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ald1225
06-21-2006, 05:29 PM
Been a while since I visited the boards, it's also been a while since I practiced aikido. I had to move out to a place that's quite far from the dojo and unable to practice :( but I still love Aikido (hopefully that makes sense). Due to this what I do is watch videos online and try it on my shadow uke :( I thought I'd share these videos:

Ljubomir Vračarević
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qD_Xqo5iT3Q

Seagal:
Part 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=XyyFlHhtWoI
Part 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI

I know this is not a hapkido board but I thought some moves are quite interesting/slight variations

Hapkido:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0yZihj8Fi98

aikidoc
06-21-2006, 06:26 PM
Interesting videos. I'm glad the Korean Ukes are flexible-he would have broke every joint in my arm- Ouch.

Mike Hamer
06-21-2006, 06:39 PM
That Hapikdo video was cool I say. With my current knowledge of technique, it all looked very simmilar to Aikido in my eyes.

Tom Johnson
06-21-2006, 06:41 PM
Those two Steven Segal clips are segments of a longer documentary on him....I have it on Ares, it's about 53minutes long or something along those lines. Pretty good film.

ChrisMoses
06-21-2006, 07:39 PM
That Hapikdo video was cool I say. With my current knowledge of technique, it all looked very simmilar to Aikido in my eyes.

I saw a lot of flash, a lot of acrobatics and nearly NO meaningful kuzuhi of any kind. I also saw plenty of highfalls from strikes, that just doesn't happen, not the way they played out in that video. It's great he's that slick at his age, and he's probably bad-ass, but that video doesn't do it for me.

Guilty Spark
06-21-2006, 07:45 PM
I wouldn't try and steal the guys lunch.

When my uke taps once I tend to let go, this guy seems like he is intentionally hurting them no?

Mike Hamer
06-21-2006, 07:49 PM
I saw a lot of flash, a lot of acrobatics and nearly NO meaningful kuzuhi of any kind. I also saw plenty of highfalls from strikes, that just doesn't happen, not the way they played out in that video. It's great he's that slick at his age, and he's probably bad-ass, but that video doesn't do it for me.

I cannot see that far into it

Talon
06-21-2006, 09:42 PM
Another thing that struck me about the Hapkido clip is all the techniques were performed from a very static attack. They guy just stands there. Who grabs your wrist and stands there for you to throw him? Very first basic Aikido is done like that but after that everything is done with movement, pulling uke, pushing uke etc. I thought it was fast and flashy but not very realistic. If our attacks are considered unrealistic, I'm not sure what those would be labeled at. i say you have to have movement and dynamics in all of this to get these techniques to work against someone who is actually intending to hit you,grab, you etc without stopping and just standing there for you to throw/lock him.

My limited experience leads me to this train of thought. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

DonMagee
06-22-2006, 06:24 AM
I wouldn't try and steal the guys lunch.

When my uke taps once I tend to let go, this guy seems like he is intentionally hurting them no?

He could know his uke. I know a lot of guys who tap for effect, not because they are in any pain, they just want you to look good. Plus it's likley a demo and they could of planned it. Its very common to see people do things like that to make the 'show' look better.

Ron Tisdale
06-22-2006, 07:26 AM
I agree with Chris. No real kuzushi. As to the tapping, many locks are quite painful (some styles accentuate the pain compliance portion). And some styles (unlike most aikido) use tapping to show your partner the lock is on, not as an indication to stop the technique. The mainline school of Daito ryu is much the same as regards the tapping.

Best,
Ron

Raspado
06-22-2006, 01:47 PM
Anyone know who the woman is in the 2nd Seagal video? I'm going to post these on a bjj forum and see what they have to say.

Ron Tisdale
06-22-2006, 02:03 PM
I'm going to post these on a bjj forum and see what they have to say.

Uh, just curious...why would we (or you, or anyone) care what they have to say?

Best,
Ron (maybe I missed something here?)

Raspado
06-22-2006, 02:05 PM
It's called being a troll Ron.

Tom Johnson
06-22-2006, 02:09 PM
Anyone know who the woman is in the 2nd Seagal video? I'm going to post these on a bjj forum and see what they have to say.
Debbie Corman - she's introduced in the full length version i have on Ares....1st kyu is her rank (or was when the movie was made)

Raspado
06-22-2006, 02:15 PM
Does she still train?

Ron Tisdale
06-22-2006, 02:21 PM
:) Oh....ok, as long as YOU said it, not me... ;)

Best,
Ron (I doubt anyone doing bjj would deal with 3 attackers by taking them to the ground...they'd just say it's crazy to think you can deal with 3 attackers)

Raspado
06-22-2006, 02:25 PM
Yes--I said it! No they wouldn't. If they were smart, they'd run.

Tom Johnson
06-22-2006, 02:59 PM
Does she still train?
Not sure, i just watched the beginning of the video and looked for her name since you asked. Beyond what she says in the video i have know knowledge of her :)

Guilty Spark
06-22-2006, 03:10 PM
If they were smart, they'd run.

What if they can run faster angery than you can scared :)

I think BJJ is pretty cool, posting aikido videos there will probably get you an ear full (eye full?) of crap talk however.

Roman Kremianski
06-23-2006, 10:21 AM
Why's the guy dressed like a ninja?

Sorry, had to ask. :(

Tom Johnson
06-23-2006, 10:48 AM
Just realied the movie i was talking about earlier was Steven Segal's "Aikido: The Path Beyond Thought"....theres a few links to it on this site, i'm just slow and didnt realize it

aiki03
06-23-2006, 12:09 PM
I The mainline school of Daito ryu is much the same as regards the tapping.
Ron


I do Daito Ryu. We are to tap when when the pain is too much. Not just to signal to our partner the 'lock is on'.

George S. Ledyard
06-23-2006, 12:59 PM
I saw a lot of flash, a lot of acrobatics and nearly NO meaningful kuzuhi of any kind. I also saw plenty of highfalls from strikes, that just doesn't happen, not the way they played out in that video. It's great he's that slick at his age, and he's probably bad-ass, but that video doesn't do it for me.

Hi Chris,
I think you are wrong on this one... I don't quarrel with the thought that the ukemi is purposely dramatic but the techniques shown are mostly leverage techniques in which a lot of pressure is going in to the joints, especially the elbow. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be caught flat footed when one of those got cranked in me. The old guy's arms were completly relaxed, he used his hip power and body weight effectively. Everythrow dropped the partner into a hole which the old guy had created and the majority of the techniques involved stretching out the partner and sliding that extension into the hole created by the leverage against the joints.

Of course, it's a demo. He largely left out the atemi which would help nuetralize the partner's ability to run a counter. They did everything from close to static. It didn't look like the old guy had any trouble moving however. But there wasn't any technique in the demo in which I thought the uke "tanked" for the old man.

It's very interesting to see these "older" versions of our technique. Everything is closer to the body, much more emphasis on leverage against the joints to get the uke moving off his base than what is typically done these days in Aikido.

Ron Tisdale
06-23-2006, 01:41 PM
Good points George. But when I looked closely at the reaction of uke to the waza, I only saw the kind of shudder/stutter step I often associate with that kind of close, static kuzushi once or twice.

Best,
Ron

ChrisMoses
06-23-2006, 03:56 PM
Hi Chris,
I think you are wrong on this one... I don't quarrel with the thought that the ukemi is purposely dramatic but the techniques shown are mostly leverage techniques in which a lot of pressure is going in to the joints, especially the elbow. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be caught flat footed when one of those got cranked in me. The old guy's arms were completly relaxed, he used his hip power and body weight effectively. Everythrow dropped the partner into a hole which the old guy had created and the majority of the techniques involved stretching out the partner and sliding that extension into the hole created by the leverage against the joints.

Of course, it's a demo. He largely left out the atemi which would help nuetralize the partner's ability to run a counter. They did everything from close to static. It didn't look like the old guy had any trouble moving however. But there wasn't any technique in the demo in which I thought the uke "tanked" for the old man.

It's very interesting to see these "older" versions of our technique. Everything is closer to the body, much more emphasis on leverage against the joints to get the uke moving off his base than what is typically done these days in Aikido.

You're obviously welcome to disagree. You'll note however that I didn't say that what he was doing wouldn't work, I did say that I saw no real kuzushi. I see a lot of leveraging joints, but he does not control the encounter through any meaningful kuzushi even in the longer more complicated manuvers. I'll also disagree with your comments on the atemi, he shouldn't need atemi in order keep his partner from countering, if he's relying on that, the technique is already blown.

Some specifics:
1:28- uke takes a spectacular highfall from an atemi. I'm not saying that getting hit here wouldn't work, but people don't fall like that from getting hit in the jaw, and he does not control the encounter leading up to the strike. There are easier ways to punch someone in the face.

2:01- A good example of how uke simply follows his movements despite nage having no real kuzushi that's affecting his core. Watch uke's footwork and shoulders.

2:39- Watch uke's body language during this shihonage type throw. He's fully balanced while nage moves around him and then uses simple torque and leverage to dump the guy. Again there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but aiki/ju arts SHOULD do better.

3:00- This is a good shot of the 'behind the back' kotegaeshi. Note how relaxed uke's body is throughout this movement and how he's completely balanced right up until being thrown and then he takes his fall. Nage is not controlling the encounter, but running around and finally cranking on a joint. You can also see that uke is already headed into the throw before nage has his second hand in position to stabilize the wrist lock. Not impressive to me.

4:34- Note uke's body language and how much slack is visible in the arm being used to throw.

5:41- Again note how totally balanced uke's body is throughout this very complicated manuver. You can see the slack between uke and nage as uke's arm is extended and retracted all without affecting his torso one bit, then nage finishes with uke taking a flashy fall.

Hope that's helpful in understanding my comments. :)

justinc
06-29-2006, 07:37 PM
At our school, almost all our basic techniques are taught and practiced from a stationary position. The basic philosophy is that if you can make it work on a static position, a moving target is far easier to move to. It ensure you have the basics of correct balance taking correct. While I have no idea who the master is, our school looks and teaches techniques that look very similar to that video. There's little to no leverage on the joints, it's all just positioning, balance and connection - all the things that you would expect to see in your average Aikido class. For those that don't think static attacks are realistic, perhaps you should come to a few of the pubs I used to hang out at. Not uncommon for some guy to not take a liking to you and just threaten by grabbing an arm or hand and standing there very still looking at you straight in the eye.

As for throws from strikes, it's quite possible. Striking arts aren't always about just breaking a bone - particularly one that uses a blending philosophy like Hapkido does. Strikes are just like atemi - used to move the attacker to an advantageous position for the defender. I've been thrown quite a few times from a well placed kick and punch at just the right point in my movement and there's little I can do about it. Part of Aikido is blending. If you see a punch coming at you, you don't just stand there and absorb it, do you? Moving to get out of the way and if they just connect at the right time, well, there's a breakfall or roll. What you see there is fairly common sort of punch from a technique. I've used exactly the same sort of technique quite a lot. Really surprises your partner when the think they've got you only to find themselves turning into a strike moving rapidly at their jaw and the tables reversed shortly thereafter.

There's nothing athletic about uke here. Some schools don't like to practice breakfalls, or teach that having a breakfall means that nage did something wrong. The falls are just a method of protecting yourself, and may even be used for a counter, particularly a sacrifice throw. As for nage just running around and then uke takes a fall, you're welcome to come to our school and see if that is really the case.

As for the tapping. Yup, that's pure and simple theatrics. Like someone said above, we use a single tap for when the lock is on, two taps if a technique is painful (for uke's definition of painful). We don't teach pain compliance, but we're training, and occasionally mess something up hence the need for different signals.

aikigirl10
06-30-2006, 09:57 AM
Another thing that struck me about the Hapkido clip is all the techniques were performed from a very static attack. They guy just stands there. Who grabs your wrist and stands there for you to throw him? Very first basic Aikido is done like that but after that everything is done with movement, pulling uke, pushing uke etc. I thought it was fast and flashy but not very realistic. If our attacks are considered unrealistic, I'm not sure what those would be labeled at. i say you have to have movement and dynamics in all of this to get these techniques to work against someone who is actually intending to hit you,grab, you etc without stopping and just standing there for you to throw/lock him.

My limited experience leads me to this train of thought. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


I agree with you very much so.

Chavez
06-30-2006, 10:05 AM
Although I cannot be certain, I doubt that Debbie Gorman is still in training. She was student under Matsuoka Sensei long ago during the Tenshin Dojo days.

ChrisMoses
06-30-2006, 10:28 AM
At our school, almost all our basic techniques are taught and practiced from a stationary position. The basic philosophy is that if you can make it work on a static position, a moving target is far easier to move to. It ensure you have the basics of correct balance taking correct. While I have no idea who the master is, our school looks and teaches techniques that look very similar to that video. There's little to no leverage on the joints, it's all just positioning, balance and connection - all the things that you would expect to see in your average Aikido class. [snip]

As for nage just running around and then uke takes a fall, you're welcome to come to our school and see if that is really the case.


I'll assume you're mostly addressing this to me.

1) I don't have a problem with static training, I do a ton of it. It can be very difficult to do *honest* static training however. If uke is relaxed and static and nage is allowed to move as fast as they want, I don't believe this teaches much of anything. If partners agree to offer cooperative resistance and move in the same tempo (whatever that tempo is) this opens the door for some very valuable training. I don't see this happening on this video. If uke was offering any kind of resistance/connection to nage (uke's role in static/slow training) then nage wouldn't be so free to move. Certainly some subtle/internal stuff can be done by nage to get a range of movement, but I don't see that here. Mike Sigman or Dan want to comment on whether or not they see any clues that this guy is doing any internal stuff to get as much freedom of motion as he's getting?

2) You seem to be taking my comments quite personally. I'm not too interested in showing up at your dojo for class to see what you can make work on me. If you think it through, it's kind of a lose lose situation for me. *Assuming that you're doing nearly the same thing in the video, and that I'm correct in my visual analysis* do I play nice during class and take my falls, or do I offer what I consider apropreate resistance? What are the rules for the encounter during class? Can I move as fast as nage or am I supposed to stand passively while nage performs tsukuri without kuzushi? Am I allowed to strike while nage is setting up the throw? Do I do the same thing to the instructor? Now I'm risking injury by looking like a jerk and causing a teacher to lose face... Now before you grab the closest handbag and start swinging, re-read my assumption. I'm not saying your stuff doesn't work, I'm not saying you can't throw me, I'm not saying your teacher can't throw me, I'm saying that if what your doing is exactly like what's being demonstrated in the hapkido video, then I'm not going to be very impressed and that a large part of it won't work on me if I train in the manner I'm used to. That's it.

ChrisMoses
06-30-2006, 12:40 PM
Hhere's something to watch. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3748489073060595313&q=judo+mifune&pl=true)

Not it's not aikido, but it's probably some of the best footage you can find. This thing is 30 minutes long, and I haven't seen much that impressed me more. If you can't see the qualitative difference between this and the Hapkido video, I just don't know what to tell you.