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Nick P.
07-06-2006, 07:42 PM
...or there is this way of teaching
1. Turn speakers up really loud
2. set your faces to stunned

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr-1zNePZhI&search=chiba%20sensei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo5Na1x6sAc&search=chiba%20sensei

<face swelling up> I'mm thorry Thenthey, wath that omothe or utha?

DonMagee
07-06-2006, 07:52 PM
Letting someone hit you seems very silly to me. If you intend to strike me, I intend to defend.

Nick P.
07-06-2006, 08:04 PM
Don,
It seems silly to me too, but there might <might> be some useful points that were trying to be "shared" with uke, or general principles...
***NOTE: I HAVE NO LINK WITH, NOR PRETEND TO UNDERSTAND, HOW CHIBA SENSEI TEACHES.***
1. Don't leave yourself open as the attacker. Why? See slapping video.
2. Atemi can be very useful. How? See slapping video.
3. Ma-ai (sp?) is very important for both partners. Again, refer to video.

It does beg the question; who was the attacker in this case?

khammack
07-07-2006, 12:10 AM
Letting someone hit you seems very silly to me. If you intend to strike me, I intend to defend.

I joined an Aikido club 9 months ago, and we have a teacher who will slap you in the face if you leave your face exposed (via bad positioning for example). He has a karate background, so I guess that informs his aikido as far as atemi openings.

At first, I thought he was messing with me personally and it kind of ticked me off. But now that I've known him long enough to know that he isn't a malicious sort, I actually really appreciate it. I have a judo background, so I am not used to dealing with strikes or thinking about when I'm open for one or not. Most of the time now I know how to cover myself with posture or distance, but if I don't....every once in a while he lets me know. ;)

Also, he doesn't slap that hard.

-kev

mjchip
07-07-2006, 12:12 AM
Chiba Sensei is my teacher's teacher and thus we follow him down the path....

In our unwritten "training agreement" uke's responsibility is to attack sincerely and to maintain proper connection to nage in order to best absorb / neutralize the counter (which includes but is not limited to the strike to the carotid complex in this case). I'd say that this is pretty typical intent for us especially at the higher level kyu ranks and up.

That said, if I'm getting hit that hard I would consider there to be much room for improvement in my ukemi.

Respectfully,

Mark

philipsmith
07-07-2006, 02:13 AM
Don,
It seems silly to me too, but there might <might> be some useful points that were trying to be "shared" with uke, or general principles...
***NOTE: I HAVE NO LINK WITH, NOR PRETEND TO UNDERSTAND, HOW CHIBA SENSEI TEACHES.***
1. Don't leave yourself open as the attacker. Why? See slapping video.
2. Atemi can be very useful. How? See slapping video.
3. Ma-ai (sp?) is very important for both partners. Again, refer to video.

It does beg the question; who was the attacker in this case?


Although I agree with the above comments complying isnt as easy as it sounds. Having been on the end of senseis technique quite a few times I can tell you its near impossible; especially when training is "going well" and martial intent is expressed on both sides; or when it is not going well and sensei wants to make a point.

BUT thats why I'm so fond of him and his Aikido, the sincerity, intent and sheer physical power.

da2el.ni4na
07-07-2006, 08:22 AM
What do folks think of uke's blocking/thwarting (as opposed to getting out of the way/reacting as if it were the first time, a surprise) atemi because they know it is coming as one part of the form? Is it explicitly addressed? Or is the thinking, "uke is always right"?

Ron Tisdale
07-07-2006, 08:42 AM
Hi Daniel,

The times I've had this type of waza done with me during jiyu waza or randori, there was no opportunity for me to block it, evade it, or anything else but take the ukemi. Shite's initial movement created kuzushi, the atemi wasn't destructive, it just put the icing on the cake to direct the movement of my ukemi. Teachers of Chiba Sensei's quality don't have to hammer you with that strike...they already have your balance.

I recently rediscovered this with a 4th dan where I train. Each time I popped up from the previous throw, he was already throwing me again. :) It was beautiful. Some of the best feeling yet hardest throws I've ever felt. And I was never hurt.

Best,
Ron

gdandscompserv
07-07-2006, 09:55 AM
I recently rediscovered this with a 4th dan where I train. Each time I popped up from the previous throw, he was already throwing me again. :) It was beautiful. Some of the best feeling yet hardest throws I've ever felt. And I was never hurt.

Best,
Ron
and oh how magnificent that feeling. i remember being called upon by sensei to be uke, and how honored i always felt. i knew it was going to hurt a bit as his Aikido is very powerful, but i also knew that he would not injure me.
words cannot express...it's been years since i felt his Aikido and i miss him terribly. since returning from Okinawa i have studied under many sensei's but have only rarely "felt" Aikido as i "felt" it from Yamaguchi Sensei.

Mark Freeman
07-07-2006, 10:07 AM
Teachers of Chiba Sensei's quality don't have to hammer you with that strike...they already have your balance.

Then why the slap? if he already has ukes balance, the throw is happening already, the slap is an uneccessary addition ( a similar effect can be had by just missing the face which moves the uke's mind), methinks he just like's hitting people :D

regards

Mark

da2el.ni4na
07-07-2006, 10:35 AM
or randori, there was no opportunity for me to block it, evade it, or anything else but take the ukemi.

Ron,
Thanks for replying. I meant my question with respect to the more commonly encountered situations - not of practicing with high level people, but with people who you do have those opportunities to block, etc.
Perhaps an extension to my original question would be, do you personally, or does your dojo regard thwarting pre-decided atemi differently with respect to people of different levels?
Dan

mjchip
07-07-2006, 10:38 AM
Then why the slap? if he already has ukes balance, the throw is happening already, the slap is an uneccessary addition ( a similar effect can be had by just missing the face which moves the uke's mind), methinks he just like's hitting people :D

regards

Mark

No to pick nits but it shouldn't be a slap but rather a strike with tegatana (or palm, fist, etc.).

The purposes of the strike are numerous. In doing the form, the strike is there for nage to practice his/her atemi and for uke to practice moving his/her body to effectively absorb/neutralize the strike. I find that if nage or uke for that matter fails to exercise proper intent during atemi waza(power, focus, etc.) the reaction of the partner tends to get very sloppy.

With regards to your statement above "( a similar effect can be had by just missing the face which moves the uke's mind)" I respond that if you are sure that you aren't going to be hit, your mind won't be moved at all.

Respectfully,

Mark

mjchip
07-07-2006, 10:42 AM
What do folks think of uke's blocking/thwarting (as opposed to getting out of the way/reacting as if it were the first time, a surprise) atemi because they know it is coming as one part of the form? Is it explicitly addressed? Or is the thinking, "uke is always right"?

In my humble opinion, if you aren't doing predetermined kata then any reaction as long as it makes martial sense is okay. So, slipping/parrying/countering would be fine in complete freestyle or in practical application as long as these reactions didn't expose further openings in your defenses.

Respectfully,

Mark

Ron Tisdale
07-07-2006, 11:14 AM
Ron,
Perhaps an extension to my original question would be, do you personally, or does your dojo regard thwarting pre-decided atemi differently with respect to people of different levels?
Dan

No. Many of our kihon waza have atemi, and there are usually specific blocks that uke uses to protect themselves. In the case of the waza shown above, the tegatana strike (not a slap by any means) comes during or just after the initial kuzushi. I have been in a position to block it or dodge when training with someone of my level or less. But I usually don't, because I am doing aikido, and not fighting, so I just take the ukemi, unless someone asks me to check their accuracy or placement or something. I've asked that of my own partners (both junior and senior).

Now, if someone actually hurt me once or twice with the strike....that would be different. But my partners show control...so it's all good.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
07-07-2006, 11:28 AM
Then why the slap? if he already has uke's balance, the throw is happening already, the slap is an unnecessary addition ( a similar effect can be had by just missing the face which moves the uke's mind), methinks he just like's hitting people :D

regards

Mark
As others have said, it isn't a slap. In the higher ranked folks I've trained with, it's as much a cut as a strike.

I have to wonder a little bit sometimes at how aikidoka (myself included) view kuzushi. Sometimes it seems like we think kuzushi is a one time event...that once it happens, it's magically maintained. It often isn't. And there are different levels of kuzushi. So I may make a sharp, focused movement to the side and forward, taking uke's balance to their rear right corner, but not be able to throw with that movement alone due to other considerations (uke has really good capability to adjust and regain balance, relative length of arms and legs and how that affects ma ai, etc). So a natural extension of the waza is to combine a cut with the body movement for a more realistic throw.

This type of cutting technique is often favored for self defense situations, where you have a resistant opponent rather than a compliant uke. You can combine:

1) moving from your current position to protect yourself from the follow up attack and someone behind you,

2) break balance, strike and throw in one or two movements

3) prevent the attacker from attacking again in multiple opponent situations (striking the carotid, while not a guarantee, is quite good at discouraging subsequent attacks).

Minimum 3 levels of protection...probably could count that as more. Good Silat. ;)

Just my opinion though...others may do or think differently.

Best,
Ron

Don_Modesto
07-07-2006, 01:22 PM
Re: Slapping

Why was UKE attacking with one hand dead?

James Kelly
07-07-2006, 01:26 PM
Letting someone hit you seems very silly to me. If you intend to strike me, I intend to defend.having been 'slapped' a few times by Chiba Sensei let me say that if you can give a committed attack and then have time to block that strike, you're a better uke than i. in my case (and that of many others) there isn't a lot you can do about it other than not attacking in the first place.

da2el.ni4na
07-07-2006, 01:26 PM
In my humble opinion, if you aren't doing predetermined kata then...

Mark, what about atemi in predetermined kata?
Dan

MM
07-07-2006, 01:32 PM
I have to wonder a little bit sometimes at how aikidoka (myself included) view kuzushi. Sometimes it seems like we think kuzushi is a one time event...that once it happens, it's magically maintained. It often isn't.


Yes, I agree. I learned using three words borrowed from judo: kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake. Kuzushi is the most important (least for me where I am at now) because if you don't have it, you don't have the other two. So, you have balance, then you have being in the right place at the right time or the "fit", and finally the end of the technique or the "throw".

But, if you lose kuzushi, it ripples through and you lose it all. You can have tsukuri, but if you still don't have kuzushi, it won't do you any good.

For example, in iriminage, when you gain kuzushi at the start, you still have to maintain it as you are turning around and uke is running around you. Once you start your movement back the other direction and uke starts to regain his posture and balance, you must keep kuzushi. If not, uke regains posture, balance, and strength. You have to maintain kuzushi until and through tsukuri. If you've kept both, then kake should just happen. :)

Mark

mjchip
07-07-2006, 01:33 PM
Mark, what about atemi in predetermined kata?
Dan

In the "kata" that we practice, most every element of it is predetermined. In other words, if the form calls for uke to block a counter strike by nage then he/she should do so. There usually isn't much room for improvisation in the basic forms.

Mark

Ron Tisdale
07-07-2006, 01:41 PM
I'm not Mark, but in predetermined kata, we usually won't hit our uke, or at least, not hard. ;) It's simply a matter of control. Now, accidents do happen. And of course, the way uke attacks sometimes causes issues. I've had brown belts so determined to crush me with their yokomen that even with me using an atemi, they bascally were tackling my entire upper body. I asked an instructor what I was doing wrong. He smiled and said 'pop him once'. So I did. End of problem.

Another really strong guy decided to really charge and grab hard with katate mochi/dori. This was kihon training, and for some stupid reason, my mind wasn't as aware as it should have been. When I felt this really hard, live grab and someone weighing a good bit more than I was on the end of my wrist, I reacted without thinking or complete control...break the balance and pop in the mouth with the atemi. "Ooops...so sorry...uh, perhaps you should grab at the speed you can react to the atemi. Not to mention the fact that I should have better control." Bow and continue training. Been popped like that a few times myself.

Best,
Ron (hey, nobody is perfect...Maybe Chiba Sensei was having a bad day...)

mjchip
07-07-2006, 01:42 PM
Re: Slapping

Why was UKE attacking with one hand dead?

If you are referring to why he attacked with the lead tegatana and did not block the counter with the trailing forearm I respond simply this is how "we" do that basic form. We do not block but rather take the opportunity to learn how to move our bodies to neutralize the counter strike.

However, once folks learn how to efficiently neutralize this type of counter through body movement, they can choose to add a block/parry for added insurance.

Respectfully,

Mark

da2el.ni4na
07-07-2006, 01:48 PM
There usually isn't much room for improvisation in the basic forms.


Mark, I'm inclined to agree with your statement above. Instead of asking a question that I know will lead me back to much covered territory, I'd just like to share my context of curiosity.

I've encountered a fair number of ukes who seem preoccupied with protecting themselves, perhaps because of a competitive mentality or perhaps because of a more or less unpleasant or traumatic history. Such ukes never fully attack - some so much so that it's hard even to have a shallow relationship and go through the motions.

I think that "protecting yourself" sounds very rational and is very valued in this culture that it can insidiously become incorporated into one's basic thinking regarding aikido practice. (I say "insidiously" to mean "bad". This is not saying that every single form of "protecting yourself" is bad.)

mjchip
07-07-2006, 02:50 PM
Mark, I'm inclined to agree with your statement above. Instead of asking a question that I know will lead me back to much covered territory, I'd just like to share my context of curiosity.

I've encountered a fair number of ukes who seem preoccupied with protecting themselves, perhaps because of a competitive mentality or perhaps because of a more or less unpleasant or traumatic history. Such ukes never fully attack - some so much so that it's hard even to have a shallow relationship and go through the motions.

I think that "protecting yourself" sounds very rational and is very valued in this culture that it can insidiously become incorporated into one's basic thinking regarding aikido practice. (I say "insidiously" to mean "bad". This is not saying that every single form of "protecting yourself" is bad.)

Daniel,

We are of like mind and I am in general agreement with the basic statement you are making but would like to offer some of my thoughts triggered by your post above:

1. there are ways in which one may attempt to protect oneself which may feel (to the untrained person) effective but may not be at all. In other words, the action may create other potentially more dangerous openings (suki).

2. in order for uke's practice to be proper (in my opinion), he/she must commit fully to the attack and as a result be willing to completely give up their center as nage takes it and neutralizes uke's power

3. Having "shallow [martial] relationships (encounters)" or simply "going through the motions" is not what I consider to be worthwhile training. I strongly believe that we should strive to treat each iteration of each form as if it were the last action we perform on earth. As my teacher explained to me this is the basis of "Ichi go, ichi e".

4. I would venture to say that learning to cope with "unpleasant or traumatic" historical experiences that resurface through budo practice is an important part of self cultivation I'm seeking.

Best,

Mark

NagaBaba
07-07-2006, 08:13 PM
Very interesting discussion, thank you.
Can't add much to Mark comments. One aspect of practice with shihans like Chiba sensei is they are using some teaching methods that may be misunderstood by beginners. Still, 20 years later, with enough training, one may start not only understand reasons behind such teaching, but even use it himself in his own pedagogical approach.

Chiba sensei teaching forces physically students to develop and maintain physical and non-physical connection whole training. In the same time it forces physically students to develop and maintain physical and non-physical leading whole training. That can be achieved cos uke is active in every second and not only playing role of a ‘bag for throwing’.

It is very unique result in aikido world.

dps
07-07-2006, 09:34 PM
The uke is:

1. Uke who has not trained with Chiba Sensei and does not know to protect himself from atemi, twice.
2. Uke who has trained with Chiba Sensei and forgot to protect himself from atemi, twice.
3. Uke who has trained with Chiba Sensei and that is the way they do it, twice.

By the way, when you watch the video clips, can't you just feel the love, peace, and harmony. ;)

dps
07-07-2006, 09:56 PM
By the way, when you watch the video clips, can't you just feel the love, peace, and harmony. ;)By the way, when you watch the video clips, can't you just feel the love, peace, and harmony,twice. ;)

Mark Freeman
07-08-2006, 03:59 AM
No to pick nits but it shouldn't be a slap but rather a strike with tegatana (or palm, fist, etc.).

The purposes of the strike are numerous. In doing the form, the strike is there for nage to practice his/her atemi and for uke to practice moving his/her body to effectively absorb/neutralize the strike. I find that if nage or uke for that matter fails to exercise proper intent during atemi waza(power, focus, etc.) the reaction of the partner tends to get very sloppy.

With regards to your statement above "( a similar effect can be had by just missing the face which moves the uke's mind)" I respond that if you are sure that you aren't going to be hit, your mind won't be moved at all.

Respectfully,

Mark

Regarding your nits to be picked, it may not supposed to be a slap but it certainly looks and sounds like one ;)

I understand the purpose of atemi, but thanks for your clarification.

I agree that if you know that you are not going to be hit, your mind won't be moved at all.
That is not what I was describing. If an atemi to the face is made with the correct intent, focus, body alignment, and speed, there is no reason for the uke not to suspect that they are going to get struck. They have a choice, execute good ukemi ( get out of the way), defend by blocking the strike ( may or may not be succesfull ) or taking the strike to the face ( a bit of a suspect strategy in my mind ). Now if the atemi is as I described, it does not have to make contact to be effective, particularly as mentioned in Ron's post, uke has already had his balance taken, if uke doesn't feel the full intent of the atemi, then the atemi is not delivered well. The mind moves the body, move the mind and the body follows. Working directly on the body is one level, working on the mind is another.

regards,

Mark

Mark Freeman
07-08-2006, 04:34 AM
As others have said, it isn't a slap. In the higher ranked folks I've trained with, it's as much a cut as a strike.

I have to wonder a little bit sometimes at how aikidoka (myself included) view kuzushi. Sometimes it seems like we think kuzushi is a one time event...that once it happens, it's magically maintained. It often isn't. And there are different levels of kuzushi. So I may make a sharp, focused movement to the side and forward, taking uke's balance to their rear right corner, but not be able to throw with that movement alone due to other considerations (uke has really good capability to adjust and regain balance, relative length of arms and legs and how that affects ma ai, etc). So a natural extension of the waza is to combine a cut with the body movement for a more realistic throw.

This type of cutting technique is often favored for self defense situations, where you have a resistant opponent rather than a compliant uke. You can combine:

1) moving from your current position to protect yourself from the follow up attack and someone behind you,

2) break balance, strike and throw in one or two movements

3) prevent the attacker from attacking again in multiple opponent situations (striking the carotid, while not a guarantee, is quite good at discouraging subsequent attacks).

Minimum 3 levels of protection...probably could count that as more. Good Silat. ;)

Just my opinion though...others may do or think differently.

Best,
Ron

A couple of points Ron,

I know that people are saying it is not a slap, but it sure looks and sounds like one on the video, are my tired old eyes and ears deceiving me, maybe ;) Also uke's trailing arm looks 'dead' to me it does not seem to be 'engaged' at all, but again I may not be seeing it as others do. The 'strike' is delivered very fast so defence against it would probably be futile unless uke was anticipating a strike ( maybe he should be? )

I like your points on kuzushi, thanks. I agree that 'balance breaking' must be maintained throughout a technique, as a good uke is ( or should be ) doing their best to maintain their own balance all the time. At least that's what I see my role as uke to be, as I can only counter, or find the points to counter if I maintain balance. Trying to counter without balance is counterproductive ( please excuse the lame pun ;)).

As for the difference between resistant or compliant uke, from a nage point of view, they are both 'throwable', just different approaches for each are required. Nage's aim should be the same, harmonisation with uke, leading to a throw or pin with the minimum of fuss or bother. A too compliant uke provides little challenge, a too resistant uke can be a danger to themselves as they restrict their own flexibility. Finding the perfect line between the two is why we practice, no?

regards,

Mark

mjchip
07-08-2006, 11:30 AM
Below is some text printed on Aikido Journal regarding an interview by Kazuo Chiba Sensei:

"In creating a path that advances personal development and harmony, aikido tends to reject the destructiveness and inhumanity that are essential aspects of most martial arts. But inherent in this rejection is the danger of emasculating the art, "killing the bull by straightening the horns," as the Japanese saying goes. With these concerns in mind, Kazuo Chiba suggests that it is through the state of ainuke (mutual preservation) that the harmony, co-existence, and co-prosperity sought within aikido may be found. For that reason he feels that severe training involving both a complete meeting between two bodies and spirits and true attacks is necessary."

Personally, this text (especially the last sentence) helps me to understand a little bit of "why" we train with the methods and in the manner that we do (those of us in the Birankai).

Regards,

Mark

buckweatmts
07-08-2006, 12:12 PM
I think you have to take Ukemi for someone like Chiba Sensei to really understand, you really don't know what he is going to do.... I remember an incident where i was asked to do Shomen, i could not help but use my other hand to protect against atemi. That was just instinctive in me. Well somehow, one of his feet found my front leg, and sure, my face was protected, but i was on the ground in an instant, most likely wide-eyed and puzzled, yet unhurt.

It is also funny to me the analysis to these videos. I wonder how many times Sensei would do the same thing from the same attack from the same person say 10 times in a row? You think sometimes we over analize?

Ron Tisdale
07-08-2006, 05:31 PM
Finding the perfect line between the two is why we practice, no?

yes. ;)

You think sometimes we over analize?

And yes again...
Because of the way we train, it is habit for me to strike yokomen while protecting my face with the other hand. This morning in keiko with another group I saw a very good effect of that habit.

Best,
Ron

pezalinski
07-18-2006, 10:10 AM
The 'strike' is delivered very fast so defense against it would probably be futile unless uke was anticipating a strike ( maybe he should be? )

Mark -- you seem to be missing out on one of the points of the video here --- if you control the head, you control the center -- and can more effectively affect the kuzushi. It was a very fast "control," yes, but that is precisely what it was. Call it iriminage, if you please. And if uke blends with the strike, it doesn't quite take his block off. "Uke makes harmony," for real.

I've trained with Chiba Sensei and his students for a number of years, and a slap upside the head is a whole lot nicer to uke than the tegatana to the jugular that usually is applied in this style of irimi... if uke is quick enough to get a hand up to block it, the throw is no less effective. And the ukemi is surprisingly fun. ;)

Ron Tisdale
07-18-2006, 10:41 AM
I saw my teacher do a version of this again this weekend...very nice throw...if the timing is correct, uke doesn't even have to 'blend'... ;)

Best,
Ron

Mark Freeman
07-18-2006, 10:52 AM
Peter,

I'm still not sure what point I seem to be missing. I realise what the strike/slap is intended for, I just question the need for it if the uke is already being lead, seems like a case of over egging the pudding. This discrepency probably comes from the different style of practice. Chiba Sensei obviously knows what he is doing, and does it effectively. My own teacher also. He may make a strike to the head, it would not make contact ,but it sure as hell will move your mind - in the direction you are already being taken. Same outcome, less sting in the face, just as much fun for uke :D

regards,

Mark

Fred Little
07-18-2006, 12:01 PM
In addition to the dead hand question that Don M. raised, it's interesting that no one has pointed out the simple fact that in both of these clips, uke is walking directly into range before bringing shomen-uchi to bear on Chiba Sensei.

Just an observation.

sullivanw
07-18-2006, 03:15 PM
In addition to the dead hand question that Don M. raised, it's interesting that no one has pointed out the simple fact that in both of these clips, uke is walking directly into range before bringing shomen-uchi to bear on Chiba Sensei.

Just an observation.

I think this is an important thing to consider. Granted, I don't have much experience, but it doesn't seem like there was much of a threat from uke. Lack of a threat would leave more openings to be exploited, wouldn't it?

George S. Ledyard
07-18-2006, 07:18 PM
It's simply a matter of control.

Ron,
You know as well as I do that this isn't a "control" issue.
- George

David Orange
07-18-2006, 07:56 PM
who was the attacker in this case?

That is a pure example of aiki.

I asked Mochizuki Sensei about that, in the context of kiai. He said, in essence, that kiai is an attack. Aiki attacks the attack.

There is a big misconception that aiki is purely yielding and sort of accidentally creates techniques. But the real nature is that aiki attacks the ura of kiai.

So uke was the attacker.

Also, unless someone here can say for certain, I rather doubt that that slapping sound is actually Chiba Sensei slapping the uke. That may well be creative editing. That kind of strike could give you permanent neck displacement. I've heard he was vigorous, but I haven't heard of any string of permanently injured ukes from his demos.

David

David Orange
07-18-2006, 08:17 PM
having been 'slapped' a few times by Chiba Sensei let me say that if you can give a committed attack and then have time to block that strike, you're a better uke than i. in my case (and that of many others) there isn't a lot you can do about it other than not attacking in the first place.

Yes, James. I think you'd be a better uke than I, too. There doesn't look like much you can do with that kind of technique. It's good to see Chiba Sensei on video. I had never seen him. I also recently saw Saito Sensei--a clip on AikidoJournal online. He looks like another one you really couldn't resist. I see people doing something like the shape of what Saito sensei does and it doesn't make sense. I see him do it and I realize what those people were imitating. It's a world of difference.

David

David Orange
07-18-2006, 08:43 PM
If you are referring to why he attacked with the lead tegatana and did not block the counter with the trailing forearm I respond simply this is how "we" do that basic form. We do not block but rather take the opportunity to learn how to move our bodies to neutralize the counter strike.

However, once folks learn how to efficiently neutralize this type of counter through body movement, they can choose to add a block/parry for added insurance.

Respectfully,

Mark

That's also a good thing to think about if "uke" is an experienced fighter who keeps both hands up at all times. A kyokushin fighter keeps both knife hands up beside his head as he shuffles toward you. If he hasn't knocked you out with a kick to the head by the time he gets to hand range, he can chop down to the collar bone with either hand or do yokomen with either hand, or a straight punch to the face throat sternum or solar plexus with either hand, all with very little movement or telegraphing or exposing which side he will use. He can also make a slight circle into an uppercut to the gut or chin with either hand, all without committing himself heavily with unreal momentum. Those guys also do some aiki training because Mas Oyama trained in aikijujtsu.

As an aikido man, to face those kinds of attacks (without going on about the kicking aspects) is sobering. My early training was in kyokushin and when I lived at the yoseikan in Shizuoka, I used to use that kind of entry for attacks. They were more used to a shotokan type of attack. When Edgar Kruyning came to the yoseikan, he was fresh from winning Muay Thai bouts in Thailand. He entered in much the same way, though of course, far more effectively than I.

Edgar Kruyning has some excellent books out in Dutch and he now has a new one in English, called All Round Budo. In fact, on the cover, he is showing that strike with the other hand covering the side of his head.

http://www.judo-shop.nl/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=210

This book is in English and comes with a CD with some phenomenal footage from the old yoseikan hombu.

Best wishes,

David

Fred Little
07-19-2006, 09:11 AM
So uke was the attacker.




Somebody should have taught that uke how to deliver an effective attack. On the basis of that clip, I have to conclude that nobody had up to the point the camera was turned on.

FL

Gerry Magee
07-19-2006, 09:52 AM
hey folks

this disscussion is currently going on in martal arts planet under 'martial arts of Aikido', and Sensei coyle who is in the video clip has this to say about it...

"That video of Chiba shihan . I MUST tell this story. Once on a seminar George Girvan a good friend of mine managed to beat me to the punch when Chiba shihan asked for a uke. George attacked and received that omote you just saw, being George he immediately lept up and attacked again, same omote, same slap to the side of the head!! George got up attacked again, same result. Finally Chiba shihan told him to sit back down and came over to me and asked"WHY DOSEN'T HE PROTECT HIS HEAD?"

WHO SAYS THERE ARE NO STRIKES IN AIKIDO?"

hope this helps shed some light.

Ron Tisdale
07-19-2006, 10:41 AM
Now THAT was priceless!...
Thanks,
Ron

Nick P.
07-19-2006, 12:26 PM
Hah! That is a great story!

mjchip
07-19-2006, 02:09 PM
"That video of Chiba shihan . I MUST tell this story. Once on a seminar George Girvan a good friend of mine managed to beat me to the punch when Chiba shihan asked for a uke. George attacked and received that omote you just saw, being George he immediately lept up and attacked again, same omote, same slap to the side of the head!! George got up attacked again, same result. Finally Chiba shihan told him to sit back down and came over to me and asked"WHY DOSEN'T HE PROTECT HIS HEAD?"

WHO SAYS THERE ARE NO STRIKES IN AIKIDO?"

hope this helps shed some light.

That's priceless. :) I have a similar story. Back in the late 90's at a weapons camp in Boston, Chiba Sensei called me up to take ukemi during a jyo basics demonstration. He motioned for me to attack with kesa and I did. IIRC, he did kaete uchi otoshi where uchi jyo ends up cutting uke jyo's front hand after revolving his jyo. Of course in front of a hundred people I let go with the wrong hand and my front hand got tagged (people cringed). He said "Mark, move your hand." and motioned for me to attack again. I attacked again and once more I let go with the wrong hand and got smacked in the front hand. He gave me the look and said "Mark, don't let me hit your hand. Do you understand?" I replied "Yes sensei." Sure enough I got cracked again because I still couldn't do it right (even though I totally knew better). Finally he said, "Mark, in Japan we have saying: If you want to kill general you must first kill horse." He then pointed to his front hand and said "Your horse is DEAD! Next time I go right for general!" He then asked, "Do you know where general is?" and pointed to his trachea and smirked as he motioned for me to attack again. My BP shot up about 100pts. and I attacked for the final time.......and wouldn't you know it? I took proper ukemi and my general lived to train another day. This was a great learning experience for me!

Warmest regards,

Mark Chiappetta

Ron Tisdale
07-19-2006, 02:25 PM
OUCH! Sometimes things just don't work until they have to.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
07-19-2006, 02:26 PM
Ron,
You know as well as I do that this isn't a "control" issue.
- George

Hi George. Ok, I've heard the stories...but given the extra background, I'd still post the same things...but hey, I'm kinda thick...

Best,
Ron ;)

Fred Little
07-19-2006, 05:42 PM
hey folks

this disscussion is currently going on in martal arts planet under 'martial arts of Aikido', and Sensei coyle who is in the video clip has this to say about it...

"That video of Chiba shihan . I MUST tell this story. Once on a seminar George Girvan a good friend of mine managed to beat me to the punch when Chiba shihan asked for a uke. George attacked and received that omote you just saw, being George he immediately lept up and attacked again, same omote, same slap to the side of the head!! George got up attacked again, same result. Finally Chiba shihan told him to sit back down and came over to me and asked"WHY DOSEN'T HE PROTECT HIS HEAD?"


Priceless.

Instruction by aversion therapy.

The problem with aversion therapy is the ones who like getting smacked.

FL

Ron Tisdale
07-20-2006, 06:14 AM
Hmm, I always thought the real problem with aversion therapy was the ones who like doing the smacking...

Remember that Simpsons episode where the whole family is sitting in a circle shocking each other with electrodes???

Best,
Ron

Mark Freeman
07-20-2006, 06:22 AM
Hmm, I always thought the real problem with aversion therapy was the ones who like doing the smacking...

Me too

Remember that Simpsons episode where the whole family is sitting in a circle shocking each other with electrodes???

Ah the Simpsons, don't you just love em! :D

regards,

Mark

Fred Little
07-20-2006, 09:06 AM
Hmm, I always thought the real problem with aversion therapy was the ones who like doing the smacking...

Remember that Simpsons episode where the whole family is sitting in a circle shocking each other with electrodes???

Best,
Ron

OMG, reasoned analysis, historical perspective, and humor, all in less than 50 words!

Tisdale is dangerous. Very dangerous. Clearly, he must be stopped.

Get Langley on the phone, immediately.

FL

Ron Tisdale
07-20-2006, 09:12 AM
;) I don't know what to say...

Best,
Ron (looking forward to getting tossed by you again...)

David Humm
07-20-2006, 04:09 PM
;) I don't know what to say...

Best,
Ron (looking forward to getting tossed by you again...)Ron.. Rephrase that.. "tossed" means something entirely different in the UK and you wouldn't want another man doing the "tossing".. if you get my drift.

Ron Tisdale
07-21-2006, 06:45 AM
Ewwwwwww.....

Yeah, there is a prison meaning that's similar. But I haven't spent any time in any prisons...you? ;)

**Thrown**, yeah, **thrown** by you...

Best,
Ron ;)

gdandscompserv
07-21-2006, 08:32 AM
Ron.. Rephrase that.. "tossed" means something entirely different in the UK and you wouldn't want another man doing the "tossing".. if you get my drift.
soo...ya'all don't have "tossed" salads over there?

Ron Tisdale
07-21-2006, 08:34 AM
Cough...that would be the prison reference.

B,
R