Freeman

07-12-2006, 07:47 AM

lol Szczepan, i don't think you really grasped what i was saying in that post. I stated my opinion, which means, NO, i am NOT sure of my claims. It is my opinion. (hince the word "personally")

However, you, stated your opinion as fact, which is why i asked you to provide proof.

Don't hold your breath Paige ;) my questions to the same poster went completely unanswered :(

regards,

Mark

Lyle Bogin

07-12-2006, 09:40 AM

It's the point we're all trying to make that we can't possibly articulate ;).

gdandscompserv

07-12-2006, 09:43 AM

It's the point we're all trying to make that we can't possibly articulate ;).
Good point,
Thread killer! :p
:D

tedehara

07-12-2006, 09:49 AM

You got all wrong. It is not 'one point' that is responsible for unification with Universe but a spirit of Mgumba Gungdha that possess one's body after particular ceremony of initiation.
You will say now that the spirit of Mgumba Gungdha doesn't exist so it's all false. Why don't you provide all of us with proof of this since you seem to be so sure of your claims?

As you see my small example above your argumentation can be apply to any imaginable stupidity, because is against logic. It is to ppl who believe in 'one point' to provide prove of existence, not to me.

Even creator of this concept, K.Tohei himself doesn't know exactly what is it; he changed many times its meaning, probably depending of actual direction of a wind, color of the smoke or other esoteric reasons. This only prove how big nonsense it is.

On the tatami there is only one reality: or you can throw attacker or you can't. You may have tons of more or less mysterious concepts that nobody really understands, but it will change nothing at all. Aikido practice is not about developing concepts.

Also, if you store something, and the same time let it and keep it "flowing" by relaxing muscles, better try it close to toilet LOL. ;)

:D Big Grin

jonreading

07-12-2006, 11:42 AM

Dan Linden's book "On Mastering Aikido" is a good read to de-mystify some eastern concepts that cause us westerners confusion. I think he actually addresses the one point...

To me, the one point is an imaginary point created by our brain to balance our body. I find it between the hips and approximately 3-12 inches in front or behind our body, depending upon weight distribution and posture.

Essentially, humans stand on 2 feet; balancing on 2 feet is difficult and unstable. In geometry, 2 points can create a line (segment), but cannot create a shape. Three points are required to make the simplest geometric shape, a triangle. Our brain uses complex calculations to establish an imaginary third point to create a triangle of balance. In my opinioin, this imaginary point is the "one point" so often referred. Nothing too exciting.

But a triangle is still not very stable, so our brains continue to create imaginary points of reference to balance our body. 2 more points (5 total) give us a very stable geometric shape - the pyramid. These two new points are commonly referred to as "sankaku" or the third leg of a two-legged human; we have one in front of us and one behind.

The catch is these points are imaginary, which explains why we lose our balance when a false point is pressured.

MaryKaye

07-12-2006, 12:13 PM

In unbendable arm specifically, one thing that thinking about your one point (or hara, or whatever) does is to discourage you from thinking about, and tensing, your arm or shoulder. I find that thinking about the soles of my feet works well here, too. Anything but thinking about my shoulder!

I have trained with people who teach "use your hips/move from hara" and (more extensively) with people who say "keep one point." I think there is a practical difference but I'm a long way from being able to say what it is. The teachings involving "keep one point" seem easier to apply when I am not moving--I don't know how to "move from hara" when not moving, and it's not just a semantic problem. But I can't get more specific than that yet.

At the Ki Society National Conference, someone asked Shinichi Tohei sensei where your one point is when you have bent over backwards from seiza until you are lying on the mat. He said something to the effect of, "If you find this question puzzling and distracting, try to think of something else, like being relaxed or keeping weight underside." (Not an exact quote, but I think that was the gist of it.) I liked this answer a lot.

Mary Kaye

dps

07-12-2006, 12:15 PM

"The truth is, you've probably "found" one-point many times before in your life. It's just that nobody called it "one-point" at the time. For whatever reason, you were doing something that you felt particularly happy and comfortable doing. You were calm, relaxed, and positive. You were keeping one-point.
You see, one-point is not an invention of Aikido. It was a discovery made by Aikido practitioners. Now, Aikido (and it's related exercises) may very well be the best way to discover one-point and reinforce it's feeling. But one-point is not owned by Aikido. It is just a natural part of being a human being."

So now we'll give away the secret, and tell you just where one-point is located: It's about two inches below your navel, within your lower abdomen. (Wasn't nearly as mysterious as you had hoped, was it?) This is your body's center of balance. The most powerful motions of the body originate here. And the calmest minds are concentrated here"You will find that when you keep one-point, you are harder to move. That's the physical result. But you may also notice that you feel different when you keep one-point. You feel more comfortable and calm, although fully aware. You may not notice it, but your face will look more relaxed and serene. You are finding a more dependable state.

That's a fascinating thing about one-point. By concentrating the mind there, you become more stable both physically and mentally. And when someone tests you - as when you just had your friend press on your collar bone - it tells something about you mentally by the way you react physically. "

From; http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/Main/main.html

NagaBaba

07-12-2006, 02:31 PM

Sorry Mark, I had to miss your post by mistake, don't take it personally.

Pseudo religious slang - how do you come to that conclusion?

Ppl who belive in this thing repeat 'one point mantra' all time, instead of doing real physical actions, exactly as in most of religions. Of course nobody can see any results of that, but those believers seems to ignor this simple fact. Again, typical for religious folks.

In Reality it doesn't exist at all - does the upper case 'R' make reality more real?
Yes.

Do ideas exist in reality or do they not exist at all?
Lets not enter into philosophical argumentation. This way leads to nowhere land.

Who is the judge of what is really real and what is not?
If I hit you well enough to make you KO you can safely say it was really real.

Just a few thoughts that came to mind on reading the above pithy dismissal of a (to me) useful concept. ;)
Who is the judge of what is really pithy and what is not?

Robert Rumpf

07-12-2006, 03:22 PM

It is kind of pseudo religious slang. In Reality it doesn't exist at all.

Yeah... I agree with Szczepan.

So, when people talk about "One Point" and make statements like "keep One Point" and talk about "move from One Point," its just a coincidence that "hara" and "One Point" corresponds fairly well to the body's center of mass (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/centerofmass.shtml).

The fact that it is pseudo-religious nonsense can clearly be seen on this page: One Point (http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/Basics/one.html)

In addition, I agree with Szczepan that the idea that being conscious of your center of mass while learning to move can help you move effectively, is complete nonsense and is psuedo-religious slang..

Likewise, imagining or perceiving a fixed point, an axis of rotation of a technique, or a center of mass for a situation or an opponent is also completely psuedo-religious and these concepts don't exist at all in reality.

Thanks for clearing that up,
Rob

billybob

07-12-2006, 04:59 PM

Robert Rumpf - Likewise, imagining or perceiving a fixed point, an axis of rotation of a technique, or a center of mass for a situation or an opponent is also completely psuedo-religious and these concepts don't exist at all in reality.

Tautology.

Of course 'concepts' don't exist in reality! The word roots mean "with head"

The moment I speak I am using symbols. I have left reality behind. Read 'The Structure of Scientific Revolutions' by Thomas Kuhn. Without a paradigm there can be no scientific investigation. In lay terms - without a frame of reference we can learn nothing 'conceptual'.

So, don't throw out the baby with the bath water and argue that concepts aren't real. If they are useful to some people, then they are valid - whether you buy it or not. They honestly don't give a damn.

David

Mary Eastland

07-12-2006, 05:47 PM

Yeah... I agree with Szczepan.

So, when people talk about "One Point" and make statements like "keep One Point" and talk about "move from One Point," its just a coincidence that "hara" and "One Point" corresponds fairly well to the body's center of mass (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/centerofmass.shtml).

The fact that it is pseudo-religious nonsense can clearly be seen on this page: One Point (http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/Basics/one.html)

In addition, I agree with Szczepan that the idea that being conscious of your center of mass while learning to move can help you move effectively, is complete nonsense and is psuedo-religious slang..

Likewise, imagining or perceiving a fixed point, an axis of rotation of a technique, or a center of mass for a situation or an opponent is also completely psuedo-religious and these concepts don't exist at all in reality.

Thanks for clearing that up,
Rob

Clearing what up :( ....just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it does not exist.

I am not posting this to argue with you.....I want people to know that you can train to be centered. Being one pointed is having correct feeling and that co-ordination of mind and body is a great way to experience life.

It has nothing to do with religion.

I don't understand why people train and talk about real fighting but I don't ridicule it ...try opening your mind just a little...you might be pleasantly surprised. :)

Mary

Mike Sigman

07-12-2006, 06:01 PM

dps

07-12-2006, 08:25 PM

Yeah... I agree with Szczepan.
So, when people talk about "One Point" and make statements like "keep One Point" and talk about "move from One Point," its just a coincidence that "hara" and "One Point" corresponds fairly well to the body's center of mass (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/centerofmass.shtml). Rob It's just another way to explain the body'scenter of mass.
The fact that it is pseudo-religious nonsense can clearly be seen on this page: One Point (http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/Basics/one.html) Rob
Hey, that was my post, get your own. :)
In addition, I agree with Szczepan that the idea that being conscious of your center of mass while learning to move can help you move effectively, is complete nonsense and is psuedo-religious slang..Rob
Getting punched in the face will definitely raise your center of mass, try it.
Getting kicked in the groin will definitely lower you center of mass, try it.
Likewise, imagining or perceiving a fixed point, an axis of rotation of a technique, or a center of mass for a situation or an opponent is also completely psuedo-religious and these concepts don't exist at all in reality.

No, science, you know like physics, mechanical engineering, biology.
Thanks for clearing that up,Rob
No problem :D

aikigirl10

07-12-2006, 08:43 PM

just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it does not exist.

can we like bold, italicize and turn on the CAPS LOCK for that ^^^^^^^^^^

NagaBaba

07-12-2006, 09:44 PM

I'm not much for mumbo jumbo myself. And the aiki arts are full it.

I teach by very....practical, explicable methods with a purpose and goal to knock people out, choke them, break them, throw them and control them to win. How?
Using concepts and ideas like storing and releasing, pressures in breathing, holding tension, frame, connection in fascia/tendon work throughout the body and zero balance work.

That said, Tohei was not full of it, there is one reality on the mat and the fact that Aikido is NOT about developing concepts may be its biggest weakness. :rolleyes:

Dan
Dan,
First of all you are not practicing aikido. So I have very mixed feeling about your 'stuff'.
Soccer masters are good in soccer. Tennis masters are good in tennis. And you Dan, you are good in what?
Credibility of your opinions about aikido depends of your training level in aikido. Not in MMA, not in judo, not in some other more or less esoteric arts. Aikido. We are talking here about aikido.

Second point is that 99.9999999% of world population aikido students need 20 - 30 years of hard physical training. Not once a month or once a week -- every day training. Not concepts, but simple body conditioning with aikido techniques. Without such base, any abstract idea will be not only misunderstood, but will help very much to regress on the Way.

NagaBaba

07-12-2006, 09:51 PM

just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it does not exist.
Yes, this is good point. In any religion you must believe in something. That's why I'm convinced that you guys you are doing psedo religious One Point Church.

MA are not about believing. Aikido is not about believing.

ChrisMoses

07-12-2006, 10:17 PM

Yes, this is good point. In any religion you must believe in something. That's why I'm convinced that you guys you are doing psedo religious One Point Church.

MA are not about believing. Aikido is not about believing.

Except that he asks you to believe that in 30 years it will work, no really, please keep paying your dues, only a few decades left and you'll be able to throw a blue blelt from Savage Joe's Jujutsu Adademy.

Upyu

07-12-2006, 10:17 PM

Dan,
First of all you are not practicing aikido. So I have very mixed feeling about your 'stuff'.
Soccer masters are good in soccer. Tennis masters are good in tennis. And you Dan, you are good in what?
Credibility of your opinions about aikido depends of your training level in aikido. Not in MMA, not in judo, not in some other more or less esoteric arts. Aikido. We are talking here about aikido.

Second point is that 99.9999999% of world population aikido students need 20 - 30 years of hard physical training. Not once a month or once a week -- every day training. Not concepts, but simple body conditioning with aikido techniques. Without such base, any abstract idea will be not only misunderstood, but will help very much to regress on the Way.

You know it's funny Baba, I got no attatchment to Dan, I've never met him in real life. Nor have I met Mike. Yet the conversations I've had with them hit too close to home from what I've experienced for it to be "coincidence". Which means in my mind there's only so many efficient ways to move the human body ;)
Plus, they're not exactly intuitive at first.

Dan just happens to apply it to MMA and everyday labor work.
Mike likes to apply it to movement in everyday life.

I think you're just jealous that there's someone that might walk the walk better than how you like to talk the talk :D

ksy

07-12-2006, 10:39 PM

Yes, this is good point. In any religion you must believe in something. That's why I'm convinced that you guys you are doing psedo religious One Point Church.

MA are not about believing. Aikido is not about believing.

I dont know jack about aikido techniques since i'm pretty new but then if i didn't "believe" in the application of aikido, especially now when everthing is so unfamilar to me, i would not continue. same thing with any MA i've considered in the past.

everything requires a certain amount of faith and the word "believe" is not restricted to religion itself. for eg, a certain amount of faith is put on your sensei, in hope that he/she will impart the neccesary knowledge to you. Anyone starting serious MA training will not continue if they dont "believe" that the techniques they learn can be duplicated in an outside environment or that it can give them a certain egde.

as for this "psedo religious One Point Church" you refer to, isn't it all just words. end of day, you're looking for balance which would give you max leverage for whatever technique you wish to put on, however you want to call it. no need to put us "religious" aikido folk down.

As for me now, when i can't even take ukemi properly, "believe" is all i have to fall back on. and maybe a little bit of "mysticism".... :rolleyes:

p/s - any diff between believe and blind trust?

dps

07-12-2006, 11:07 PM

Second point is that 99.9999999% of world population aikido students need 20 - 30 years of hard physical training. Not once a month or once a week -- every day training. Not concepts,,,,,, .
Definition of concept from the American Heritage Dictionary;
' Something formed in the mind; a thought or notion.'

Didn't O'Sensei have a concept ( thought or notion ) and didn't he call that concept ( thought or notion) Aikido?

When is the video coming out?

07-13-2006, 02:25 AM

Sxczepan writes........
Dan,
First of all you are not practicing aikido. So I have very mixed feeling about your 'stuff'.
Soccer masters are good in soccer. Tennis masters are good in tennis. And you Dan, you are good in what?
Credibility of your opinions about aikido depends of your training level in aikido. Not in MMA, not in judo, not in some other more or less esoteric arts. Aikido. We are talking here about aikido.

Second point is that 99.9999999% of world population aikido students need 20 - 30 years of hard physical training. Not once a month or once a week -- every day training. Not concepts, but simple body conditioning with aikido techniques. Without such base, any abstract idea will be not only misunderstood, but will help very much to regress on the Way.

Szczepan
I take no offense at your critique. I hope you take no offense at mine. I think your art can be stopped dead in its tracks by these skills -without using any technique whatsoever to do so- in just a few years training. Virtually nulllified. If it takes you thirty years to understand these skills-if you ever do-is the failure of your teachers in Aikido or your own prejudice. In either case I feel very bad for you.

What you fail to understand is the things being highlighted here are the very foundation of your art...not what you have been doing.

On any other day I will argue that your founder continually ranted against mindsets just like yours and he freed himself of it to be rid of it.. How many times did he see movement and call it great Aikido. When he met a Sumo player named Tenryu he graduated him in three months telling him he had nothing more to teach him.
Now just imagine Ueshiba telling you he had nothing more to teach you...............................................
And this was to a sumo guy?
You would be the doof student in the room saying "What do you mean Ueshiba sensei? He doesn't understand Aikido!!"

I've just trained with one of the highest Chen Tai chi men in the world from Chen village and twenty of his students doing push hands. I told them "I can't do Tai chi, I don' know Tai chi, that I've never done Tai chi." A mere four hours in they told me I had better internal skills than them. And that I could help fix their Tai chi.
Their teacher could do nothing to me and bounced off me.

Even Rob with such little experience has met a highly trained man from Sagawa dojo and promptly announced here that "He had no structure."

These skills are the apex of all these arts, and they are the thread that runs through them and joins them like a string of pearls. Which are frequently laid before swine
The internets quite interesting. Quite a cast of charactors. I would sugget to you that you ignore this talk of these skills. Ignore me.
Theres nothing here for you to learn.

Dan

Mark Freeman

07-13-2006, 04:33 AM

Sorry Mark, I had to miss your post by mistake, don't take it personally.

Ppl who belive in this thing repeat 'one point mantra' all time, instead of doing real physical actions, exactly as in most of religions. Of course nobody can see any results of that, but those believers seems to ignor this simple fact. Again, typical for religious folks.

Yes.

Lets not enter into philosophical argumentation. This way leads to nowhere land.

If I hit you well enough to make you KO you can safely say it was really real.

Who is the judge of what is really pithy and what is not?

I don't take it personally Szczepan, no problem ;)

And if you were to throw a punch at me for an intended KO and I move from my 'one point' and throw you, would you then accept that the one point was 'real'? I somehow doubt it :p

Your answers to my questions seem to be a good way of digging yourself into a hole and throwing away the shovel :D ( but don't take it personally ;) )

regards,

Mark
p.s. Who is the judge of what is really pithy and what is not?...Me! :p

Dazzler

07-13-2006, 05:00 AM

Hmmm.

Some thread this - gets the grey matter churning a bit.

On the one point itself. Well - firstly no one seems to deny that there is a centre to the body - via locking the elbows to the body and using a rigid arm its fairly easy to see that this will allow transfer of all the bodys mass to a target, as opposed to using a moving arm and the muscular force to perhaps just land the mass of a persons arm.

I'll suggest this is akin to the ability of boxers that can "punch their weight".

While I hate the term unbendable arm (since I always keep a slight bend in mine to protect the elbow) its fairly easy to see the benefits. If you look at most modern tow trucks they use a rigid bar rather than a flexible chain since it gives much better control when pulling. Energy is not lost in the erratic movement of the chain.

Again - look at boxing ...a straight cross down the line with the body mass firmly behind it is a lot more powerful than just an arm based punch.

So...I guess my point is that on a physical level you can see the benefits of using the centre of the body to utilise all of the bodies weight to maximise the power achieved.

Add in to this equation that the human body is fairly strong in the oblique Kamea used when facing an opponent / Uke but has a triangular point of weakness to the front and also to the rear (which are joined by the irimi line then its reasonable ...(again on a physical level) to accept that if Tori places the centre of his body on either the weak point to the front eg Ikkyo omote, or the weak point to the rear eg sumi otoshi or irimi nage) or even attacks down this irimi line eg Tenchi Nage then he is using his maximum force against points of weakness of Uke and thus increasing his mechanical or physical advantage.

So ....I'd suggest from a physical angle there are some clear reasons for practicing with the idea of centre.

Now ...for me, one of the special things about Aikido is that it has many layers and levels of practice, like an onion perhaps.

Moving away from the physical you move into realms of ki and suchlike. Much harder ideas to swallow for most of us. I certainly can offer no expert explanation and won't even try to compete with specialists such as Mr. Sigman accept to say its a choice - you can acknowledge that years of Asian tradition were founded on something and work towards an understanding...or dismiss it and work towards the purely physical.

Its the individuals choice...we can't all be cage fighting champon of the world...but that doesn't demean our martial arts...if you accept that its not just about fighting.

Which leads me on to Dan Hardens point. I can't really ague with him at all. As I was reminded when I practiced jujitsu and vale tude ..Its possible to improve 'fighting' ability much quicker than through Aikido.

I've seen students walk in the door who were regular fighters outside the dojo...I don't want to say street fighters since few were in charlie bronsons film persona league...but they were guys that have / had regular fights. One of them may even have been me.

I can't really say that Aikido will make guys with this edge better fighters.

Starting to consider thing from the point of the receiver of the battering, accepting that not everyone is a target are all things that can slow down the desire to give pre-emptive strike followed by the quick deliver of the telling blows from no where that typifies the majority of "fights" in the uk.

I do think that those that stay have better lives.

Less chance of jail, less chance of receiving a knife from someone who wants the glory of their title but is scared to toe to toe with them.

Who knows for sure?

Anyway - I'll add that those that went the distance in jujitsu were 90% young fit men, we all had the same skinhead look...whats going the distance? well - I'll say achieving a pretty good standard where you'd mix it with everyone in the club without getting murdered. I lasted 8 years before a combination of neck injury and elbow damage forced me out. I was also 40 so creeping well up to my sell by date....and I still got murdered by the top league.

Anyway - back in the safer realms of Aikido I train with a much broader section of people. Sure most of them would lose in a fight to most of the guys with similar and less experience in the more fight based jujitsu. I like to think this doesn't invalidate them or their aikido. However I have met a few in Aikido that can fight and would be just at home in ether disciple. I just think Aikido being a bit less obvious is sometimes a harder road mentally.

Who actually wins in a fight anyway? the guy in hospital or dead? or the young guy that put a knife in him in a drunken rage and faces a 10 stretch plus a lifetime of looking over his shoulder and knowing he's deprived a bunch of kids of a father or brother?

Even in a crap fight - you spend 2 days suffering adrenaline dump hoping the other guy hasn't got a blood clot on the brain.

No one really wins.

Maybe O'Sensei felt that Tenru just wanted to fight and that was it.

One day maybe we'll get to ask him in the big dojo in the sky.

anyway Dan - thanks for your posts - I enjoy them and very much welcome an alternative opinion to help keep our feet on the ground.

Cheers

D

Robert Rumpf

07-13-2006, 06:18 AM

Robert Rumpf -

Tautology.

Of course 'concepts' don't exist in reality! The word roots mean "with head"

The moment I speak I am using symbols. I have left reality behind. Read 'The Structure of Scientific Revolutions' by Thomas Kuhn. Without a paradigm there can be no scientific investigation. In lay terms - without a frame of reference we can learn nothing 'conceptual'.

So, don't throw out the baby with the bath water and argue that concepts aren't real. If they are useful to some people, then they are valid - whether you buy it or not. They honestly don't give a damn.

David

I was being facetious and sarcastic, as my links should have indicated... I don't really agree with him. My perception was that the links that I included in my post more clearly stated one extremely useful interpretation of One Point more clearly than I could, and were self-explanatory. I was mocking the idea of dismissing center of mass when thinking about moving.

Just so that there is no confusion: I think that the idea of One Point is very important. I'm not sure about the ki-related connotations of such ideas, but physics at least I have some understanding of.

Sorry to be confusing.. Likewise sorry to Mary.

Rob

Robert Rumpf

07-13-2006, 06:32 AM

Just to toss in my 2 cents. The idea of "center of mass" being the "one point" sort of means that Asians were dummies to give some obscure term to such an obvious concept, doesn't it? In other words, to toss off "one point" as being something as obvious as "center of mass" is a little patronizing toward Asians. If they're that dumb and obvious, why on earth would anyone elect to do their martial arts?

I personally think the "one point" or "dantien" or "tanden", etc., concept is a lot more complicated that it appears to be. The physical "dantien" can be thought of as a muscular soccer ball that is attached to the spine and hips and moves in accordance with them and the forces of the ground or the weight. The "one point" could then be the figurative center of this area.... and that would be far more sophisticated than this discussion has become.

However, while the above paragraph is true, it neglects a very sophisticated part of what is the actual "ki" or "qi" in the way the mind directs the forces. And sure, I was unaware of this stuff at one time too, so I'm not trying to be supercilious. But if you know how to trigger the ki things, suddenly you see a clever way to manipulate forces and what a real "one point" is becomes clear. A real "Aha!". And suddenly those dumb ole Asians don't appear as dumb or as superficial as we thought. Maybe instead of interpretting on what we know, we should consider the possibility that there are things that we simply didn't learn in our training?

FWIW

Mike Sigman

I'm not sure that smart or dumb really means that much in this - it could be a translation issue. In addition, I'm not sure how much (for example) O'Sensei knew about physics and the terminology associated with it.

While I don't think that center of mass is ALL of what they meant by One Point, I do that it is a piece of the concept - or at least something worth considering in my Aikido. Its also something that ki skeptics or agnostics can get a piece of.

I'm working on my Aikido piecemeal and attacking the ideas that are within reach (I currently don't "how to trigger the ki things" and am not making discernable progress along that path). Thinking in ways that I somewhat understand (physics) is a way for me to make some sort of progress.

I'm sure we can debate the wisdom of this, but I'd rather not.. :) I've already been told on some other thread that my basics suck, and I'd rather not hear that everywhere.

Rob

Robert Rumpf

07-13-2006, 06:42 AM

Hey, that was my post, get your own. :)

What can I say - just living up to the verb that is my name.

Rob

aikigirl10

07-13-2006, 06:47 AM

I'm convinced that you guys you are doing psedo religious One Point Church.

lmao

bob_stra

07-13-2006, 07:15 AM

This may be of interest (specifically: see bolded section), as it refers peripherally to "One Point". From a current JudoInfo thread

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=11623
******************************

(From Feldenkrais Journal 19, Issue #2 "Martial Moshe Interview" pp
8-10 )

Q: You were talking the other day about ki, chi, that kind of thing.
I'd like to know what you think about that

Feldenkrais: Ki and chi are the same thing. You'd better, about chi and ki, ask
Chinese or other Asian people. Because they talk about Ki and chi. I
can tell you only about Koizumi, when he wanted to talk about it. There
was an international congress of judo black belts in London and I was
one of them.

There were about 500 there. And we had a special course
conducted by Koizumi. And then in the middle of the course, on the
fifth day he suddenly says "Now I am going to talk to you about the
most important principle in judo training, about the saika-tanden. Some
people call call it tantien, the seat of chi, ki or whatever you like,
but it's the saika-tanden in Japanese. But Feldenkrais, come here" he
said to the whole assemblage.

'I believe he will talk to you about the
saika-tanden more sensibly and in a way you'll understand. It is
something which I feel and know, but which I cannot explain". And then
he let me explain for the people there. And he wrote the preface of my
book. The thing is this, when you talk of such matters in my way, no
one will take it for ki or chi, You see, most people talk about that as
if it's a mysterious kind of thing in the lower abdomen with all sorts
of metaphysical powers. I have no connection with that"

Q: But this is only a semantic difference, isn't it?

A: Oh, no. A semantic difference. No. Ghosts are a semantic difference?
Ghosts are something which if you believe in and your are afraid of
ghosts, you are afraid of ghosts. You will never go into a haunted
house

Q: Yes, but you must know...it's not semantic, but you must know from
your practice something, the importance, what they call in language,
tanden

A: Of course I know

Q: And their description of it, while it may be...

A: My description of it is only in movement. I am not concerned with
the other things

...

Q: But what you're talking about is different?

A: Yes, I told you. In movement, I can show you what chi is, what ki
is, on you or anybody else. Can you see that my notions on breathing
are different from anything you heard before and will ever hear? You
can see it, you can test it, on yourself, and there is a marked
difference between the one and the other, provided you can make the
contrast.

Q: Okay, for example, in martial arts training, in Aikido, when they
have the notion of unbendable arm or they talk about focusing
somewhere, like a couple of inches below the navel and a couple of
inches inside the lower abdomen, and then having your weight underside
and not being stiff, but not relaxed, but having your attention...

A: Well, I don't know that it's a few inches here and few inches there.
It has to do with the full organization of your body, you can see it in
whatever you do. You actually get chi through using the pelvis and the
lower abdominal muscles, the strong muscles of the body as a unit
concentrated where all the push or pull is issued.

The rest of the body and the arms needn't be powerful. It's not a muscle, it's not a point.
It has nothing to do with a point, because if it were a point...Look,
if you move your body like that, the point is gone. A point a few
inches here, a few inches there, if you go there, you will find it is
full of #%*/, literally. (Laughter). That point is full of #%*/.

...

Q: Your teacher and Kano, were training with that notion in a cultural
matrix that allowed them not to view it so mysteriously?

A: Oh, certainly, And Kano, when he had already a school where most of
the people could beat anybody in Japan, he brought a boy that was 14yrs
old into the dojo and none of those big experts could throw him...They
said "Look, judo no good". And he (Kano) said "you are no good". This
chap will be here until you learn to fight that sort of thing. Only
then will you have a better saika-tanden than he. He is better than any
one of you, therefore you have to learn.*******************************

NagaBaba

07-13-2006, 07:35 AM

What you fail to understand is the things being highlighted here are the very foundation of your art...not what you have been doing.
Dan
How can you know what is fundamental in aikido as you don't practice aikido? You know nothing about it.You cant even guess.

I don't lecture about what engineer or architect must understand as basic of his art, because I'm neither engineer nor architect. It would be very silly.

You misunderstood other point also. 30 years of training is needed to develop conditioning body and mind. 99.9999.....% ppl who start aikido have virtually no experience in any other MA, or even sports. How can you compare them with Tenryu?? Your arguments fail in all line.

NagaBaba

07-13-2006, 07:44 AM

Which means in my mind there's only so many efficient ways to move the human body ;)
<snip>
I think you're just jealous that there's someone that might walk the walk better than how you like to talk the talk :D
We are not discussing here how to do the techniques. The topic here is how 'concepts' (particularly One Point Concept) are useful in aikido training,

And don't start psychoanalyzing me; it is not the topic of this discussion. Of course you are not the first one to do it as you don’t have any valid argument on the topic itself.

Mary Eastland

07-13-2006, 07:45 AM

What is "Imao"?
Mary

bob_stra

07-13-2006, 07:49 AM

Laughing my a$$ off

NagaBaba

07-13-2006, 07:52 AM

What is "Imao"?
Mary
it is probably another useful concept in aikido practice :D :D :D :D :D :D

07-13-2006, 08:01 AM

Q: Your teacher and Kano, were training with that notion in a cultural
matrix that allowed them not to view it so mysteriously?

A: Oh, certainly, And Kano, when he had already a school where most of
the people could beat anybody in Japan, he brought a boy that was 14yrs
old into the dojo and none of those big experts could throw him...They
said "Look, judo no good". And he (Kano) said "you are no good". This
chap will be here until you learn to fight that sort of thing. Only
then will you have a better saika-tanden than he. He is better than any
one of you, therefore you have to learn.*******************************

Bob

Any other refference to who that 14 yr old boy was and where he had trained? I have a theory I'd like to explore.

Szczepan
You are missing the point entirely. it is not about technique and it is why Ueshiba watched and felt tenryu (who did these exercises and body training skills) and started pushing and shoving and had Tenryu pushing on Him. Why would Ueshiba train this way? What value is there and standing there and having someone push on you Szczepan? WIthout using technique. Anything you can think of?
HE said...not me..."This is not my Aikido" while watching all the big dogs playing at the hombu.
Takeda got it
Sagawa got it
Ueshiba got it
Kodo Got it
Harrison wrote of it from a Judo source, then from an Aikijujutsu source
Draeger, Smith, and Relnick all felt it and at various times wrote of it
Amdur felt it and spoke of it
Many modern artists including gold medal Judoka and 6 th dan judoka who could not get near Sagawa and were thrown wrote of it
Stan Pranin saw it and saw a 5 th dan Aikidoka tossed around like a baby by Sagawa
Rob has now enocuntered it and is doing thing with it
I have written of my own experiences stopping Aikido, Jujutsuka and CMAers
Now we read of Kano bringin in a 14 yr ol who could not be thrown.
A 14 YR OLD.....................

I have wondered how it is that these skills, this knowledge has gone on so long, and been written about by so many disparate voices spanning generations (When Harrison asked the Aikijujutsu master if many men in Japan knew this he was told "Very, very few") I am left with three things that stick

1. A double menkyo Kaedan in Japanese Koryu- a very well known chap said to me.
"Dan, I was young and stupid. I had it, right there in front of me and I didn't recognize that THAT was what I should be training for. Instead I sent my life learning ways to fight. Now in his later years he is going back to move forward."

2. All the very reasonable people who read these boards for information and shmoosing who have been led astray by good hearted folks who are in pursuit of a quasy religous nether land Ki that never existed and have squandered their lives contemplating their navels with no power to show for it-so that people with their feet on the ground no longer believe there is anything other than what they know

3. People who train and are shown real world ways to re-wire their minds and bodies and just wont do the work. All while showing up and going nuts over the pwer they feel from a teacher, but they don't work outside the dojo.

Stop and think. In the fullness of time-how do these tales from Pranin, Harrison, Sagawa, Kano exist?

Because single men stood in the face of mediocrity. We had to have had the masses in Budo slogging away at joint locks, kicks and throws to be the mediocre stage-background for the internal art searchers who mastered the real skills. Their understanding went beyond a way to punch, a way to throw, into the very core of what it was to live, breathe, and move and came away with a way to be powerful- past any single art.

I am starting to get why they never wrote about it and were almost to a man reclusive in teaching the real stuff. There just isn't any point. It will always be this way.

A 14 yr old......at the Kodokan who could not be thrown....
Why does that sound familiar
People who say they can't be or are very hard to throw......
Where have I read about that?

Dan

07-13-2006, 08:36 AM

How can you know what is fundamental in aikido as you don't practice aikido? You know nothing about it.You cant even guess.

I don't lecture about what engineer or architect must understand as basic of his art, because I'm neither engineer nor architect. It would be very silly.

You misunderstood other point also. 30 years of training is needed to develop conditioning body and mind. 99.9999.....% ppl who start aikido have virtually no experience in any other MA, or even sports. How can you compare them with Tenryu?? Your arguments fail in all line.

If thats the kind of reply I get after a well thought out post to you. Then I am not going to bother. I offered you my time and respect.
We don't agree, I see that. But I expected more depth in rebuttal.

There are things Szczepan that you simply do not know.

Cheers anyway
Dan

bob_stra

07-13-2006, 08:37 AM

Dan

There is no reference to who the boy was. Someone suggested it may have been Saigo, but I think there's a great deal of evidence against that. Saigo died early 1920's. Feldenkrais didn't hook up with kano till after 1921/22, so there's no way he could have seen a *young*, 14yr old Saigo in action when he visited the Kodokan, circa 1923-1930.

YMMV

Why - who do you suspect it is? I'd like to know myself

07-13-2006, 08:55 AM

Ron Tisdale

07-13-2006, 09:09 AM

Hi Robert,

I got your meaning just fine. I thought it was very well put...

Best,
Ron

gdandscompserv

07-13-2006, 09:16 AM

What is "Imao"?
it is probably another useful concept in aikido practice :D :D :D :D :D :D
it is!
one of O Sensei's rules for training Aikido;
Training should always be conducted in a pleasant and joyful atmosphere. :cool:

Mark Freeman

07-13-2006, 09:20 AM

it is!
one of O Sensei's rules for training Aikido;
Training should always be conducted in a pleasant and joyful atmosphere. :cool:

You beat me to it Ricky, I was going to say the same :cool:

When one is laughing they are likely to have the relaxed state that is needed for aikido, however if they are laughing too hard, this can be counterproductive! :D :D

cheers,

Mark
p.s. lmao!

gdandscompserv

07-13-2006, 09:23 AM

99.9999.....% ppl who start aikido have virtually no experience in any other MA, or even sports.
where ever did you get that statistic?

Mark Freeman

07-13-2006, 09:45 AM

where ever did you get that statistic?

Opinion stated as fact, I thought you would know Ricky, it's what the Internet was invented for ;)

regards,

Mark

gdandscompserv

07-13-2006, 09:51 AM

Doh!

billybob

07-13-2006, 09:57 AM

Rob,

I must apologize as well. I was angry with my wife when I posted, and that tone came across as aggressive. Also, I did not read the links. So, I apologize. Thank you for your candor.

Dan Harden: I've just trained with one of the highest Chen Tai chi men in the world from Chen village and twenty of his students doing push hands. I told them "I can't do Tai chi, I don' know Tai chi, that I've never done Tai chi." A mere four hours in they told me I had better internal skills than them. And that I could help fix their Tai chi.

Dan, peace be with you.

david

ChrisMoses

07-13-2006, 10:29 AM

Larry Cuvin

07-13-2006, 11:06 AM

Another phenomenon that perplexes me is the unliftable body when one "keeps the one point", even with two large persons lifting. When I went back home to the Philippines, as an experiment, I taught my young nephew who probably weighed about 65 lbs the concept of mind and body coordination and one point. He was able to do the unbendable arm relatively easy considering no experience in any concepts of MA. To show his dad the concept as well, we both tried lifting his son while his son kept the one point. When we could not lift his kid, he asked me why and I could not explain. I told him it's beyond Physics so I don't know.

To me, the concept of keeping one point and the coordination of mind and body is the main thing that gets me coming back to the dojo time after time. I'm on my second year in ki aikido and the ki class every training day has made realize to relax more and extend plus ki to everyone. The aikido class that follows the ki class, I consider the "cherry on top". Ki training, I consider the "real meat". I know I have a lifetime of improving to do.

Plus Ki

Mark Freeman

07-13-2006, 11:57 AM

Have to say, having met Mike at one of his workshops when he was in the UK recently, I didn't get this impression at all.
I certainly appreciate any instructor who gets the beers in off their own bat and found him nothing but pleasant and willing to discuss things.

Mark, I don't think the added twists of the thread have done anything but reveal the "One Points" true source - it's whatever I damn well say it is at this point in time. With that in mind, the answer boils down to the nice little homily of "ask your sensei what they think it is" and act accordingly.

Ian,

perhaps we measure character differently over here, "mines a pint, thanks" ;)
I know someone who was also at Mike's recent UK visit, he gave a positive report of both him and the material shown.

Your advice about asking your sensei, is of course correct (damn you :p ).

cheers,

Mark

billybob

07-13-2006, 12:16 PM

Venerable Ian Hurst said Mark, I don't think the added twists of the thread have done anything but reveal the "One Points" true source - it's whatever I damn well say it is at this point in time. With that in mind, the answer boils down to the nice little homily of "ask your sensei what they think it is" and act accordingly.

I disagree. Sensei facilitates MY learning. My teacher is the same teacher OSensei had - life. I am responsible for what I learn. Sensei gets credit for putting up with me. I have to do the learning.

Regarding the 'one point' or hara, or ki - I'll 'TRUST MY GUT'

thanks

david

Ron Tisdale

07-13-2006, 12:43 PM

Dan explained that in detail in the Jo trick thread. Go back and re-read that rather than rehash it here...I would think.

Best,
Ron

akiy

07-13-2006, 12:56 PM

Let's please get back on-topic here, folks. Thank you.

-- Jun

Adman

07-13-2006, 02:32 PM

Okay, Jun. I'll take a stab.
It is not a 'point' but an 'area' located just below the navel,Actually, from what I understand of Tohei sensei's teachings, the 'one point' is a single point. Not an area. Being a principle of the mind, while you can place tension in an area, you cannot place tension in a single point.

I could write more, but I'd only get confused. And I have a meeting in 15 minutes.

thanks,
Adam

Adam Alexander

07-13-2006, 05:17 PM

Is it simply the point of balance?

And how does concentrating on it help me do things like unbendable arm? I assume that I'm subconsicously rearranging my weight/balance, or using other muscles?

Would O Sensei have considered it the place where Ki is stored, or something like that?

I believe I know what it is. I think I found it about a year ago.

I would recommend that you train nearly everyday (if not every day). Do lots of kata. When you're ready, just like all of it, you'll discover it by accident.

Atleast that's what I think happened to me.

Oh, and I forgot: If I had it to do all over again, I wouldn't spend a moment worrying about those things. I'd just practice movements. Seems like everything else just comes when necessary.

I kind of figure that all that "center" and "harmony" stuff is very valuable. However, it's like when you meditate and try to force something out of your mind. It just gets stronger. When you focus on things like "center" before it's time, seems like you'd just be holding on stronger to how you're doing it now.

I don't know. Hell, I really don't know. But it just seems that like that's been my experience.

akiy

07-13-2006, 06:15 PM

Dan and Mike's off-topic discussion as well as related posts have been moved here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10649

-- Jun

dps

07-14-2006, 02:19 AM

Dan and Mike's off-topic discussion as well as related posts have been moved here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10649

-- Jun
Maybe they should get their own website(www.danandmike.com) for their discussions(?). :)

happysod

07-14-2006, 03:29 AM

I disagree. Sensei facilitates MY learning. My teacher is the same teacher OSensei had - life. I am responsible for what I learn. Sensei gets credit for putting up with me. I have to do the learning Agree up to a point, however, the ethos within your dojo will slant how you learn, what areas are concentrated on and the nature of that understanding. Which is why aikiweb provides us with the gamut from the great satsumas "don't think just kill" to "rocks can talk and have feelings". The is one of the main benefits I believe forums provide - alternate viewpoints and (hopefully) new ideas.

Generally, my use of one point is the fairly basic - essentially the point on your waist about 2-3 fingers below your navel, the point used in tai-chi for standing meditation. Not the same as your centre as this should change depending on your connection with your partner (I nearly said uke, but as uke you still should be keeping your centre - naughty me)

Anyway - venerable? am I really sounding that old... must start reading the adverts for the big slipper and the hairy old man fuzz-away products to keep up with ymy trendy new status

Mark - beer's always a good leveller, I'll have a small port and lemon

Mark Freeman

07-14-2006, 03:35 AM

Agree up to a point, however, the ethos within your dojo will slant how you learn, what areas are concentrated on and the nature of that understanding. Which is why aikiweb provides us with the gamut from the great satsumas "don't think just kill" to "rocks can talk and have feelings". The is one of the main benefits I believe forums provide - alternate viewpoints and (hopefully) new ideas.

Generally, my use of one point is the fairly basic - essentially the point on your waist about 2-3 fingers below your navel, the point used in tai-chi for standing meditation. Not the same as your centre as this should change depending on your connection with your partner (I nearly said uke, but as uke you still should be keeping your centre - naughty me)

Anyway - venerable? am I really sounding that old... must start reading the adverts for the big slipper and the hairy old man fuzz-away products to keep up with ymy trendy new status

Mark - beer's always a good leveller, I'll have a small port and lemon

To the Venerable Ian Hurst :D

good 'points' o wise one, I am envious of your newly raised status on these esteemed fora, but port and lemon? is this drink really befitting of your new status? ;)

Cheers,

Mark
p.s. I'm afraid I still only qualify for a beer.

billybob

07-14-2006, 08:49 AM

Funny how even showing respect is 'atemi' in a way.

I showed respect then cut in as hard as I could. And yes Ian, taking that kind of thrust in stride, as did one other when I attacked in anger on this thread, is venerable!

I agree that environment slants; just making the point that I'm responsible for my own training.

david

tedehara

07-14-2006, 07:01 PM

We are not discussing here how to do the techniques. The topic here is how 'concepts' (particularly One Point Concept) are useful in aikido training,...If you could just clarify this. Are you saying that only the concept and system of one point isn't worth pursuing, or are you saying all theoretical concepts and systems aren't worth doing as opposed to practice-on-the-mat, in order to advance in understanding aikido?
:confused: confused

NagaBaba

07-14-2006, 08:33 PM

If you could just clarify this. Are you saying that only the concept and system of one point isn't worth pursuing, or are you saying all theoretical concepts and systems aren't worth doing as opposed to practice-on-the-mat, in order to advance in understanding aikido?
:confused: confused

IMO aikido is not 'conceptual' practice. It is purely physical training. Source of 'body knowledge' are physical techniques. These 'pure' techniques should form our understanding of aikido.

However many intelligent and highly educated ppl find this Way too boring. They develop concepts (taking as the source of those concepts mainly ideas or domains that has nothing to do with aikido) and are trying to adapt techniques to these concepts. That makes distortions and false the results. This way 'transmission' from a Founder is lost for ever and these ppl get confused and lost their Way.

dps

07-14-2006, 08:47 PM

IMO aikido is not 'conceptual' practice. It is purely physical training. Source of 'body knowledge' are physical techniques. These 'pure' techniques should form our understanding of aikido.
You could say that O'Sensei did the concept work and left us the physical techniques or body knowledge as his Way.

However many intelligent and highly educated ppl find this Way too boring. .
I would also add" many people who think they are."

NagaBaba

07-14-2006, 08:47 PM

where ever did you get that statistic?

Have you ever been to any big seminar? I suggest you go and observe how ppl move, their stamina, body coordination...etc. I'm talking here about beginners.

Founder 'beginners' students were very well developed martial artist from different styles. So he could use different teaching tools.
Presently it is impossible.

NagaBaba

07-14-2006, 09:26 PM

I mean this as a genuine question to S.

How do you reconcile the fact that the Chief Instructor of the Aikikai at a time when most of the instructors you trace yourself back to were uchideshi, considers the One Point concept one of the four core principles of Aikido?

How do you reconcile the fact that the Founder himself concidered that goal of aikido is Unification with Univers human being that stands in Silver Bridge between Heaven and Earth, and you are not even unified with tatami? :D

K.Tohei is one of most sophisticated aikido masters, if you think you as a simple mortal, you can use tools from his level your are or naive or hopeless optimist.

tedehara

07-14-2006, 10:37 PM

IMO aikido is not 'conceptual' practice. It is purely physical training. Source of 'body knowledge' are physical techniques. These 'pure' techniques should form our understanding of aikido...Thanks for clearing up my confusion on your perspective. I thought that would be your answer, but I wasn't sure if you were just talking about "one point" or conceptual practice as a whole.

aikigirl10

07-14-2006, 10:39 PM

K.Tohei is one of most sophisticated aikido masters, if you think you as a simple mortal, you can use tools from his level your are or naive or hopeless optimist.

simple mortal? lmao

what does that make you? ...a cockroach?

I guess Tohei was Madonna....

gdandscompserv

07-14-2006, 11:27 PM

Have you ever been to any big seminar?
seminars seem more popular here in America than they were in Okinawa.
of course, there really wasn't a need for it when you had the very best Aikido in one's "backyard."
i do remember Moriteru Ueshiba Sensei dropping by for a couple of dan examinations. that was always cool.
:D

Mark Freeman

07-15-2006, 10:45 AM

IMO aikido is not 'conceptual' practice. It is purely physical training. Source of 'body knowledge' are physical techniques. These 'pure' techniques should form our understanding of aikido.

However many intelligent and highly educated ppl find this Way too boring. They develop concepts (taking as the source of those concepts mainly ideas or domains that has nothing to do with aikido) and are trying to adapt techniques to these concepts. That makes distortions and false the results. This way 'transmission' from a Founder is lost for ever and these ppl get confused and lost their Way.

I would like to offer an opposing opinion, aikido is 'not' a purely physical training, it of course involves physical training but the mind is not on holiday when practicing. If the body 'and mind' are not co-ordinated then in my view aiki is not present. Training the mind to be in the right place at the right time are as much apart of aikido as the physical movements.

O Sensei didn't come up with aikido for the express purpose of conditioning just the body, my simple take on his teachings are that aikido is a system to co-ordinate mind, body and spirit. Through constant training we battle with the only opponent we face every day, ourselves.

If you train just the 'physical' fine, up to you, but please don't try to diminish the intelligence of others who may not subscribe to your may I say, limited interpretation.

regards,

Mark

Mark Freeman

07-15-2006, 10:50 AM

Mike Sigman

07-15-2006, 10:54 AM

When practicing what he taught, we of course can't function at his level, but through diligent practice, we can get closer to what he did. It's not rocket science. ;) Bollocks, if you'll pardon the expression. If you know what someone else does and you work smarter and harder, you can pass them. All heroes are human.

FWIW

Mike

Mark Freeman

07-15-2006, 11:03 AM

Bollocks, if you'll pardon the expression. If you know what someone else does and you work smarter and harder, you can pass them. All heroes are human.

FWIW

Mike

Mike,

I agree with you, I was just trying to respond to the wild man of the north, who seemed to raise Tohei to some unattainable level by mere mortals.

I don't mind the use of the vernacular, keeps it real ;)

regards,

Mark

Mark Freeman

07-15-2006, 11:13 AM

Bollocks, if you'll pardon the expression. If you know what someone else does and you work smarter and harder, you can pass them. All heroes are human.

FWIW

Mike

Mike,

p.s. I don't have any heroes only some people I respect more than others.

Would you say that your aikido has surpassed Tohei's? ;)

regards,

Mark

ChrisMoses

07-15-2006, 04:27 PM

How do you reconcile the fact that the Founder himself concidered that goal of aikido is Unification with Univers human being that stands in Silver Bridge between Heaven and Earth, and you are not even unified with tatami? :D

K.Tohei is one of most sophisticated aikido masters, if you think you as a simple mortal, you can use tools from his level your are or naive or hopeless optimist.

1) Personally I've decided that I have nearly no idea what OSensei actually wanted for his creation, or how much of it was actually his creation. I think that at least 90% of what we know of Aikido came from other 'senior' instructors that had relatively little time with OSensei, then used all the many conflicting things he had to say to support their own adgenda. Kinda like how people use religious texts to support their own thing. (Like all of the homophopes quoting Leviticus to justify their insaine hatred and fear, and then then playing some football and chowing down on some ribs.) Then I decided to train with people who could explain physically how to reproduce all of the sensations I'd felt from senior Aikidoka. I'm not sure if it's even Aikido anymore, and don't particularly care. I'm reminded of my guitar teacher in junior high. I wanted to learn Van Hallen riffs, his response was, "Learn Jimmi first, if you have to learn where someone came from to understand where they went."

2) As others have pointed out, Tohei developed his *teaching model* around ki and concepts of ki. I believe your head is so fully buried within the dogmatic framework of mainline Aikikai that you can't even acknowledge other teching systems, even if they influenced those who you study from. You my friend will always take the blue pill and wake up tasting steak and chicken and never looking past what you've been told.

billybob

07-17-2006, 10:13 AM

Nagababa,

I respect your assertively stated opinions. It can be very powerful to describe what is true, and what is not true. Your approach can save you, or any students you have a great deal of time - if you are correct.

Thus, IMO aikido is not 'conceptual' practice. It is purely physical training. Source of 'body knowledge' are physical techniques. These 'pure' techniques should form our understanding of aikido. - Nagababa

When you face multiple opponents, and you have three to six seconds before the signal to begin, do you strategize? Do you size up the people, consider their strengths and weaknesses? Or do you waste the three to six seconds and hope your 'highly trained instincts' carry you through?

In my humble opinion it's a pity to waste the time.

david

NagaBaba

07-17-2006, 12:03 PM

When you face multiple opponents, and you have three to six seconds before the signal to begin, do you strategize? Do you size up the people, consider their strengths and weaknesses? Or do you waste the three to six seconds and hope your 'highly trained instincts' carry you through?

In my humble opinion it's a pity to waste the time.

david
Looks like you don't practice aikido as a Budo.
Facing multiple opponents there is no "signal to begin" -- this concept came from sport-like approach. It has nothing to do with aikido practice.

Because you don't practice aikido as a Budo, you don't apply Founder teaching -- one must control opponent before attack starts.This should be your strategy :D It is particulary true facing multiple opponents.
So my answer is no I don't waste time to size up the people, consider their strengths and weaknesses..etc.
Please meditate about that. ;)

billybob

07-17-2006, 12:38 PM

"Looks like you don't practice aikido as a Budo.
Facing multiple opponents there is no "signal to begin" -- this concept came from sport-like approach. It has nothing to do with aikido practice.

Because you don't practice aikido as a Budo, you don't apply Founder teaching -- one must control opponent before attack starts.This should be your strategy It is particulary true facing multiple opponents.
So my answer is no I don't waste time to size up the people, consider their strengths and weaknesses..etc.
Please meditate about that. "

No point meditating on your advice Sir. Do you realize you answer according to the same formula every time on this web? You indicate the questioner does not understand the True Way, you fail to answer the question posed, and then suggest said questioner refer to some obtuse unanswerable mystery that you alone grasp. Sir, I propose that if you can not, will not, answer questions posed that you stop wasting our time and hold your tongue.

OSensei was a man; I am a man. The universe teaches me as it taught him. This is enough.

David

NagaBaba

07-17-2006, 09:37 PM

Sir, I propose that if you can not, will not, answer questions posed that you stop wasting our time and hold your tongue.
David
Your proposition was rejected.

dps

07-17-2006, 09:54 PM

Nagababa,When you face multiple opponents, and you have three to six seconds before the signal to begin, do you strategize? Do you size up the people, consider their strengths and weaknesses? Or do you waste the three to six seconds and hope your 'highly trained instincts' carry you through?

In competition yes, in real life maybe no. If you have three to six seconds to strategize, tell a joke or run like hell!! If you have no time you must rely on 'highly trained instincts' and mushy mind, wait, no musin no shin, no musin no mushim, you know react without thinking.

Gernot Hassenpflug

07-18-2006, 03:45 AM

Your proposition was rejected.

I like you, you of unspellable name. :cool:

I wuoldsay, at this moment in my training, that "highly trained instincts" is "highly trained" but not "instinct". I train to "stand", and focus on this throughout whatever movement I make of contact there is with the others. If I fail to remain "standing" (or "sitting" for that matter) no power issues forth, so I concentrate solely on the "standing" part. The rest takes care of itself, in the background.

billybob

07-18-2006, 10:41 AM

Nagababa Your proposition was rejected.

Good! I wouldn't expect someone of good character to take that at face value. I was in fact trying to make a point.

Will you entertain the discussion Sir? I intend it as training -- and I will show you the respect you are due.

David

Guilty Spark

07-18-2006, 02:33 PM

What advice could you guys give to non-dan aikidoa on how to begin to find their one point and start to use it in their aikido?

Adam Alexander

07-18-2006, 03:31 PM

What advice could you guys give to non-dan aikidoa on how to begin to find their one point and start to use it in their aikido?

If I'm on the right path, I'd say that I'm discovering/developing it by sticking with the warm-up exercises and practicing.

Upyu

07-18-2006, 05:18 PM

I like you, you of unspellable name. :cool:

I wuoldsay, at this moment in my training, that "highly trained instincts" is "highly trained" but not "instinct". I train to "stand", and focus on this throughout whatever movement I make of contact there is with the others. If I fail to remain "standing" (or "sitting" for that matter) no power issues forth, so I concentrate solely on the "standing" part. The rest takes care of itself, in the background.

And so really really really good advice goes un-noticed. Funny how that works isn't it Gernot? :D

MaryKaye

07-18-2006, 05:53 PM

What advice could you guys give to non-dan aikidoa on how to begin to find their one point and start to use it in their aikido?

As a kyu rank myself, I'd say that the "partner funekogi" exercise was one of the best for me. Funekogi is the rowing exercise where you move your hips forward, then thrust out your arms; move your hips back, then retract your arms. The partner version adds someone holding you by both wrists.

This is very unforgiving if you are off-balance, not moving from your center, or leaving out the hip movements and trying to use your arms. If partner is well-balanced himself he can easily stop you, whereas if you do it right, you can move almost anyone.

Another good one is the "stooping" ki test. You stand in hanmi and then bend over as if you intend to tie your shoe. You should be low enough that your fingers brush the top of your foot. Partner pushes your hips forward from behind. The difference between having bent over "from one point" and in other ways is immediately (and embarrassingly) evident.

When you have a feeling for this, you can take a technique that is not working very well and look for places where you can move more like you move in those exercises. Experiment; see what happens.

Mary Kaye

Mike Sigman

07-18-2006, 06:23 PM

(snip) If partner is well-balanced himself he can easily stop you, whereas if you do it right, you can move almost anyone.

Another good one is the "stooping" ki test. You stand in hanmi and then bend over as if you intend to tie your shoe. You should be low enough that your fingers brush the top of your foot. Partner pushes your hips forward from behind. The difference between having bent over "from one point" and in other ways is immediately (and embarrassingly) evident. In both cases, the optimum response has partner's force and/or uke's response coming as much from the foot as possible. A resistance from higher in the body simply provides a lever-arm from which to break the foot's connection with the ground. I.e., "keeping the one point" in this case means the same thing that "sinking the qi" means.... source the force from as low as possible in the body. When done correctly, it is easy to feel the compression in the foot.

That was a good post, Mary.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Gernot Hassenpflug

07-18-2006, 11:42 PM

In both cases, the optimum response has partner's force and/or uke's response coming as much from the foot as possible. A resistance from higher in the body simply provides a lever-arm from which to break the foot's connection with the ground. I.e., "keeping the one point" in this case means the same thing that "sinking the qi" means.... source the force from as low as possible in the body. When done correctly, it is easy to feel the compression in the foot.

That was a good post, Mary.

Very enlightening stuff! I wonder if this is similar: standing in the train facing direction of motion, and remaining standing against any de/acceleration. Acceleration is the killer. When managing to "pull oneself up" against either, which I do by forcing myself to stretch upwards through the spine (focussing on the neck area) even more strongly, then the ankles and roof of the feet seem to alternately float or pull (and the weight settle in the heels in both cases). An important factor seems to be whether the waist area (say between the top of the hips and the ribs) can be felt to be stretched apart. Once that feeling is reached (on top of pulling up from the back of the neck) the effort of remaining straight (not bending at the center) is no longer felt as an effort.

I do find it hard to balance "upward stretch" with "relaxation" and "focus on center", so I was happy to see that what I wrote about above made a big difference in how "relaxed" I felt to the partner in the dojo even though the "upward stretch" remained the same focus as before. It's like if you aren't really stretching the partner can feel the tension (due to separation of upper and lower and the subsequent action of muscles to support the "floating" upper part), but if you are stretching really all the parts, the partner feels the ground. I think :confused: !

Regards,
Gernot

Mark Freeman

07-19-2006, 05:29 AM

As a kyu rank myself, I'd say that the "partner funekogi" exercise was one of the best for me. Funekogi is the rowing exercise where you move your hips forward, then thrust out your arms; move your hips back, then retract your arms. The partner version adds someone holding you by both wrists.

This is very unforgiving if you are off-balance, not moving from your center, or leaving out the hip movements and trying to use your arms. If partner is well-balanced himself he can easily stop you, whereas if you do it right, you can move almost anyone.

This is a good exercise for highlighting if someone is moving from 'one point'.

I have found that there are two distinct types of uke for this exercise, the first is where the (well co-ordinated) uke holds the outstretched wrists and if the partner does not move correctly from their centre, they stay put, thereby showing up the fault in tori's movement. The second is when the uke moves with 'non resistance' by this I mean that they follow tori's movement completely, if the movement is being done with any tension this will manifest by the co-ordinated uke following this to its conclusion, which usually means moving tori backwards. This second method is a higher level of testing as it requires uke to be totally non resistant, something that comes with a fair amount of practice as most people do not step onto the mat with this skill.

Great exercise, easy to get wrong, easy to get right ;)

regards,

Mark

Mark Freeman

07-19-2006, 05:59 AM

What advice could you guys give to non-dan aikidoa on how to begin to find their one point and start to use it in their aikido?

Hi Grant,

a short story....

before I started aikido, I picked up Tohei's book Aikido in Daily life, I was on a trip abroad, and after reading just a couple of chapters decided that when I got home I would start ( and never stop! ) this art.

Anyway, I spent the summer working for a friend up in the Gaspe Penninsular, who owned a fish restaurant. The first day I was there we went out into the sea in a zodiac ( inflatable ) type boat, to catch the evenings mackerel for supper. Things were going well, our bucket was full of fish ;), then we noticed the weather closing in pretty fast, we were quite a way out, so we decided to head back at full speed.
I was sitting to one side near the front, holding onto the bow rope, the rain had started, the wind was getting up and the sea was getting choppy. I could see the shore, but knew there was about 15-20 minutes of flat out motoring to get back.
I had a tight grip on the rope, I was being bounced around quite roughly on the inflatable side, my jaws were glamped tight shut and my eyes were squinted. I was a mass of tension, and I thought, I'll be lucky to last the next 15 mins. It then crossed my mind to try to use the 'one point' concept that I had read about in the book. So I just let everything in my mind 'sink' to below my navel, and within seconds, I found that I was able to release my tight grip on the rope, my balance became connected with the surface I was sitting on, my eyes opened and I even started to enjoy the feeling of the riain hitting my face ( quite hard! ). My journey back was transformed from one of dread to one of exhilarated enjoyment. I stepped onto dry land invigorated and 'transformed'. I knew from that moment that knowing about or rather using 'one point' was a useful everyday state. I still after 14 years of aikido think that, even more so.

Finding your one point is easy, keeping the 'feeling' is not so easy and is where the practice comes in. Finding the right teacher to reinforce the practice is also useful. Relaxation, breath work, mental imagary / meditation, all help to reinforce the state.

regards,

Mark

happysod

07-19-2006, 07:53 AM

Partner pushes your hips forward from behind. The difference between having bent over "from one point" and in other ways is immediately (and embarrassingly) evident. Please god no, not the shoe-lace test Mary, I've been trying to get that one banned for years on the grounds you look like a complete and utter perv doing it...

Continuing the possible exercises - use just the compression part of say undo so the arm is already across ukes chest, try to get the feeling of sinking into your "one point" and having an effect. Make sure there's no semaphore of the arms or upward body strength used and that the other hand is used during the say undo, not just dangling.

Assuming that works, a three person exercise with the say undo exercise on the move, both ukes varying the distance nage has to travel to them - adds a bit of stress to the test

Robert Rumpf

07-19-2006, 12:07 PM

Mike Sigman - your posts (on several threads) here have been very helpful in terms of explaining what you're interested in, in no uncertain terms. I now understand better the comments you made about my comments being tangential to what you believe is the essence of the concept (and consequently, unhelpful).

I suppose I could have done research or understood what you meant better from your responses, but I can be a bit dense. Thanks for continuing to post.

That said, let me ask you a different question... What do you think about the available literature out there on this subject? Is it helpful or accurate in terms of useful exercises and concepts?

Two examples that come to mind are:
Ki in Daily Life, by Koichi Tohei
Ki in Aikido: A Sampler of Ki Exercises, by C. M. Shifflett

Do you have anything that you could recommend as being interesting or insightful from the Chinese side of things (or at least things not in mainstream Aikido, which is where my interests have been)?

Videos would count too..

Thanks,
Rob

Mike Sigman

07-19-2006, 12:31 PM

That said, let me ask you a different question... What do you think about the available literature out there on this subject? Is it helpful or accurate in terms of useful exercises and concepts?

Two examples that come to mind are:
Ki in Daily Life, by Koichi Tohei
Ki in Aikido: A Sampler of Ki Exercises, by C. M. Shifflett Well, I've read (in the past) all the Tohei stuff I could get my hands on and, to be frank, I don't think it tells you how to do much. Just as a simple example, the essence of "breathing to the dantien" is to gradually build up the "pressure", etc., in the abdominal area (I'm speaking generally to make a point). If that point is not made, all the talk about "breathe the Ki of the Universe to your One Point" is off the topic or even misleading. Constantly, Tohei stays, in my opinion, on the unproductive or on the self-aggrandizing. I wouldn't recommend his books, even though I looked with the greatest positive hopes for years at his stuff.

I bought one of Carol Shifflett's books and I think they're nice books and that she's a good person. But just copying exercises without knowing how to arrange the mind and forces and pressures won't lead anywhere. It's like "doing a Taiji form" and expecting it to produce dramatic results in terms of self-defence, health, whatever. It won't happen. The secret is in how to manipulate the internal forces in the body and that's what "Ki exercises" are supposed to do, as well. It's always a dead end to "learn a form" or "learn an exercise" without having been shown how the body forces and pressures are manipulated inside. A form or an exercise is not any more effective than chanting some magical incantation, no matter how many times you do it.... *unless* you know how to manipulate the forces, etc. Do you have anything that you could recommend as being interesting or insightful from the Chinese side of things (or at least things not in mainstream Aikido, which is where my interests have been)?
It's one of those weird situations where most of the good books and videos that contain any good knowledge (and there are very few of those, in relation to the Ki stuff) don't do you any good unless you already have some knowledge. The good thing is that the basic principles of the ki and jin/kokyu stuff is the same throughout all the Asian martial arts, for all practical purposes. So your opportunities t