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Guilty Spark
06-25-2006, 03:15 PM
I've tried to find my own answer with the search function but I'm not comming across it. Hopefully I didn't miss it and have to eat egg.

Could someone tell me what the difference between Yoshinkan Aikido and Aikikai Aikido is?

Different belts, different views, different techniques etc.. or something else?
Where are they different and where are they the same?
(Hopefully it isn't a touchy subject)


Cheers

Grant

Don_Modesto
06-25-2006, 04:22 PM
I've tried to find my own answer with the search function but I'm not comming across it. Hopefully I didn't miss it and have to eat egg.

Could someone tell me what the difference between Yoshinkan Aikido and Aikikai Aikido is?

Different belts, different views, different techniques etc.. or something else?
Where are they different and where are they the same?
(Hopefully it isn't a touchy subject)


Cheers

Grant

Yeah. I'm quick to direct folks to it, but I'll admit that the search functions on these boards are often sort of lackluster. Hope this helps:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17385

xuzen
06-25-2006, 11:35 PM
Could someone tell me what the difference between Yoshinkan Aikido and Aikikai Aikido is?

Grant,
I will only do this for you, since you are still a noob.

Differences (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7069)

Boon.

batemanb
06-26-2006, 01:14 AM
The differences are everything..........and nothing. In my limited exposure to Yoshinkan the main difference is the training methodology and some of the technique names. Other than that, they pretty much do the same thing I did at my old Aikikai club.


rgds

Bryan

TigerJK
06-26-2006, 02:28 AM
The basic techniques have differences in angle and tension

Also, at the basic level, Yoshinkan is more squared when facing the opponent.

Training methodology and philosophy are also very different.

But as Shioda said, "Different path up, but same mountain-top."

philipsmith
06-26-2006, 07:06 AM
Agree with Brian. The only difference is really of teaching method (Yoshinkan is more "Kata" like below Shodan), ultimately the techniques are the same.
Interestingly when I began Aikiaki nomenclature was very like that used by Tomiki Sensei (kotemawashi, kote hinari etc) and became more like Yoshinkan (Ikkajo, Sankajo) as time went on.

I know that if when I'm at "multi-style" Aikido seminars I often end up practising with the Yoshinkan guys even though I'm an Aikikai "softy"

Guilty Spark
06-26-2006, 10:45 AM
Awesome guys thanks. (And thanks Xu Wenfung, let the pain commence)

I'm looking at attempting to teach myself while I'm away for half a year. I really don't want to miss out on that training time. I found some buddies in judo willing to let me practice with them which is great (where I'll be returning the favor).

I was planning on using some books I picked up, this site (work project anyone?) and even an aikido computer program. Problem (and reason for my question) is that some of the books and this program teaches aikikai aikido vice the yoshinkan I've been learning. I wasn't sure if mixing the styles would be disastrous or how well they would work together. Sounds like it's doable though.

I DO realize the risks involved regarding learning the wrong or poor techniques but I think I can make it work. I'm quite skilled at unlearning mistakes :)

Any advice comments or opinions would be appreciated of course.

Grant

wayneth
06-26-2006, 10:57 AM
I don't think that there is a real big difference between these two systems of Aikido. They both more or less do the same techniques, except which is probably the biggest stylistic difference is that they perform the techniques a little bit different i.e. Aikikai perform Nikyo Ura on the shoulder, while Yoshinkan perform it almost like holding a sword etc.
Also I find that they both emphasis the same basic principles i.e. Atemi, Tenkan etc. where the only difference is on this is that they teach them on a different level/way (i think?)
Wayne

odudog
06-26-2006, 11:53 AM
It is possible to study from the Aikikai books and program and convert the techniques to the Yoshinkan version. I do just the opposite. The main difference that I notice on my Yoshinkan DVDs are that Yoshinkan tends to move in and "X". A quick example: Tenchinage: I was taught to get off the line then walk straight as I throw uke backwards {if uke is not totally off balance then turn your hips away from uke}, however, I notice the Yoshinkan gets off the line then walks diagonally behind uke throwing him backwards. I've noticed a hip atemi being applied to uke from various techniques due to this "X" movement.

The nikkyo ura version that Aikikai does works great when uke is empty handed but you wouldn't want to do this if he had a knife in his hand, instead, you would have to switch to the Yoshinkan version.

NagaBaba
06-26-2006, 04:01 PM
Awesome guys thanks. (And thanks Xu Wenfung, let the pain commence)

I'm looking at attempting to teach myself while I'm away for half a year. I really don't want to miss out on that training time. I found some buddies in judo willing to let me practice with them which is great (where I'll be returning the favor).

Grant
I think it will be VERY good experience (regardless of aikido style), having judo folks as uke.
Courage!!

Nikopol
09-26-2007, 07:22 PM
Checked out the link to the other thread relating to AIki-elves and came to the conclusion that it was a waste of time if you are looking for a serious answer. I was thinking of eventually starting a blog about this as I have studied both...

But I had a list of little things.

In Yoshinkan, shout Osu!
In AIkikai, never shout Osu.

Yoshinkan: Shite and Uke
Aikikai: Nage and Uke

Yoshinkan: Uke kiais at grab. Shite Kiais at atemi, throw, and pin.
AIkikai, no kiai.

The reason Yoshinkan kiai .. supposed to be to force Kokyu. (breathing)
The reason Aikikai does not kiai ... too busy doing kokyu.

Yoshinkan... "your foot is three inches to the left!"
AIkikai... let your footwork follow your center.

Yoshinkan... "wrong!"
Aikikai... "that will also work.."

Yoshinkan: taking ukemi from Sensei: Itai!
Aikikai: taking ukemi from Sensei: Itai!

Yoshinkan: Hiyaku (flying) ukemi.
Aikikai: Rolling ukemi.

Yoshinkan: Ikkajo, Nikkajo, Sankajo, Yonkajo.
Aikikai: Ikkyo Nikkyo Sankyo Yonkyo Gokyo.

Yoshinkan: No Jo and bokken work at Tokyo Honbu dojo (no room)
Aikikai: No Jo and bokken work at Tokyo Honbu dojo (no room)

Both: Jo and Bokken work according to Sensei's discretion at other dojos.
Both: "work with Jo and Bokken are indespensible to learning Aikido".

Yoshinkan: applys shime with one knee up (knee closest to ukes head)
Aikikai: applies shime with both knees down.

Yoshinkan: always finishes Shihonage on one knee with a finishing Atemi.
Aikikai: will finish Shihonage from a standing position. (with center lowered)

Yoshinkan: call their art "Aikido" in explanations
Aikikai: call their art "Aikido" in explanations

Yoshinkan: Techniques have a 1, and a 2 form
Aikikai: Techniques have an Omote and an Ura form

Yoshinkan will start katatemochi (katatedoei) techniques in Ai hanmi
Aikikai will start katatedori (katatemochi) techniques in gyaku hanmi.

Anaylisis: the superficiality of the techniques causes a new crossover Aikidoka to think he knows nothing, and that the techniques are different.

After more exposure and insight one comes to see that the techniques are the same at heart.

When starting a technique in aihanmi, it is only a step away from gyakuhanmi. Vice-versa.

Training in Aikikai can actually make clear to you the essence of Yoshinkan and vice versa.

It is sort of like reading two texts on the same subject. You get different things, but you also get the same things.

Learn to focus on the essence, it is all Osensei underneath.

Never, never, never shout Osu in an Aikikai dojo.

grondahl
09-27-2007, 03:25 AM
Yoshinkan: Uke kiais at grab. Shite Kiais at atemi, throw, and pin.
AIkikai, no kiai.

The reason Yoshinkan kiai .. supposed to be to force Kokyu. (breathing)
The reason Aikikai does not kiai ... too busy doing kokyu.

Unless your local Aikikai dojo is teaching Iwama style aikido.Then apparantly itīs like Yoshinkan


Yoshinkan... "your foot is three inches to the left!"
AIkikai... let your footwork follow your center.

Yoshinkan... "wrong!"
Aikikai... "that will also work.."

Unless your local Aikikai dojo is teaching Iwama style aikido. Then apparantly itīs like Yoshinkan

Yoshinkan: Hiyaku (flying) ukemi.
Aikikai: Rolling ukemi.

Unless your local Aikikai dojo is teaching Iwama style aikido. Then apparantly itīs like Yoshinkan


Yoshinkan will start katatemochi (katatedoei) techniques in Ai hanmi
Aikikai will start katatedori (katatemochi) techniques in gyaku hanmi.

Unless your local Aikikai dojo is teaching Iwama style aikido. Then you will do basic waza from both both ai hanmi (kosa dori) and gyaku hanmi katatedori

Nikopol
09-27-2007, 10:21 AM
Unless your local Aikikai dojo is teaching Iwama style aikido.Then apparantly itīs like Yoshinkan


I am speaking from experience in Yoshinkan and Aikikai dojos in Japan. There will be differences but those who know what I am trying to say will not keep repeating the same sentance about Iwama style. Sounds like you are 'apparantly' an expert in Iwama.

Apparantly congratulations. :)

aikispike
09-27-2007, 10:34 AM
But I had a list of little things.

.

great list.

OSU
Spike

Steven
09-27-2007, 11:39 AM
Oh come on people. We all know the biggest difference between the Yoshinkai and Aikikai is Spike Kimeda is a whole lot better looking that Don J. Modesto, Szczepan Janczuk or anyone else in the Aikikai for that matter. Well, maybe with the exception of all the fine looking Aiki-Ladies out there.

:-)

:: puts on flame suit ::

Ron Tisdale
09-27-2007, 12:04 PM
Oh common Steven, I look better than Spike! :O

Oh, wait a minute, I'm not Aikikai.... :D

;) B,
R

Walker
09-27-2007, 05:02 PM
Yoshinkan... "wrong!"
Aikikai... "that will also work.."
Bwa ha ha ha! Now that's funny.

Also:
Yoshinkan: Gangsters
Aikikai: Politicians

:D

Keith R Lee
09-27-2007, 09:40 PM
Yoshinkan... "wrong!"
Aikikai... "that will also work.."

Ohhhhh.....funny cause it's true. I got a kick out of that!

Shannon Frye
09-27-2007, 10:21 PM
I asked this same question not too long ago -

Here's the link -

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13174

Christopher Gee
09-28-2007, 12:10 AM
The differences?? Ulimately its the spelling...

YOSHINKAN/AIKIKAI

Regards,

Aikibu
09-28-2007, 12:34 AM
Unless your local Aikikai dojo is teaching Iwama style aikido.Then apparantly itīs like Yoshinkan

Unless your local Aikikai dojo is teaching Iwama style aikido. Then apparantly itīs like Yoshinkan

Unless your local Aikikai dojo is teaching Iwama style aikido. Then apparantly itīs like Yoshinkan

Unless your local Aikikai dojo is teaching Iwama style aikido. Then you will do basic waza from both both ai hanmi (kosa dori) and gyaku hanmi katatedori

Along with Iwama there are many flavors of "Aikikai" Aikido...Thanks Peter for pointing this out.

William Hazen

Nikopol
09-28-2007, 12:35 AM
The differences?? Ulimately its the spelling...

YOSHINKAN/AIKIKAI

Regards,

That is very observant...

KamiKaze_Evolution
09-28-2007, 05:17 AM
Some of Aikikai dojos do spiritual excersice, such as funakogi, furitama, kodotama, chinkon, etc. But whole the Yoshinkan is 0% spiritual, it's very safety for monothiests and evenly i am a monothiest as well. And explainations of "ki" in Yoshinkan and Aikikai are different, "ki" explanation of Yoshinkan is quite simple and it mentioned in Total Aikido book by Gozo Shioda. (Ki is mastery of balance)

Christopher Gee
09-28-2007, 04:21 PM
That is very observant...

No need to be mean..... everyone knows KI IS BEST.... ROAR!

roadster
10-03-2007, 07:52 AM
One wears cute little patches on their GI and the other doesn't?

Tijani1150
10-20-2007, 09:01 PM
another difference is the Kata system Yoshinkan has aka Kihon Dosa I am not sure if Aikikai has anything similar, I think Yoshinkan has 5 or 6 different kinds of Ukemi's..

the way I see it is that in Yoshinkan a technique is broken into 1-3 sometimes 1-4 movements where the same technique in Aikikai is executed in one go, I don't know weather this breakage of a technique is original to Yoshinkan or was introduced to simplify the learning of Aikido to the Tokyo police dept.

Nikopol
10-21-2007, 08:39 PM
another difference is the Kata system Yoshinkan has aka Kihon Dosa I am not sure if Aikikai has anything similar, I think Yoshinkan has 5 or 6 different kinds of Ukemi's..

the way I see it is that in Yoshinkan a technique is broken into 1-3 sometimes 1-4 movements where the same technique in Aikikai is executed in one go, I don't know weather this breakage of a technique is original to Yoshinkan or was introduced to simplify the learning of Aikido to the Tokyo police dept.

I agree,

I also have concluded that the 1-2-3 was introduced to instruct large groups such as the police force, who are more inclined to following commands.

The kihondosa in Aikido are interesting in that they train strength and balance in addition to technique; in AIkikai they would be expressed by the more fluid tenkan excercises.

There comes a point in every Yoshinkan Aikidoka's progress (the beginning of jiyuwaza) when they must discard the 1-2-3, but ideally, from the Yoshinkan perspective, retain the clarity of form and the stance, which is at all times as if the techniques were performed with a sword.

Tijani1150
10-22-2007, 02:24 PM
You know I have found this breakage of a technique to be very helpful in perfecting the execution of that technique, The fine details of 1 2 3 can make all the difference in the final outcome it has helped me so much in Aikikai I also found it very useful in understanding a newly introduced technique which may seem complicated at first so I would just watch how it is done in Yoshinkan and it makes all the difference.

God bless Gozo :triangle:

Ron Tisdale
10-22-2007, 02:27 PM
Yeah...when I started in aikido (aikikai) I used to ask "so where do my feet go???". :D

I felt so at home in the Yosh...they actually told me where my feet go before I asked!

Best,
Ron

Tijani1150
10-22-2007, 02:29 PM
Yeah...when I started in aikido (aikikai) I used to ask "so where do my feet go???". :D

I felt so at home in the Yosh...they actually told me where my feet go before I asked!

Best,
Ron

exactly :D

roadster
10-23-2007, 06:09 AM
Without turning this into a pissing match, I can say that terminology aside, there are more similarities than differences and that we are still practicing Aikido.

It's not apples and oranges; at least not to me. I started in a Yoshinkan dojo and am now in an aikikai affiliated dojo. I have learned well in both dojos.

xuzen
10-23-2007, 08:22 AM
Yoshinkan peepul no smart. Too much head banging from Shihonage. Muss haf sensei shout 1-2-3 to learn.... no kompilikated stuff.

Boon The Yoshi-Orge (TM).

Nikopol
10-23-2007, 08:04 PM
[QUOTE=Erik Jacobson;192191]Without turning this into a pissing match, I can say that terminology aside, there are more similarities than differences and that we are still practicing Aikido.
QUOTE]

I absolutely agree. That is what I am finding. I would think that because we start in a different hanmi that the technique was different but after breaking through the unfamiliarity I would think, "wait a minute..."

These are exactly the same.

I can see that they have just passed through a different filter.
But both filters have been accurate. Like a stereoscopic image, that, when re-integrated by my brain, produces an accurate portrait of the original image (O Sensei.)

KamiKaze_Evolution
10-24-2007, 02:45 PM
Yoshinkan peepul no smart. Too much head banging from Shihonage. Muss haf sensei shout 1-2-3 to learn.... no kompilikated stuff.

Boon The Yoshi-Orge (TM).

Only O Sensei said that "Aiki" is way of life

Nikopol
12-05-2007, 07:41 PM
(Star Wars Opening Theme Music Plays)

Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai
Episode 2 : A New Direction

. Up to this point, we have examined some of the
. differences in detail between Yoshinkan and
. Aikikai, with the agreement that they
. are more alike than different.
. Now I would like to steer
. the discussion in
. a new light,
. that is..

To rephrase the question. Let us focus on another meaning of
the word, 'difference'. As in, "They have had differences
in the past". Meaning disagreements.

If you read the Yoshinkan and AIkikai books published by Kodansha, you find each titled 'Aikido ..' and telling you what Aikido is, basically in agreement on all points but mysteriously neglecting to mention each other in their histories.

In the dojos here in Japan, there seems to be some contempt for Aikikai in Yoshinkan and contempt for Yoshinkan in Aikikai.

So I would like to refresh this thread, focusing on my deepest question at this point, which is,

"Wha happened!?" :blush:

I know that Shioda san was backed to start the Yoshinkan in 1957. What was O Sensei's opinion of this? And what happened? What accidents, what misunderstandings, what historical events contributed to the current estrangement of these two lineages, and what current attitudes and decisions perpetuate this situation?

I am sure many of you Aiki-historians have a wealth of information on this.

Now that I have come to grips with both styles, I have come to see that this is the real question.

Steven
12-05-2007, 08:56 PM
Shioda Sensei's dojo, the Yoshinkan, was opened in 1955, not 1957.

As for what O'Sensei thought, I can only guess he had no issue with it. Stan Pranin has a video that has footage from 1958 that shows Shioda, Saito and Tohei Sensei's all taking ukemi for him.

Nikopol
12-06-2007, 12:21 AM
Shioda Sensei's dojo, the Yoshinkan, was opened in 1955, not 1957.

As for what O'Sensei thought, I can only guess he had no issue with it. Stan Pranin has a video that has footage from 1958 that shows Shioda, Saito and Tohei Sensei's all taking ukemi for him.

Thanks for the correction. Do you know where we could see that video? I would love to have a look. If there is a link could you post it?

Then back to the bigger question. Why the bad blood between Yoshinkan and Aikikai, esp. in Japan...?

Steven
12-06-2007, 10:33 AM
Thanks for the correction. Do you know where we could see that video? I would love to have a look. If there is a link could you post it?

Then back to the bigger question. Why the bad blood between Yoshinkan and Aikikai, esp. in Japan...?

The video is in Aikido Classics 1, "Postwar Greats". Not sure if it is online anywhere.

As for your question regarding the bad blood, I cannot tell you and would question if that is really the case or simply an isolated situation.

Terada Sensei has several folks from the Aikikai who visit him on a regular basis, I met and trained with a couple of them in Japan, and I know Ando Sensei also welcomes aikikai folks. Maybe because they are both aikikai yudansha as well. Can't tell you.

Suppose you should ask the groups in question directly, because anything else would be pure speculation.

Ron Tisdale
12-06-2007, 10:45 AM
To add to which the head of the Yoshinkan is often (always??) present at the head table of the All Japan Aikido Demonstration (Aikikai) each year in the Budokan. Saw Inoue Sensei there myself some years ago.

We peons tend to make too much of these things, I think.

Train where you have fun, leave the politics for the politicians.

Best,
Ron

Nikopol
12-06-2007, 07:04 PM
Such positive notes are most welcome. Thank you both.

I will ask the question to my Sensei when there is a suitable opportunity, such as a nomikai, but I hope to find out as much as possible from my sempai here at Aikiweb as well. :)

Ellis Amdur
12-08-2007, 12:55 PM
In the state of Washington, there are two big universities. University of Washington and Washington State University. They have a big football game once a year. Oddly enough, despite the similarities of names and the fact they are both playing football, they line up on opposite ends of the field, and their fans scream at each other.

Ron Tisdale
12-10-2007, 07:17 AM
Ellis, you crack me up! Good to see you online...

Best,
Ron

Joseph Madden
12-12-2007, 03:10 PM
It should also be mentioned that the "verifiable" deaths due to aikido all took place in schools or universities that were Aikikai and not Yoshinkan. For a group (Japanese specific, mind you) that prides itself on being less brutal, the Aikikai has a lot to answer for (kidding).

OSU

Although I'm sure some deaths occurred due to Yoshinkan.
We cover our tracks better.