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mj
08-05-2001, 07:43 PM
'Do you think the concept of "ki" and how to "use" it in aikido can be taught without referring to it?'

I answered yes to this poll. Perhaps a year ago I would have said no.
While practising at a new club, lately, I have realised that...not only can Ki be taught without reference, but so can Zanshin and Ma-ai. I think that it takes us pattern seeking humans a lot longer, though. We are really more stupid than we give ourselves credit for :rolleyes:.
(Yes, that includes me... at the top of the list.)

mj
08-05-2001, 07:44 PM
Don't even think about it, Jim23....

Jim23
08-06-2001, 02:06 PM
Good one!

After reading your post, I said to myself "Self ...".

Anyway ... I scrolled down and there it was - you were one step ahead of me.

Jim23

Suru
08-06-2001, 02:14 PM
Those closed-ended (yes/no) questions are always very difficult for me to answer. It's good that we can talk about it on the forum.

I think talking about ki constantly is not good, but I think it's good to discuss it some. Ki is a natural energy and is inherent in all creatures. We've always known about it, but it's nourishing to be reminded of it if we have forgotten.

Drew

Jay
08-06-2001, 07:15 PM
I answered no in the poll, and here is the reason.

I beleive that it is important to think of Ki almost as a supernatural force, not in a "science fiction" sense, but in a spiritual sense. The more Ki is discussed in a rational sense, the more connection is lost with the spiritual side of things. Which is not to say that everything should be spiritual, but where is the enjoyment in living in a world where everything can be presented in mechanical terms? Personally I think that using the term Ki instead of energy, or any similar term, preserves some of the mystery that intrigues me.

Jay

mj
08-06-2001, 08:13 PM
Hi Jay.
Why should spiritual (Ki) not be rational (Ki)?
It would be unfair to call Ki 'supernatural' when it can be shown in the 'natural' world. It doesn't lose any of its mystery, you just open the door...
Learning about, or refining, Ki, is perhaps a mystery, because you have no idea where you will be led (hehe), but that's not to say that it is outside the natural world. It isn't to say that Ki is diminished by our recognition of it, either.
The same can be said of any true principle. Acknowledging the existence does not mean that we understand the totallity of the journey it takes us on.

Jim23
08-06-2001, 10:10 PM
Mark,

Have you been meditating again man? You sound so smart.

How do you feel about internet ki?

(Jim ducks below Mark's wild uppercut.)

Jim23

Jay
08-07-2001, 09:45 AM
Mark-

I agree with what you're saying, and I understand that ki is natural, as well as spiritual. On the other hand I also understand that most people are quick to dismiss the spiritual side of life. Sadly we need little help observing and understanding the power of natural force as we experience it every day, but as far as matters of the spirit go most of us(myself included) walk blind. It is for this reason that I think the spiritual side of ki should be more emphasized than the natural side. I suppose this just all leads up to the fact that I responded to the poll question incorrectly. I should have answered yes, but even though I know it can be taught without the word Ki, I just don't think that it should be. Of course this is just my own 2 cents, whatever works for the individuals involved is in the end the right way to teach any given subject matter. Oh and on a completley unrelated note; I think this subject is a little deep for my 1st and 2nd posts :)

Jay

Erik
08-07-2001, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Jay
I beleive that it is important to think of Ki almost as a supernatural force, not in a "science fiction" sense, but in a spiritual sense. The more Ki is discussed in a rational sense, the more connection is lost with the spiritual side of things. Which is not to say that everything should be spiritual, but where is the enjoyment in living in a world where everything can be presented in mechanical terms? Personally I think that using the term Ki instead of energy, or any similar term, preserves some of the mystery that intrigues me.

I agree with the enjoyment/mechanical comments and hear what you are saying. The problem I see is that the mystery also creates problems and fictions such as O'Sensei dodging bullets (Tohei in his own way as well), disappearing/reappearing Sensei, beams of light emanating from people's heads (sans hallucinogens) and soon you have truckloads of deshi on a magical mystery tour. Don't we get enough of this when someone see's the likeness of the Virgin Mary in a jar of mayonaise?

Seriously, I think using ki in this manner cheapens our product something fierce. It doesn't add to the mystery to provide a half-baked answer that a non-creative 3-year old could think up, it detracts from it. What I think you are missing is that looking at ki in a spiritual sense is really more of an answer than a question. The real mystery is figuring out how something was done and questioning that without a preconcieved answer such as ki.

Sadly we need little help observing and understanding the power of natural force as we experience it every day, but as far as matters of the spirit go most of us(myself included) walk blind.

Yes, and that's the joy and mystery of it. Everyone wants to spoon feed you answers. God created the Earth in 6 days, Zeus hurling thunderbolts, Aliens coming to take us away are all attempts at providing answers and damn simple one's when you really think about it. Ki, as it's so often used, falls into exactly the same category.

Erik steps down from the podium.

Steve Speicher
08-07-2001, 04:06 PM
So, have you had your yummy helping of ki today?

BC
08-09-2001, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by mj
'Do you think the concept of "ki" and how to "use" it in aikido can be taught without referring to it?'

I think yes. In the dojo where I practice, the term is rarely brought up or mentioned, except in jokes. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I heard "ki" mentioned during class. Even so, the instructors and seniors in the dojo are a constant reminder that they are able to apply effective techniques (and thus utilize "ki") on a daily basis.

mj
08-09-2001, 06:55 PM
Hi BC, thanks.
Now, do you think it has the same power?
Be honest, people.
Knowing and not knowing?
Is there a spoon?