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Guilty Spark
06-03-2006, 12:45 PM
Hi all.

I have a question about mixing aikido with other martial arts.
It's been suggested to me that I should wait until I have a fairly good grasp of aikido before I start trying to cross train and I understand the wisdom in that completly.

There is no doubt in my mind that I will reach black belt. How long that will take is another question, though I'm in no rush, it's the trip not the destination right?. To top it off I've challanged with an awkward working schedule and inability to find dojo's or partners when work takes me away from my home.

Anyways, I'm interested in complimenting my aikido with another martial arts (though keeping aikido as my primary interest)
Does anyone have any reccomendations on a self defense orientated martial arts that could possibly compliment my aikido? Maybe to fill in for some of aikidos weaker areas such as being dragged to the ground or if i'm stuck in a close quarters situation with someone?

JAMJTX
06-03-2006, 02:05 PM
The only problem I see in training in other arts is that it will slow your progress in each.
You are right in making sure the art you cross-train in compliments Aikido well. Things that do: Certain Karate styles such as Shito Ryu and Goju Ryu. Shinden Jinen Ryu Karatedo is also rooted in Daito Ryu and could be interesting for you. Of course Judo has a long history of compatability with Aikido. I may seem bias here, but the Koroho that I am now learning and promoting blends very well with my Aikido.

Kevin Leavitt
06-03-2006, 02:15 PM
Brazillian Jiujitsu. Grant, check out what we are doing in the U.S. Army. It has proven to be very effective with CQB situations. The basis of it is BJJ. BJJ complements aikido very well as it is also based on controlling center and posture alignment and the feedback process is very similar. although the methodology for training is quite different. I have found it to be a wonderful complement as have others on the list.

For Army guys like us...if you are looking for down and dirty relevant skills, i'd highly recommend our U.S. Army period of instruction. We have several videos out, as well as a Field Manual if you want to see how we are doing things.

We have many testimonials of guys that have used in the past couple of years.

https://www.infantry.army.mil/combatives/

let me know if you can't see it. I can get to it from my IP address in Germany, but I may also have "certificates" laptop that allows me to view .army.mil sights here.

Aristeia
06-03-2006, 02:32 PM
I agree on the BJJ. Judo is usually the first on my "self defence" list for people given that it has more standup - but I found that my aikido trained body movement often got in the way of judo body movement and I've seen it happen the other way around as well - so maybe they don't go together as easily.

I disagree that doing two arts means you won't progress in either as quickly. Provided you are not sacrifcing a training spot in art A to train Art B this should not be the case (i.e. you are expanding your total training hours rather than putting more variety into your existing ones). Particularly if the arts you choose are complimentary, as BJJ/Aikido are in the ways Kevin outlined. Indeed when I was training both I found that the insights of one often carried over into the other and made my practice better.

Chris Li
06-03-2006, 03:33 PM
The only problem I see in training in other arts is that it will slow your progress in each.

Oft stated, but never proven.

Over the long run it has been my experience that cross-training (even from the beginning) enhances progress. If you take a look at studies done on bi-lingual children you see much the same thing - apparent slow-downs in linguistic skills in the early years, but greater achievement in the long run. No downside at all.

Best,

Chris

Larry John
06-03-2006, 03:42 PM
Hey, Kevin!

I could see it from home. Good stuff!

When you comin' by the home dojo again?

Kevin Leavitt
06-03-2006, 04:00 PM
I was trying for this summer, August...but that is quickly dropping by the wayside as I have a business trip to take for a few weeks mid month. I will be in the states, I believe in late august and I am shooting for the last week.

Yea the army stuff is good. It makes you scratch your head at first because the stuff Matt Larsen is showing you on the video is real basic stuff, but it is a good building block. Much like aikido, you don't really fight like that. Essentially it is "ground kata". the video does put our training into perspective though.

I wish we could have the time to fight at all the ranges and methods they show on the video, but pretty much we just do BJJ.

Guilty Spark
06-03-2006, 06:04 PM
Thanks all (and thanks for the link!)

I see how studying two martial arts would reduce the amount of time spent progressing if time was an issue and unfortunately in my case it is.

Be that as it may I think Aikido takes a considerable amount of time to reach a level of proficiency where you can apply it in a self defense situation. (Or perhaps where you are comfortable doing so)

I think I need to balance my long term Aikido training with something thats effective self defense wise, which can be taught or picked up quicker. If I can blend them both together then even better.

Man this site really is worth the time to contribute to and learn from!
Cheers

DonMagee
06-03-2006, 06:47 PM
With 3 to 4 months of boxing, kyokushin karate, judo, mauy thai, bjj, sambo, etc. You will be good enough to handle most untrained people in the ring. Which I personally beleive transfers well to self defense on the street. Of course the blending is all up to you and how you look at and train your aikido.

Personally, I was a judo/bjj/aikido guy. Now I'm mainly focued on bjj/mauy thai.

SeiserL
06-03-2006, 07:14 PM
I cross train in FMA/JKD.

MM
06-03-2006, 07:39 PM
I cross train in FMA/JKD.

I know JKD. :) I started in it for about 6 months and moved away from the dojo. Loved what I was learning. And it really did fit in with my Aikido.

I don't recognize FMA, though. What is that?

I'm starting kali/silat and so far it fits nicely with what I know in Aikido.

Mark

Niko_Brekalo
06-03-2006, 08:14 PM
I wouldnt mind mixing in with jkd or even ninjitsu, i have always been interested in ninjitsu because it was made by village people vs trained armies

Jorge Garcia
06-03-2006, 08:51 PM
I have been training in Aikido for 11 years, in Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai for two years, and in Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido for 1 year. I am having a great time but all three arts are very different from each other although they would seem to be related. I am not a fan of "cross training" for additional proficiency so I have little faith in that idea but I do like learning new and different things. It gives me a new perspective on Aikido which is my principal art.

Lyle Bogin
06-03-2006, 09:23 PM
I still keep my san shou skills sharp as I can. Do folks practice that sport up your way? If you took judo and mixed it with karate free fighitng/kickboxing, you'd get something like it. Strikes, throws, no ground work. I love it.

I'd go out on a limb and say if you have never spent time learning to box, that's a great martial sport, and a fair means of self defense. It is easy to accumulate the whole skill set, and you can get real zen about it. It's also pretty safe. Then in a while you can move on to something new to mix with your core martial art (aikido). Ah, the sweet science!

Kevin Leavitt
06-04-2006, 01:45 AM
Here's the deal for someone like Grant that is trying to gain quick and relevant skills. Nothing wrong with TMA, the methodology is simply too slow to focus in on the core skills you need to develop rapidly. This has been my experience.

Boxing skills are great, but in combat you aren't really going to box. If you can maintain this range in combat you can do other things typically. In a CQB environment typcially you move forward through your opponent rapidly or disengage rapidly to allow your buddy to engage or for you to employ another weapon etc.

We already have the "universal fight plan" built in. Most of us are born knowing how to strike and kick...maybe not as well as a trained martial artist...but still it is there.

So if you are looking to train rapidily you have to prioritize your skills. For soldiers, in empty hand, this typically involves from the Clinch, to the ground. We have found those are the areas in a empty hand CQB situation that are most relevant.

Next would be moving back out from the clinch to knife/striking range. For soldiers, this is a tough one to train rapidily. Knifes are fast! So again, we move back into the clinch range or we disenage to allow for your buddy to assist, or to grab a weapon, or put something between you and the enemy. Scenario based trainng really.

Then there is stick/bat range...again, you move into the clinch or you disengage, or you use your weapon as a striking object if it is malfunctioning. depends on the situation.

Aikido provides wonderful footwork and is among the best way to build some of this mid distance skills to evade and move...however, I would have to side with kali, escrima if I were going to train in a hurry to develop soldiers.

It is hard for us to accept sometimes, but it does not require a great deal of martial training, nor does it have to be complex and technical to teach a 80% solution to greatly enhance someones skills to respond appropriately in combat.

Now, if we start talking defense tactics and police skills that have a different set of rules of engagement and escalation of force criteria...that is a completely different topic and much of what I said above does not apply.

Neither does it apply if you want to have a breadth of skill and options available to you for purposes of budo, understanding, and want to explore areas of use of minimal force. All good stuff!

deepsoup
06-04-2006, 08:36 AM
Does anyone have any reccomendations on a self defense orientated martial arts that could possibly compliment my aikido?
Systema would be worth a look, if there's any around you.
hth
Sx.

SeiserL
06-04-2006, 09:04 AM
I don't recognize FMA, though. What is that?
FMA: Fillipino martial arts (kali, escrims, arnis).

Its he stuff Inosanto taught Lee.

Mike Sigman
06-04-2006, 09:22 AM
Does anyone have any reccomendations on a self defense orientated martial arts that could possibly compliment my aikido? Maybe to fill in for some of aikidos weaker areas such as being dragged to the ground or if i'm stuck in a close quarters situation with someone?I've taken a number of martial arts that were supposedly good and complete martial arts. If I got beat in some engagement, I usually figured it was because I didn't know the martial art that well, I wasn't in good enough strength-shape, etc.,.... I never had the idea that the martial art I spent so much time choosing was lacking in something that I could only get somewhere else. Weird to see so many people suggesting other arts for self-defense. How about "get stronger and learn more Aikido"? ;)

Mike

Nick Pagnucco
06-04-2006, 11:01 AM
I've taken a number of martial arts that were supposedly good and complete martial arts. If I got beat in some engagement, I usually figured it was because I didn't know the martial art that well, I wasn't in good enough strength-shape, etc.,.... I never had the idea that the martial art I spent so much time choosing was lacking in something that I could only get somewhere else. Weird to see so many people suggesting other arts for self-defense. How about "get stronger and learn more Aikido"? ;)

Mike

Combining this with the jo trick thread makes things into a headache inducing mobius strip, as it suggests to learn more aikido you'd need to go find stuff that isn't 'in' aikido, at leats in most dojos.

EDIT - disclaimer: what I just said was more flippant than not. As you, Mike, already pointed out, there's more to aikido than kokyu. The techniques & strategies of aikido are kinda important for aikido too

crbateman
06-04-2006, 11:23 AM
I'd second the motion for Systema and for the Filipino arts, and toss in a nod for Shindo-ryu karate (such as that of Kenji Ushiro Sensei). There will doubtless be other good choices as well. The right match for you, however, is very much a function of the style of Aikido you practice. There are many different styles, and within them, many different teachers. A certain art might make good cross-training sense for some, whereas others might benefit more from a different source. Look around. Find what feels best for you. It's not a race, so take your time and find the right fit.

Jorge Garcia
06-04-2006, 11:59 AM
I've taken a number of martial arts that were supposedly good and complete martial arts. If I got beat in some engagement, I usually figured it was because I didn't know the martial art that well, I wasn't in good enough strength-shape, etc.,.... I never had the idea that the martial art I spent so much time choosing was lacking in something that I could only get somewhere else. Weird to see so many people suggesting other arts for self-defense. How about "get stronger and learn more Aikido"? ;)

Mike


Mike,
I thought then whole world was going crazy! Thanks for that drink of water in the Aiki desert! I bring this issue up on every thread that talks like this but I decided to drop it this time but it was still driving me crazy. It's odd to see so many people just responding "normally" to this idea. It's an acknowledgment that there is no complete martial art anywhere if good self defense is everything out there combined!
There are so many problems with that idea, that it makes my head spin!
1) Who would have time to learn so many arts? One is hard enough.
2) Who says you would be any good at arts # 2, 3, and 4? I know a guy that has been doing BJJ for years and the other guys just sit on him and yawn while he struggles to get away. I took him down and sat on him myself and I have never done BJJ.
3) What if you learned 7 martial arts and the other guy pulled a gun from 10 feet away.
4) What insecurity drives a person to need self defense so badly, that you have to learn 3 or 4 martial arts?
5) How many people that comment on a thread like this have done Aikido long enough to start to understand it. I have been studying it for 11 years and I am just starting to barely understand what my teacher explains to me and shows me.
6) How many people commenting on a this thread don't actually practice Aikido (You know who you are) or only practiced it at a kyu level?
7) Does the philosophy of all these arts make a difference to anyone out there or are we just looking for raw or brute techniques? (By that I mean form with no meaning).
8) Can the people that believe in the mixed martial art to get a better martial art theory really explain the philosophy of Aikido or has that thought never crossed our minds? This is a most important point because if Aikido has poor groundwork or no punching like karate or lacks anything at all, why would a martial artist like Morihei Ueshiba create something like that? Was he ignorant? Did he lack Ideas? Didn't he realize what a good punch in the nose could do?

Friends, I apologize in advance. I just had to get that out. My blood pressure has dropped 50 points and I feel better now. Please return to the topic at hand and ignore my rants.
By the way, I personally suggest Wing Chun, BJJ, a knife and a 38.
Best wishes,

Richard Langridge
06-04-2006, 12:36 PM
Jorge, I can see your point, but in a practicle sense, doing other martial arts is simply a quicker way of learning physical self-defense techniques than studying Aikido on its own.

Mike Sigman
06-04-2006, 01:38 PM
5) How many people that comment on a thread like this have done Aikido long enough to start to understand it. I have been studying it for 11 years and I am just starting to barely understand what my teacher explains to me and shows me.
Hi Jorge:

Well, to be fair, there should be *some* idea of how long it takes to use Aikido as a martial art or for self-defense, whatever. Even in Tai Chi (Taiji is the current preferred spelling), it's expected to take at least 5 years, according to the Chinese. The fact that many westerners have been practicing Taiji for 30-40 years and can't use it as a martial art suggests that it's either them or their teacher, doesn't it? I.e., it's not that the martial art is lacking. So maybe if people at least suggested the possibility that the reason cross-training is needed for Aikido *MAY* be not just the fault of Aikido... that should be considered as well. By the way, I personally suggest Wing Chun, BJJ, a knife and a 38. I suggest getting in shape... the mind knows when the body is in fighting shape and worries disappear proportionately. Notice how O-Sensei worked out constantly to maintain his normal strength and his ki strength.

I assume you suggest a knife and a gun so you can cut 'em if they stand and shoot 'em if they run. ;)

Mike

Guilty Spark
06-04-2006, 02:24 PM
Hey Jorge, I'm glad my thread helped your high blood pressure ;)

Since I started the thread I'll attempt to answer your questions from my point view and situation.

1) Who would have time to learn so many arts? One is hard enough.
Agreed. Finding time to practice Aikido, let alone additional martial arts is tough. The problem I am faced with is that for up to 6 months at a time I may be unable to find an aikido school/class to practice in. Depending on my lack of luck I may even be unable to simply find a partner to practice with. If I am posted to a base without an active aikido community I may have to drive one or two hours each way to attend a class.

2) Who says you would be any good at arts # 2, 3, and 4?
A very real possibility! I am of the mind that exploring any martial art when faced with the choice of that or no martial art at all is a good thing.

3) What if you learned 7 martial arts and the other guy pulled a gun from 10 feet away.
Of course but this can beg the question of why bother to learn any martial art.

4) What insecurity drives a person to need self defense so badly, that you have to learn 3 or 4 martial arts?
Good question! And a fair one too. In my case it is a matter of career. I'm looking at self defense because in my job there is a very real chance I will need it. An inability to defend myself will not only threaten my life but my peers as well. The feeling I'm getting from people (referring to your question #6) is that Aikido DOES take a long time to learn. Even at the "higher" levels your still learning. Looking at aikido and self defense from a practical point of view (using the amount of time I have to study and train with it), I feel that I run a good chance of not being able to use it effectively for a while at least. Perhaps when I've been exposed to it more but I may not have the opportunity to wait. Better safe than sorry.

5) How many people that comment on a thread like this have done Aikido long enough to start to understand it. I have been studying it for 11 years and I am just starting to barely understand what my teacher explains to me and shows me.
Right. Eluding back to question 4, if you're barely understanding Aikido with 11 years under your belt how much do I honestly understand about it? (IE being able to use it effectively)

6) How many people commenting on a this thread don't actually practice Aikido (You know who you are) or only practiced it at a kyu level?
Guilty of the latter. 6th Kyu myself.

7) Does the philosophy of all these arts make a difference to anyone out there or are we just looking for raw or brute techniques? (By that I mean form with no meaning).
Good question. I've been debating with myself over this. Over all I prefer the aikido philosophy of not using force. I think it works much better on a practical level AND spiritual one.
I'll be glad when I'm at that level. Since I am not (yet) I feel that completely abandoning using force (in a real life self defense situation) while trying to understand how NOT to use force wouldn't be wise in my case.
I see it as a controlled gradual process.

8) Can the people that believe in the mixed martial art to get a better martial art theory really explain the philosophy of Aikido or has that thought never crossed our minds? This is a most important point because if Aikido has poor groundwork or no punching like karate or lacks anything at all, why would a martial artist like Morihei Ueshiba create something like that? Was he ignorant? Did he lack Ideas? Didn't he realize what a good punch in the nose could do?
This is quite a bit beyond my level. I would venture a guess that he created aikido after seeing what a good punch to the nose COULD do? In order for him to really understand what aikido was (or would be?) he had to understand the In's and outs of using force.
I can't answer why he would make Aikido. Why he didn't incorporate punching or ground work. He had a dream. Considering his martial arts experience I am sure he was more than comfortable defending himself on the ground as much as standing, his aikido came after a life time of other martial arts (unless I am wrong please correct me)

Now I'm not suggesting aikido can only be done after you've trained in other martial arts. (I wouldn't know) I'm certain there are students out there who have only studied aikido and are just amazing. I can also understand how frustrating it must be to probably have a stream of people always asking the same questions, thank you for being patient.
My main reasons for bringing this up is again from a practical point of view centering on the fact that as much as I love all things aikido I do not have the luxury of 10 years of training.

I see aikido as an art that just takes a long time to learn due to how powerful it is, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I'm looking to cover my butt until I get there. :D

Kevin the self defense your describing in your post is pretty much taken from the material found in the link you sent me? Seems like a very simple no non-sense approach!

Jorge Garcia
06-04-2006, 04:56 PM
For Richard,
You wrote,"in a practice sense, doing other martial arts is simply a quicker way of learning physical self-defense techniques than studying Aikido on its own."

I don't have a problem with your response at all. I think you're premise is a good one. That's not my issue. My point was a reaction to the idea that combining different arts (along with Aikido) is the answer. I suggest that Grant finds one and sticks to it. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

Mike wrote,
"Well, to be fair, there should be *some* idea of how long it takes to use Aikido as a martial art or for self-defense, whatever. Even in Tai Chi (Taiji is the current preferred spelling), it's expected to take at least 5 years, according to the Chinese. The fact that many westerners have been practicing Taiji for 30-40 years and can't use it as a martial art suggests that it's either them or their teacher, doesn't it? I.e., it's not that the martial art is lacking. So maybe if people at least suggested the possibility that the reason cross-training is needed for Aikido *MAY* be not just the fault of Aikido... that should be considered as well."

I don't think I am disagreeing with Mike either. Aikido does take a long time to learn but so do most martial arts. Learning one would be more time efficient. I myself do 3 martial arts but I do aikido 4 days a week and I only have one evening a week for each of the other two and most times, I can hardly make it to the other two. I work and have a family so if I wanted self defense, three arts is not the way to go. I have been doing Daito ryu for two years and am a beginner. In Iaido, I am less than a novice. Maybe I'm slow but by now, I am definitely getting the idea that the martial arts aren't a fast track to self defense and anyone who really knows more than one art proficiently knows that.
I teach at a dojo that has Wing Chun and Goju Ruy karate. In Wing Chun, they definitely aren't in any rush. Our guys in Aikido after one year are doing a lot more than the WC guys are. (That's not a slam either. They practice fighting at least at 3 ranges and I would think that would take longer than what we are doing.) The Goju guys take as long as we do for a black belt but I really don't find them more prepared than we are. In fact, the Goju Ryu instructor has become my student. Look at his resume.
http://www.samuraimartialsports.com/staff.htm
He has been an Army Ranger and was in Special Forces. He tells me that Aikido is plenty tough enough for him. Two other Karate black belts are training with us. I have also had an 8th dan in Taekwondo and instructors in Shorin ryu, Shito ryu ,and Shotokan training with us as well. None of these guys seem to be as insecure about Aikido as the Aikido people are.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is that it frustrates me the way we so glibly start recommending a combining of arts without realizing that couldn't possibly be the answer to Grant's situation. I will,say that if Grant can find an art that will train him in more than one style of fighting, take that but don't take three arts! At least not for the purpose of added proficiency because I submit that if you become proficient on one of those, you will drop proficiency in Aikido and probably never realize it because you can't know what you never found out.

Mike Wrote,"I suggest getting in shape... the mind knows when the body is in fighting shape and worries disappear proportionately. Notice how O-Sensei worked out constantly to maintain his normal strength and his ki strength."

I wholeheartedly agree with this. In fact, that's why I am only relying on Aikido because I do agree with this. I train hard and long and with the best and if I get into trouble, standing or on the ground, the other guy is going to know he was in a fight. Training in more than one martial art (for added proficiency) would diminish this not add to it.
In short, I say take a martial art you can believe in and leave Aikido out if you think it lacks what you need. The art of Aikido is in danger of being lost if we use it as one of three or four choices for raw self defense. Train in the arts for their character enriching and transformative features and learn some self defense in the long haul. In the short haul, a gun will work but just being alert, staying out of dangerous places and working to stay out of trouble will do a lot better for you than any three or four martial arts combined.
Best,

Jorge Garcia
06-04-2006, 05:15 PM
Hey Jorge, I'm glad my thread helped your high blood pressure ;)

Since I started the thread I'll attempt to answer your questions from my point view and situation.


Agreed. Finding time to practice Aikido, let alone additional martial arts is tough. The problem I am faced with is that for up to 6 months at a time I may be unable to find an aikido school/class to practice in. Depending on my lack of luck I may even be unable to simply find a partner to practice with. If I am posted to a base without an active aikido community I may have to drive one or two hours each way to attend a class.


A very real possibility! I am of the mind that exploring any martial art when faced with the choice of that or no martial art at all is a good thing.


Of course but this can beg the question of why bother to learn any martial art.


Good question! And a fair one too. In my case it is a matter of career. I'm looking at self defense because in my job there is a very real chance I will need it. An inability to defend myself will not only threaten my life but my peers as well. The feeling I'm getting from people (referring to your question #6) is that Aikido DOES take a long time to learn. Even at the "higher" levels your still learning. Looking at aikido and self defense from a practical point of view (using the amount of time I have to study and train with it), I feel that I run a good chance of not being able to use it effectively for a while at least. Perhaps when I've been exposed to it more but I may not have the opportunity to wait. Better safe than sorry.


Right. Eluding back to question 4, if you're barely understanding Aikido with 11 years under your belt how much do I honestly understand about it? (IE being able to use it effectively)


Guilty of the latter. 6th Kyu myself.


Good question. I've been debating with myself over this. Over all I prefer the aikido philosophy of not using force. I think it works much better on a practical level AND spiritual one.
I'll be glad when I'm at that level. Since I am not (yet) I feel that completely abandoning using force (in a real life self defense situation) while trying to understand how NOT to use force wouldn't be wise in my case.
I see it as a controlled gradual process.


This is quite a bit beyond my level. I would venture a guess that he created aikido after seeing what a good punch to the nose COULD do? In order for him to really understand what aikido was (or would be?) he had to understand the In's and outs of using force.
I can't answer why he would make Aikido. Why he didn't incorporate punching or ground work. He had a dream. Considering his martial arts experience I am sure he was more than comfortable defending himself on the ground as much as standing, his aikido came after a life time of other martial arts (unless I am wrong please correct me)

Now I'm not suggesting aikido can only be done after you've trained in other martial arts. (I wouldn't know) I'm certain there are students out there who have only studied aikido and are just amazing. I can also understand how frustrating it must be to probably have a stream of people always asking the same questions, thank you for being patient.
My main reasons for bringing this up is again from a practical point of view centering on the fact that as much as I love all things aikido I do not have the luxury of 10 years of training.

I see aikido as an art that just takes a long time to learn due to how powerful it is, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I'm looking to cover my butt until I get there. :D

Kevin the self defense your describing in your post is pretty much taken from the material found in the link you sent me? Seems like a very simple no non-sense approach!


Grant,
For #1- I say take an art close to you and don't go that far for Aikido.
On #6 - Yes, Aikido takes a long time to learn, a very long time. At 5 years, I felt confident. At 10 years, I lost my fears and had my questions answered. In the last year, I have been realizing that Aikido isn't about the techniques as much as it is about how you move and how you shoot your energy. Hearing my teacher tell me that Aikido has no form and then watching him demonstrate that let me look at another entire level.

You're response to # 3 may beg the question but the answer is that maybe you shouldn't take Aikido or add it as an addendum to other arts since it does take so long to learn.

You're answer to# 5 is that maybe Aikido isn't for you right now.

Aikido is a Japanese budo. For me, the book, The Spirit of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba spells the meaning and purpose of Aikido clearly. The Founder didn't mind people taking other arts. I asked my own teacher if I could take other arts and he said to me, "Whatever your do with your time is your own business." For me, that's not the issue. I just hate to see the mindset that we should or even could suggest to the public at large that Aikido is a good mix with other arts for self defense. That, I do disagree with.
Again , sorry for being too much about this. You've heard enough here Grant, to make a good choice and whatever you do will be fine.
Best,

DonMagee
06-05-2006, 06:08 AM
Mike,
1) Who would have time to learn so many arts? One is hard enough.
Very true, its hard to find the time. But that is not to say you need the same level of skill and training in all arts. If I love striking, I still need to learn how to defend myself on the ground, at least to the point that I will have a chance to counter take downs or stand back up. Maybe I could learn bjj once a week or once every other week with my karate 3 times a week.


2) Who says you would be any good at arts # 2, 3, and 4? I know a guy that has been doing BJJ for years and the other guys just sit on him and yawn while he struggles to get away. I took him down and sat on him myself and I have never done BJJ.
All the more reason to cross train, who is to say you dont suck at aikido. Maybe you spend 10 years in aikido and find out you can't really use any of it. But seriously, I was kidding there. Its not about not being able to gain skill, its about dedication. If you friend has done bjj for years and can't handle people on the ground, he probably hasn't dedicated any time to it. What would you tell someone who has done aikido for years and still sucks at it?


3) What if you learned 7 martial arts and the other guy pulled a gun from 10 feet away. I'd give him my wallet. Unless you know a martial art for 10 foot gun disarms?


4) What insecurity drives a person to need self defense so badly, that you have to learn 3 or 4 martial arts? Insecurity? I'm not insecure in the least. Although I dont train martial arts for self defense. I train them for self betterment.(is that a word?). For my sport, I have to be able to strike, throw and grapple. If I didn't train in any of those areas I would not be able to compete in my sport. I really dont think you need 4 arts for self defense. For self defense you need to be familiar with striking, clinching/throwing, and ground work. And most importantly you need to be comfortable with aggression and in good physical shape. If you get out of breath walking up a small flight of stairs, your chances of surviving an encouter with a mugger are slim. If you have never been punched in the face before, your chances of keeping your cool when it happens are also slim.

5) How many people that comment on a thread like this have done Aikido long enough to start to understand it. I have been studying it for 11 years and I am just starting to barely understand what my teacher explains to me and shows me.
This is why I dont feel aikido is good for people who's main concern is self defense. If you are worried about self defense, you should be worried about it now. Not 15 years from now. You can be good enough in bjj, boxing, judo, etc in a few months. It takes years to have an resemblance of skill in aikido.

6) How many people commenting on a this thread don't actually practice Aikido (You know who you are) or only practiced it at a kyu level? I am a kyu rank. Of course I dont claim you can't use aikido for self defense. I just claim its not the best course (mainly because of its training methods and time requires to gain skill).

7) Does the philosophy of all these arts make a difference to anyone out there or are we just looking for raw or brute techniques? (By that I mean form with no meaning). I personally dont care for philosophy. I read it, study it, and make up my own mind. But I really feel that at high levels of any arts all the roads lead to the same place.

8) Can the people that believe in the mixed martial art to get a better martial art theory really explain the philosophy of Aikido or has that thought never crossed our minds? This is a most important point because if Aikido has poor groundwork or no punching like karate or lacks anything at all, why would a martial artist like Morihei Ueshiba create something like that? Was he ignorant? Did he lack Ideas? Didn't he realize what a good punch in the nose could do?

I personally think the reason Ueshiba did not include striking and ground work is that his students were accomplished martial artists. He was refining their techniques and showing them a better path. He did not need to teach them how to punch/kick/choke someone on the ground. The problem today is that most aikido students seem to have no real background in martial arts. They jump right into aikido and are not taught the 'basics' of unarmed fighting. And then their instructor will tell them to throw some atemi in. Would it not be proper to teach proper atemi if you are going to advocate it to your students? Ueshiba was also trained on the ground (there are photo's on the web with him doing ground work). Who is to say he didnt' agree with it, but simply didnt' teach it because his students were already good enough on the ground, and aikido is not about teaching someone to fight?

pezalinski
06-05-2006, 08:34 AM
Just a thought: Aikido began as a "Mixed Martial Art," so the connections with the roots of many other martial arts are still there... :D

Jorge Garcia
06-05-2006, 09:25 AM
Sorry Don, but things didn't work out for you on your post. I hate to tell you this but you just missed reaffirming all my posts. I'll give you a 95% but I can't give you the other 5 points if you made a factual mistake.

You wrote,
"Maybe I could learn bjj once a week or once every other week with my karate 3 times a week."

You'll have to include Aikido in this schedule because that was what I was referencing. I have no problem with mixing karate and BJJ. Also, I don't know that BJJ is so easy, that you can gain proficiency working at it once every other week either. That's only two times a month! I have to give BJJ a little more credit than that. There are some full time BJJ posters on this thread. Is your art that easy guys?

"All the more reason to cross train, who is to say you don't suck at aikido. Maybe you spend 10 years in aikido and find out you can't really use any of it. But seriously, I was kidding there. Its not about not being able to gain skill, its about dedication. If you friend has done bjj for years and can't handle people on the ground, he probably hasn't dedicated any time to it. What would you tell someone who has done aikido for years and still sucks at it?"

Now Don, nothing personal but when I read this, I had to go to your profile to check your age because your thinking was nonsensical here. Sometimes a younger person will make mistakes like this. This is my point you just made! What if you're no good at Aikido. Everyone has acknowledged this art takes a long time. For sure if your going to add aikido to something, you would have to give the more difficult art more time. In the case of someone that isn't good at Aikido (and I have seen people like that), they would lose that aspect of their self defense and the time mixing the arts, at least from the Aikido perspective would be wasted. Then to top it off, we would have even less assurance the individual would be any good at the other arts!

You also said it was all about dedication, not being able to gain skill. I'm not sure this made sense or is a factual statement. My friend was extremely dedicated but as in many situations, couldn't beat some of the people.

You wrote,
"Insecurity? I'm not insecure in the least. Although I don't train martial arts for self defense. I train them for self betterment.(is that a word?). For my sport, I have to be able to strike, throw and grapple. If I didn't train in any of those areas I would not be able to compete in my sport. I really don't think you need 4 arts for self defense. For self defense you need to be familiar with striking, clinching/throwing, and ground work. And most importantly you need to be comfortable with aggression and in good physical shape. If you get out of breath walking up a small flight of stairs, your chances of surviving an encounter with a mugger are slim. If you have never been punched in the face before, your chances of keeping your cool when it happens are also slim"

This makes all my points and contradicts nothing I have said. Thanks

"This is why I don't feel aikido is good for people who's main concern is self defense. If you are worried about self defense, you should be worried about it now. Not 15 years from now. You can be good enough in bjj, boxing, judo, etc in a few months. It takes years to have an resemblance of skill in aikido."

Again, you have made all my points. Thanks
I would say though that I don't agree with this, " You can be good enough in bjj, boxing, judo, etc in a few months."

I hope the legions of boxers, bjj and especially Judo practitioners rise up and defend their arts! A few months!!!! Please, tell me you are joking! My father in law was a professional boxer and I have a friend who was world class boxer who fought for two world championships and they would beg to differ. I also have two judo practitioners in my dojo. I'll ask them if a few months will do the trick. As a matter of fact, I have some grapplers in my Victoria, Texas dojo, I'll ask them about the few months it takes. Sorry but I don't think so about the "few months".

Don you wrote,
"I am a kyu rank. Of course I don't claim you can't use aikido for self defense. I just claim its not the best course (mainly because of its training methods and time requires to gain skill)."
and
"I personally don't care for philosophy. I read it, study it, and make up my own mind. But I really feel that at high levels of any arts all the roads lead to the same place."


I made the first comment about the Aikido rank of those who comment because on a thread like this, your comments carry less weight if you haven't been in the art long enough to know what you're talking about. I am afraid on a board like this one, that is the case much of the time and the other new readers and young Aikidoists don't realize who is commenting. This is a free country and the Board was made for all who respect each other but that doesn't change the fact that in a perfect world, the only people making pronouncements and giving advise on an art should be those who have earned the right to do so by years and years of hard practice. That should be a minimum standard because everyone else have the ability to muddy up the water with statements they can't back up. Please understand though that everyone has the right to comment but that doesn't mean we all should every time.

As for the philosophy, in every art, it is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training. To learn Wing Chun or any art with no regard to it's philosophical base, whatever it is, says a lot about the mindset of that person. To say that all roads lead to Rome is too simplistic because if that was the case, then there would be nothing to discuss.


Your last comment was
"I personally think the reason Ueshiba did not include striking and ground work is that his students were accomplished martial artists. He was refining their techniques and showing them a better path. He did not need to teach them how to punch/kick/choke someone on the ground. The problem today is that most aikido students seem to have no real background in martial arts. They jump right into aikido and are not taught the 'basics' of unarmed fighting. And then their instructor will tell them to throw some atemi in. Would it not be proper to teach proper atemi if you are going to advocate it to your students? Ueshiba was also trained on the ground (there are photo's on the web with him doing ground work). Who is to say he didn't' agree with it, but simply didn't' teach it because his students were already good enough on the ground, and aikido is not about teaching someone to fight?"

Some of your statements here aren't factual and deal with conjecture so I won't comment here. I think this speaks for itself.
Good try Don. I think we agree in the main. Again, all I am saying is that it doesn't make sense when some one writes in about learning self defense quick to glibly add Aikido to BJJ, Karate,and Wing Chun as if though that was attainable for self defense. In my mind, it also makes a huge difference that Aikido wasn't made to be a mixed martial art and that kind of thinking will eventually dilute this art to nothing. It concerns me that the very goal of the Founder will be countermanded by this kind of thinking and the whole reason he created Aikido will be lost in a sea of people in pursuit of a form of personal invincibility that doesn't exist. That was his revelation. That no matter how many techniques you know, no matter how strong you are, no matter how proficient you become at fighting, eventually, you will be defeated. There had to be another way. Aikido was his answer to that problem and at least for him, it led him to another level of thinking and understanding. He understood that if he could get others to see this, that the world would be changed. I hate to see that lost to the lowest part of what we are as humans. Maybe that will happen but I had to say something while I wait for the next thread by someone starting Aikido that needs some quick self defense and the legion of posters who will start showing us why they are doing martial arts.
If anyone finds that perfect, all range, super fighting self defense dojo, I have a feeling they won't like it at all because the people in there will just suck all the oxygen and life out of that place. Your dojo mates will be the most testoserone filled, ego driven people on earth. If you are really a good and sincere person, you will hate that place. The martial arts world is full of dojos like that. Drive by and look at the sign. It says Aikido, Judo, Kung Fu, BJJ, etc., etc. and all the arts are taught by the same person and all the students are learning all the arts.
I can't tell you how many people from those dojos I have met. They are jack of all trades and master of none. They are self centered in the main and want to learn Aikido for all the wrong reasons. I always tell seekers who aren't sure of what art they want. Go to any dojo and look at the sign. If it has listed more than one art, go in there and make sure all the arts are taught by one person each that are dedicated to that art. If all the arts are taught by one person period, then you should go somewhere else because it is highly probable that person won't represent any of the arts properly and what you learn will be severely watered down.

I've said my peace. I'm out of this one and will try to refrain in the future for the patient readers out there who aren't posting who know what I'm talking about. My apologies if I represented you poorly.
Best wishes,

Ron Tisdale
06-05-2006, 10:14 AM
Jorge, I enjoyed your post, and while I do have some disagreements with it, I think it adds some very important perspectives to this topic.

The main thing that I think your post misses, is that the orginal poster is specifically looking for something geared toward his occupation. I don't believe he has said what that occupation is directly, but it sounds as if it is some type of law enforcement or at least a job where the staff must occationally be able to restrain people.

If that is the case, I think there are programs you can take that will drill some basics into you in a relatively short period of time. BJJ or aikido might be a good addition to some of those programs, especially if you have numbers on your side (multiple staff for one patient, for instance). We have seen aikido often in use in Law Enforcement for that very reason.

If you want to learn how to brawl or to survive knock down type situations, I think that is different from the category above. There, a mix of basics such as what you see in UFC type events might actually suit well...if you have some native ability. Otherwise, it could be a longer haul than you think.

Aikido, in my mind, is better suited to longer term goals. But I've been wrong before.

Best,
Ron

Jorge Garcia
06-05-2006, 10:46 AM
Thanks Ron.
I can agree with you on that. If a person takes a short term course in basic skills, that could be beneficial toward a job situation assuming of course that he will have to practice those skills on the job. That is the case with my son, who works as a loss prevention specialist for a major chain store. He frequently has to apprehend and cuff shoplifters and even professional criminals that travel in groups from state to state. He is a nidan in Aikido but has to use the techniques provided by the company to avoid lawsuits. It is a basic skills short term training. While he doesn't like the techniques because they are very restrictive to the one using them, he has in fact gained a proficiency on the job using them.
Of course, that brings up another issue. That is that depending on the job, employers are very nervous about using martial arts techniques on anyone they apprehend because of the threat of injury and lawsuits. My son would be fired if he used Aikido.
Of course, your idea that BJJ could be useful in a short term way could be right.
Thanks for your input, I accept any corrections you would give me.
Best,

DonMagee
06-05-2006, 11:04 AM
I just want to clarify a few things I guess I didn't' communicate properly.

1) My karate example. I was trying to get across the point that you do not have to master every art you cross train in. You can cross train to simply add the idea or concept of arts. Yes you will not master bjj by training it 2 times a month. However you will understand what it means to be on your back and basic ideas and concepts that will allow you to defend yourself against take-downs and possibly stand back up. Of course you will suck at bjj, but thats ok because you are only using it to try to keep the fight standing so you can punch a guy in the face. To make an example about aikido I would say you could study boxing to better understand punching and thus allowing you to work with different kinds of punches and better apply your aikido though using more atemi or learning to defend against much better strikers then you may meet in your aikido class.

2) When I was referring to your friend and lack of bjj skill. I was trying to make two points. The first was that if it is true that some people are just no good at somethings, then they should cross train to find out what they are good at. Rather then waste their time at something they will never gain any skill at. However my second point was that I don't believe this to be true. I believe that with dedication, you can be good at anything. The point I was trying to make is that if it is true that you can be just no good at something, then it is even more important to cross train and find out what you are good at.

3) My point about 3 months of a martial art to be successful at self defense. I will defend this by saying it is true. I will tell you why. Your first night in any 'sport' martial art (judo,boxing, kick-boxing, bjj, etc) you will be sparing. What this means is you will develop timing and technique against a resisting partner from day one. You will be used to how other people (both noob and advanced alike) move and attack you. In the case of striking arts you will learn how to take a punch as well. This means you will learn quickly how to attack and defend. Much faster then arts that do not train in this manner. This means that when faced with an attacker on the street, you will be able to employ these skills much sooner then people who don't train in these sport arts. By good enough I do not mean you will go win a national level judo competition, or are ready to compete in boxing. But I simply mean you will be able to use your skills in a fight with success. With less then 3 months of judo I could throw around my friends in sparing, I could throw around karate guys, wrestlers, other noob judo guys like me, etc. All in fully resistant sparing. This means if a guy on the street trys to engage me, I can throw him just the same as in class (providing he was wearing a nice thick jacket of course ). In fact after i spent just a short time in judo, I found that people with no ground fighting training felt sluggish, weak, and slow. And they made bad decisions about how to move and I could submit them at will. The same goes for my striking training. After a few months of sparing and training in boxing/mauy thai. I found that sparing with new people, and even my friends who used to train that they felt slow and sluggish and telegraphed all their techniques. This is a good sign for being able to defend myself. After a year of aikido, I never got this feeling. After 5+ years of TKD point sparing, I never got this feeling.

My bjj instructor brings in experts in striking and mma pros to work with us and build our striking game. Does training with a former pro boxer make give us good boxing skills? Not really, but it does improve our overall striking ability which helps us win more MMA fights. I feel this directly relates to improvements in self defense.

Will you eventually gain self defense skills and this feeling that I am talking about? I have no doubt you can gain these skills in any martial art given enough time. But if you are worried about self defense, look at months not years. You might need to defend yourself tomorrow, and have no need to defend yourself when your 65.

4) Finally, I do agree with you that schools that claim to teach multiple arts are usually full of it. Just because you train in something does not make you qualified to teach it. I would not want one guy to teach me judo, bjj, karate, aikido, and wing tsun. At the same time, you do need someone who can help you learn to blend your striking, clinch/throw, and ground game together. I learn judo at a judo club, bjj with a focus on MMA at my bjj club. And then my bjj instructor brings in experts to help us build our striking game. Then he uses his exp to help us blend it all back into our game.

I believe that sport and self defense training should be broke into delivery systems. These systems should be trained in all arts.

That way you can have
striking
clinch/throw
ground
internal.

I don't think it really matters if you are doing bjj techniques or aikido techniques if you are working towards the internal ideas of aikido, you are still doing aikido. I do feel that if you are training a 'martial art' that you are assuming to need the skills to defend yourself (why else would you want martial skills?). If that is the case, you need to have all your bases covered. Unfortunately, its not normally possible to have all your bases covered in most modern day dojos.

Kevin Leavitt
06-05-2006, 02:25 PM
Lots of good stuff here!

Here is why I made the recommendations to Grant that I made:

He asked a very specific question about training for a military situation.

Bottomline, I have seen competent fighters produced from our Army School with little or no martial background in 60 Days at our School house in Fort Benning. It can and is being done.

I studied for 12 years in TMA and had a hard time holding my own for a while against two of them. It is a hard pill to swallow, but it is the truth.

Now, that said...where they competent Martial Artist?

No, while they had a good base, and had substanial skills that would give them an edge over any normal/typical shodan in aikido, that does not mean that they would even remotely do well in a normal school.

It is all about the focus and intent of your training. There is nothing wrong wtih TMA, it is just not the most efficient way to develop the specific fighting skills that you might need in a hand to hand situation in combat.

It really does not take a great deal of skill in order to learn to fight or to grapple for a combat situation.

Demetrio Cereijo
06-05-2006, 02:44 PM
The main thing that I think your post misses, is that the orginal poster is specifically looking for something geared toward his occupation. I don't believe he has said what that occupation is directly, but it sounds as if it is some type of law enforcement or at least a job where the staff must occationally be able to restrain people.
Military:
I'm a soldier and I'm heading overseas in a few months for my third tour.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=142929&postcount=1

Ron Tisdale
06-05-2006, 02:53 PM
ah, cool, thanks.

B,
R

Gene Skiff
06-06-2006, 08:02 PM
I'm relatively new posting to this board, but I've been lurking awhile. What I've seen is that there is a lot of polarization on just about any given subject: classic Aikido vs Nihon Goshin, training styles, you name it. I believe that the differences in us all allow for different perspectives. One may want to devote their whole life to one art, while another will want to sample and learn many without ever "perfecting" one.

My bottom line, have fun, do my best and hope it's just for fun.

That being said, I study Nihon Goshin Aikido 5 hours per week and mixed Japanese Jiu Jitsu (Budoshin, Aiki, etc) 2 hours a week from the same Sensei. I find that they are highly complimentary, especially as my Sensei's prime goal is good AIkido.

Peace.

aikispike
06-07-2006, 02:41 AM
If you wanted to compliment your aikido with a non-self defensive art jodo is great fun.

Michael

Hi all.

Anyways, I'm interested in complimenting my aikido with another martial arts (though keeping aikido as my primary interest)
Does anyone have any reccomendations on a self defense orientated martial arts that could possibly compliment my aikido? Maybe to fill in for some of aikidos weaker areas such as being dragged to the ground or if i'm stuck in a close quarters situation with someone?

xuzen
06-07-2006, 02:52 AM
If you wanted to compliment your aikido with a non-self defensive art jodo is great fun. Michael

Aikido + Judo + Jodo = Undefeatable.

Boon.

MM
06-07-2006, 09:07 AM
FMA: Fillipino martial arts (kali, escrims, arnis).

Its he stuff Inosanto taught Lee.

Ah, that FMA. :) Thanks for the clarification.

Wanted to ask you a few questions. And I'm not expecting any answers, so if the questions are not what you want to answer, I'm fine with that. Some people don't like to talk about their backgrounds online. I'm starting training in kali/silat and just wondered about some things.

How long have you been studying FMA? How has it affected your aikido and your aikido training? Or if you started aikido first, how did that affect your FMA?

Thanks,
Mark

MM
06-07-2006, 09:10 AM
I've taken a number of martial arts that were supposedly good and complete martial arts. If I got beat in some engagement, I usually figured it was because I didn't know the martial art that well, I wasn't in good enough strength-shape, etc.,.... I never had the idea that the martial art I spent so much time choosing was lacking in something that I could only get somewhere else. Weird to see so many people suggesting other arts for self-defense. How about "get stronger and learn more Aikido"? ;)

Mike

Hi Mike,
The more I progress in Aikido, the more I realize that it is (or can be) a total and complete martial art. You don't have to go to BJJ or MMA to "round out" your training. :)

But I am starting on other training because it is something that is interesting to me not because I think it'll fill in any gaps in my Aikido training. In fact, I think my aikido training will actually help me a lot in my kali training.

Mark

MM
06-07-2006, 09:14 AM
Mike,
I thought then whole world was going crazy! Thanks for that drink of water in the Aiki desert! I bring this issue up on every thread that talks like this but I decided to drop it this time but it was still driving me crazy. It's odd to see so many people just responding "normally" to this idea. It's an acknowledgment that there is no complete martial art anywhere if good self defense is everything out there combined!


Well, I didn't take the original question as you did. I took it that the person wanted some martial art that would be complimentary to Aikido. That's a whole different world than someone asking for another martial art to take because Aikido wasn't a complete system.

Mark

MM
06-07-2006, 09:31 AM
Maybe what I'm trying to say is that it frustrates me the way we so glibly start recommending a combining of arts without realizing that couldn't possibly be the answer to Grant's situation. I will,say that if Grant can find an art that will train him in more than one style of fighting, take that but don't take three arts! At least not for the purpose of added proficiency because I submit that if you become proficient on one of those, you will drop proficiency in Aikido and probably never realize it because you can't know what you never found out.

In short, I say take a martial art you can believe in and leave Aikido out if you think it lacks what you need. The art of Aikido is in danger of being lost if we use it as one of three or four choices for raw self defense. Train in the arts for their character enriching and transformative features and learn some self defense in the long haul. In the short haul, a gun will work but just being alert, staying out of dangerous places and working to stay out of trouble will do a lot better for you than any three or four martial arts combined.
Best,

Reading further, I think I mistook the original question. But my answer was in regards to complimenting aikido and not adding to it. In other words, what martial arts would not diametrically oppose Aikido training. What martial arts would not detract from Aikido training. Sort of that kind of complimenting.

I do agree with what you state above.

Thanks,
Mark

Kevin Leavitt
06-07-2006, 09:33 AM
Mark Murray wrote:

The more I progress in Aikido, the more I realize that it is (or can be) a total and complete martial art. You don't have to go to BJJ or MMA to "round out" your training. But I am starting on other training because it is something that is interesting to me not because I think it'll fill in any gaps in my Aikido

Hi Mark,

You are correct you don't need to go to any other art to round out your training in aikido. That said, there are other perspectives and methodologies on the same theme that can enhance your skills in budo in general. It depends on your interest, as you state, and your goals.

No one martial art can answer every question or accomplish every goal of the student. Budo is a individual endeavor that each of us must figure out how to proceed. But, you are correct, nothing here that anyone has said, IMO, should equate to aikido being incomplete. Aikido can be complete for some, and not for others.

MM
06-07-2006, 09:42 AM
Thanks Ron.
I can agree with you on that. If a person takes a short term course in basic skills, that could be beneficial toward a job situation assuming of course that he will have to practice those skills on the job. That is the case with my son, who works as a loss prevention specialist for a major chain store. He frequently has to apprehend and cuff shoplifters and even professional criminals that travel in groups from state to state. He is a nidan in Aikido but has to use the techniques provided by the company to avoid lawsuits. It is a basic skills short term training. While he doesn't like the techniques because they are very restrictive to the one using them, he has in fact gained a proficiency on the job using them.
Of course, that brings up another issue. That is that depending on the job, employers are very nervous about using martial arts techniques on anyone they apprehend because of the threat of injury and lawsuits. My son would be fired if he used Aikido.
Of course, your idea that BJJ could be useful in a short term way could be right.
Thanks for your input, I accept any corrections you would give me.
Best,

I never knew that certain companies have certain techniques that are official use only. Hey, you get to learn something new every day. :)

On that topic (sorry for jumping off topic here), I wonder what would happen if the person being apprehended got very violent to the point of life-threatening and your son did use other techniques besides the official ones? In that instance, I think, knowing a martial art would be very beneficial. Hopefully you'd never have to use it, but like the old adage ... I'd rather have it and not have to use it than not have it and need it.

Mark

MM
06-07-2006, 09:55 AM
Mark Murray wrote:



Hi Mark,

You are correct you don't need to go to any other art to round out your training in aikido. That said, there are other perspectives and methodologies on the same theme that can enhance your skills in budo in general. It depends on your interest, as you state, and your goals.

No one martial art can answer every question or accomplish every goal of the student. Budo is a individual endeavor that each of us must figure out how to proceed. But, you are correct, nothing here that anyone has said, IMO, should equate to aikido being incomplete. Aikido can be complete for some, and not for others.

Hi Kevin,
Agreed. To paraphrase one of my instructors when asked what the best martial art was, he would reply something along the lines of Whichever one you love or are good at. :)

Budo is a lifelong personal journey and can encompass either one art or multiple ones. Aikido is one of the core arts for me in Budo. My cousin's choice is JKD. Which goes right along with your last sentence.

But, if you throw in a time-frame of say 3 months to get a very good grasp on realistic self-defense, how many would put Aikido on the list?

Mark

Kevin Leavitt
06-07-2006, 09:59 AM
I would hope at that point that all bets are off. However, lawyers can better give advice on the whole escalation of force issue. It is a tough one for sure!

One thing for certain, as your skills increase, that is the ability to control a situation, the more responsibility you have to use minmal force.

If the plantif can establish that you had other options that were available that were less damaging, then it doesn't matter what you did or didn't do, you just lost!

I think the techniques they probably use allow for one to establish a degree of objective reasonableness, so all will understand how a prudent and reasonable person should respond.

Dennis Hooker
06-07-2006, 10:04 AM
Donít mix Aikido with other martial arts there is nothing wrong with it as it is. If you have competent instruction your Aikido should be fine, like a fine single malt scotch it does not mix well with stuff, you just ruin the scotch.

Now that is not to say you should not practice other arts, I believe you should, I do and have for over 40 years. They help me develop a better me and that helps my Aikido. Be careful you do not start confusing that other stuff with your Aikido. This is a big problem now days. Incompetent instruction leaves people lacking in skill and feeling inadequate and so they compensate by adding stuff and pretty soon you got Real Aikido or Aikido for the Street or Combat Aikido or some such crap because it just takes to long and to much commitment to get the real stuff. The biggest problem is homogenization and not studying more than one art at a time. Many of us have chosen Aikido because we believe it transcends the other arts. Many of us come well prepared with martial art and military experience. We have spent decades training with Shihan level instruction. The base arts that were the physical foundation to, and gave rise to, Aikido are still around. No matter how hard some people want you to believe it those arts are not Aikido on steroids. Some people study Aikido for 5 or 10 years (or less) under mid level instruction and believe they are authorities on Aikido however when their diluted Aikido breaks down they seek quick patches to the problems and pass on that on to students they shouldnít be teaching in the first place. These patches generally come from other arts they study because they are at hand and they are sometimes things they do well. Because they want to make people think they do Aikido well they call these patches Aikido. The bastardization of Aikido continues.

So in conclusion I say study other arts but donít mix them. That does not do credit to any of the arts.

Ron Tisdale
06-07-2006, 10:07 AM
If someone designed a course around specific techniques geared toward self defense based on the options as a whole that aikido provides, I could see that working for short term self defense. It wouldn't be very fancy, and I don't think it would stand up to stress testing by say, proffessional grapplers, but it could cover some basic points that would be helpfull in the average encounter. If there is an average encounter. I would likely want to include the kind of stress testing you see in the model mugging programs or something similar.

But aikido as it is commonly taught...I would have to point someone elsewhere for a basic 3 month self defense course.

Best,
Ron

jonreading
06-07-2006, 10:39 AM
This isn't the first thread on mixing martial arts, so please check through other threads, you might find them helpful. My belief is that training in multiple martial arts can be confusing; some people can do it, some people can't do it. If you are one of the people that can train and separate different martial arts, God bless you.

I find it interesting that we consider "cross-training" in martial arts that the founder trained in while creating aikido. Many of the early shihan had competent fighting skills before beginning aikido, and many of the best aikido people today came to aikido after other martial arts or training. Yet we look away from aikido to provide basic knowledge of fundamental fighting skills to students. I believe part of the search for other training is related to a degenerating curriculum of basic skills in aikido that require students to find other training to satisfy their needs.

Therefore, I believe the question first should be "Why do I feel I am missing something from my aikido training?" before you ask if you should train elsewhere...

Kevin Leavitt
06-07-2006, 10:50 AM
Good comments and observations Dennis. I would tend to agree with you, I am one of those "5 to 10 year" guys you are referring to.

In my particular situation I don't have access to competent aikido instruction these days, and I am studying/teaching BJJ. I use aikido methods all the time in my teaching, how can i not? It is my base art and I think principally at least it has lots to offer as a methodology.

I also frame everything I do and evaluate it from an "aikido" mentality, that is, I try to do the samethings I do in BJJ that I do in aikido. Actually the principles are EXACTLY the same, but they are not stressed in BJJ, it is assumed that you will implicity learn them, vice explicity as we teach in aikido.

That said, I have studied aikido long enough to appreciate the nuance of the art and what it is trying to teach. I am a 2nd Kyu at best in the study of aikido, so don't presume to be able to be knowledgeable enough about it to even begin to teach it!

While I use aikido skills and methods in what I do, it is not aikido, nor would I presume it to be. I did try and offer aikido to a few guys that said they were interested in aikido, what would happen is that because of my skill level, I found just what you said, things would migrate into the stuff I do to fill the gaps!

So, to me, I study aikido (when I can these days), and I study BJJ and MMA. I see them all related and I am growing as an aikidoka because of these things, but as you state, they are not aikido. On the surface it would seem the logic argument is there, but it really isn't.

I will probably end up teaching one of those "mutt" arts you are talking about, as I think there are some good methodologies out there that do much better at bridging the gaps that "I" think exist in aikido for many of us. Also, I do believe that Aikido should be influenced and open to outside things or it is in danger of becomng inbred and extinct. BUT, this is another subject all together, and even though it may seem I am countering what I just said above about outside influences, it is NOT a contradiction, but a different perspective and application.

DaveS
06-07-2006, 11:06 AM
You are correct you don't need to go to any other art to round out your training in aikido.
Sorry if I'm being thick, but could you expand on that a bit - I'd always taken it as read that there are going to be some things that you can't do with aikido and some situations that you can't deal with using aikido - to give an extreme example, you learn very little that would help you in a gunfight (afaict - I never intend to be in one). To be possibly more controversial and less extreme, I thought that there was a general consensus that aikido lacked groundwork... or am I missing your point. (Probably...)

Chris Li
06-07-2006, 11:12 AM
Sorry if I'm being thick, but could you expand on that a bit - I'd always taken it as read that there are going to be some things that you can't do with aikido and some situations that you can't deal with using aikido - to give an extreme example, you learn very little that would help you in a gunfight (afaict - I never intend to be in one). To be possibly more controversial and less extreme, I thought that there was a general consensus that aikido lacked groundwork... or am I missing your point. (Probably...)

"Sensei, does aikido also have kicking techniques?"

"You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war... an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word 'aiki' because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given ("Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That's the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called 'aiki no jutsu'. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki." "Is that so... I think I understand." "If you still don't understand, come to me again." After that he was afraid of me and bowed to me from far off. When I went to Europe he asked me to take him as well.

From "Reminiscences Of Minoru Mochizuki", available here (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=369).

Best,

Chris

Dennis Hooker
06-07-2006, 11:18 AM
Good comments and observations Dennis. I would tend to agree with you, I am one of those "5 to 10 year" guys you are referring to.
n.


Kevin, I have read some of your postings and I do not believe you are one of the people I was talking about. Those people as self delusional and I donít see that in you at all.

DonMagee
06-07-2006, 11:19 AM
I don't see how it is possible to train multiple arts and not mix them. I've had this conversation before with my aikido instructor about my judo training. There is really no way to say this is a judo technique or this is a bjj technique. You cant' say ikkyo is a aikido technique it exists in jujitsu as well (what hasn't come from some form of jujitsu when you think about it). I think aikido is simply the mindset behind your motions.

When I'm in competition, I dont say ok this is judo so I'm going to use judo. Or this is bjj so I'm going to use bjj. I just act. When I am showing somone a technique I dont say, ok this is a judo technique or this is a bjj technique or this is an aikido technique. I just say, this is something I found that works in this situtaiton.

At the core the principles of centering, relaxation, and balance (weight on my side) are present no matter if I'm in a bjj competiton, or a judo competition, or sparing mma. I've been told you build your own aikido. I've been told you build your own judo. I've heard many a judoka say someone's judo is strong. There is no reason to remove or seperate something simply because you dont think it meets the worlds definition of your art. Martial arts are ment to grow beyond their creators. I look at them the same way I look at open source programming. I have a base of source code that I can change, modify, or combine with others to make a program that does what I need. Then, I have the choice of keeping it to myself or giving it back to the community to disect, critisize, or use as they see fit.

As I've said before I think it all comes down to finding something you enjoy, working at it as hard as you can, then being honest to yourself about your weaknesses and finding ways to improve them. If you are a judo guy, and your weakness is striking, you dont want to train judo harder. You want to go find someone who can teach you how to punch. The same goes to your aikido. Maybe your aikido instructor has no ground training. I personally woulnd't trust someone's teaching on something they have never done. Theory just doesn't work well with me. I would go experiance ground work with someone who has trained in it for a long time, then figure out how to bring it back into my aikido.

Kevin Leavitt
06-07-2006, 01:09 PM
To David Sims,

What Christopher Li said! Wow..that was great!

Dennis Hooker can probably explain better than I as I am a lowly kyu guy in aikido! But to me, I have found aikido to be very complete in it's goals to transmit aikido and it's philosophy.

You have to keep your eye on the ball, so to speak. I really don't like sounding like one of those eastern philosophy guys that offer up koans or questions as an answer!

You are correct that if I were going to become the best at shooting, I would go to the best handgun school I could...not an Aikido dojo! So, it would seem the inverse logic would be "therefore, aikido cannot be complete as a martial art because it cannot be all things!".

Keeping your eye on the ball, look at it this way. In a good handgun school, what do you work on first? Learnng how to coordinate breathing, posture, and timing. You will spend hours in "kamae" an d "ma'ai" learning how to connect this things, bending from the knees with a straight back, breathing, spine alignment...connecting your arms with your hips and body!

Sound familiar? so, the principles of aikido are all there!

I didn't appreciate this really until I got heavily involved into some good military weapons training, and BJJ.

Aikido, minus the philosophical part, is simply a methodology for learning correct body mechanics and how they relate to various inputs. It is universal in nature and applies to all.

So at least in good schools with competent instructors, it is complete as it teaches universal "theory" that is 100% correct.

When you have instructors that claim to be doing aikido, but lack the experience to teach correctly, they will then bridge the gap with something else sometimes to answer that deficiency. THEN, you are in danger of teaching someone something that is NOT dynamically correct within the context of aikido, therefore, that is NOT aikido.

What I study, and why I study it, is that I teach soldiers that need the ability and skills to "bridge that gap". Aikido really cannot teach you to fight well or deal with the realities of many fights or situations. It is not designed too! If you are concerned with "effectiveness" then you have to do some "risk management/assessment" and come up with those things that improve your odds or help you "bridge the gap". It may be a non-lethal weapon such as mace, tazer, or a Lethal weapon such as a handgun. Empty hand you may study some other arts that have proven to have good methodologies for developing effective fighters rapidly, such as BJJ.

That said, what I believe Dennis Hooker is saying is this: Simply acknowledge the fact that this is the case, and don't call it aikido. Failure to understand this, IMO, shows a lack of understanding of the teacher concerning fighting, self defense, and combat in general. They are in a real danger of building there students a shaky base in both aikido and in whatever else they are "bridging the gap" with.

One thing I am always clear with the guys I teach is this. Approach every training time with an understanding your objective for training. I have had classes where we practiced walking in buddy teams down the road and covering down in "overwatch" from a distance. I have had classes where we back a guy into the corner and not let him out. I have had classes where we do kokyu tanden ho for the whole class (they hate it!). It is NOT aikido though!

Many people studying martial arts in the U.S, I believe (sorry if I insult anyone, that is not my intent), do not really understand why they are studying martial arts or aikido. I know it was the case for me when I started years ago. We all have certain expectations or desires, we are all guilty of projecting those desires and expectations on others and on our training. When we do that we come into conflict.

I think that happens alot in aikido.

Sorry for the rambling!

Kevin Leavitt
06-07-2006, 01:20 PM
Dennis Hooker wrote:

Kevin, I have read some of your postings and I do not believe you are one of the people I was talking about. Those people as self delusional and I don't see that in you at all.

Thank you, I apprecitate it from someone as honest and experienced as you!

Sorry I did not mean to imply that you were focusing on me. It never crossed my mind! It is a self label as I certainly fit that mold! I do, however, think (maybe I am deluded???), that I am not one of those guys either!

This is a very, very interesting subject to me though. Last summer when I was home, Mike Lasky and I had a small conversation concerning aikido and it's parochialism and the line you walk between tradition, and customs, and how the Japanese influence in areas such as ettiquette and politeness can influence the art and distance it from criticism and outside influences.

As I am not a sensei or instructor, I am some what out of place commenting on this, but it is important for our leaders in aikido to provide answers and guidance to students in this area. I think sometimes many instructors probably have been too institutionalized in the art of aikido to provide wisdom in this area. It was NOT the case for my instructors. In my first month of Aikido, Saotome sensei answered it in a very interesting way that sold me on staying the course, although it has been difficult at times to see things properly over the years!

Thanks again for your comments and respect Dennis!

Jorge Garcia
06-07-2006, 01:33 PM
Well, I didn't take the original question as you did. I took it that the person wanted some martial art that would be complimentary to Aikido. That's a whole different world than someone asking for another martial art to take because Aikido wasn't a complete system.

Mark

I wasn't referring to the original question but rather to some of the responses. By the way, I have your position in the reason for doing secondary arts. I feel fine with Aikido and have no concern about grappler's, karate strikes or Thai kick boxers. I read yesterday what the secret defense of martial arts is in Funakoshi senseis' book and that is the same defense I employ against all attacks. It has worked for me since I left home over 30 years ago without failing me once.
Best wishes,

Jorge Garcia
06-07-2006, 01:43 PM
I never knew that certain companies have certain techniques that are official use only. Hey, you get to learn something new every day. :)

On that topic (sorry for jumping off topic here), I wonder what would happen if the person being apprehended got very violent to the point of life-threatening and your son did use other techniques besides the official ones? In that instance, I think, knowing a martial art would be very beneficial. Hopefully you'd never have to use it, but like the old adage ... I'd rather have it and not have to use it than not have it and need it.

Mark


Actually, that has happened to my son. His boss and co-workers know he does Aikido. Once, they were in a terrific struggle with a very big guy. The company techniques were ineffective. When the guy started to topple both my son and his boss and they all fell down, the security boss yelled, " Robert, use your stuff !!!" My son used a nikyo from the ground and then rolled it into a kata osae and that was the end of that.
My son has been attacked in the mall, at a park and walking home (we live in Houston) and used Aikido successfully each time although he did inflict an injury one time on his assailant but he was only 17 at the time and didn't have the control that he does now.

Jorge Garcia
06-07-2006, 01:53 PM
"Aikido really cannot teach you to fight well or deal with the realities of many fights or situations."

That's a blanket statement, offered with no evidence, that can't be proven. Different teachers instruct in different ways and there are some very innovative Aikido teachers out there. My own instructor has incorporated into his Aikido moves against judo sweeps, close range punching, all kind of take downs and techniques that can be done from the ground, including techniques against those who resist Aikido locks and holds. He tested those out over 50 years against practitioners of all arts in his private training. What you are saying though may be true for a lot of people.

Kevin Leavitt
06-07-2006, 02:17 PM
fair enough Jorge.

I probably did not explain what I meant well enough. I am referring to traditional aikido methods as commonly practiced in most dojos. The type that Dennis Hooker refers to. I am focusing solely on the methodology and effciency of teaching. There are better, more efficient methodologies out there that can bring you up to speed faster than traditional aikido methods. I can offer plenty of evidence as I have experienced this myself.

Training with my instructors, they had the answers that you talk about too in aikido, it is not about the skill or techniques, or answer that are lacking, simply the methodology of transmission. The "bridging the gap" is what I am talking about. In my experiences, if you are solely concerned with specific issues of fighting and combat, there are better models.

That is all I was really trying to say. Not that aikido is incomplete or has a inability, just not the most efficient model.

statisticool
06-07-2006, 10:42 PM
That Ueshiba... couldn't fight at all.

*wink*

Guilty Spark
06-09-2006, 06:20 PM
Hey guys.

Lots of awesome points and perspectives. I'm big on seeing something from more than one point of view and I think this thread is a good example of how seeing something from a different perspective gives you a new way of looking at things.

I know I had my questions answered.

Just to clarify and sum up my points- The main reason I was asking about other martial arts was due to the possibility that I may not get to practice Aikido as much as I wanted to

I got side tracked with debating (somewhat over my head) the effectiveness of Aikido in self-defense and with limited exposure (IE my orange belt). Kevin I think you knew where I was coming from looking at the whole thing from a military limited-time need fast results perspective. There is still a good argument for sticking solely with Aikido as well, it's up to the individual in the end I figure.

Just a point about that. I think cross training or exposure to other martial arts will help an Aikido student defend themselves better against someone who may be proficient in said martial arts. It's one thing to defend yourself against a wild untrained"punch but I figure it's another story to defend yourself against someone who knows what their doing.

Mark Freeman
06-10-2006, 04:26 AM
I think cross training or exposure to other martial arts will help an Aikido student defend themselves better against someone who may be proficient in said martial arts. It's one thing to defend yourself against a wild untrained"punch but I figure it's another story to defend yourself against someone who knows what their doing.

I am interested in the concept that some in the martial arts world seem to have, that they really need to train themselves up against 'the skilled attacker'. Who are all these trained martial artists that go around attacking innocent bystanders? ;)

If you want to 'spar' with someone from another MA with aikido then perfect your aikido and see how well you can make it work against the different types of attack thrown at you. A long term project for sure, but worth it as in the end you will at least be profficient in 1 art.

A fight is not sparring, aikido used for real in a fight has no rules, if your aikido is good enough, the chances are you will come out of it fairly well. Reading Shioda Sensei's book Aikido Shugyo helped me appreciate this.

If anyone wants self defence in three months, aikido is not the art for you. I'm not sure what is in that short a time frame. And any art that gives an over inflated sense of confidence, could lead folk into standing and fighting when other options would be wiser.

The confidence to be effective with aikido can take a long time. But hey, that's just the nature of the art. Does any other MA out there invite as much 'missunderstanding' about it's effectiveness.

I totally agree with Dennis Hookers post, particularly in relation to good Scotch!! :D Don't mix Aikido with other martial arts there is nothing wrong with it as it is. If you have competent instruction your Aikido should be fine, like a fine single malt scotch it does not mix well with stuff, you just ruin the scotch.

Fine malt whiskey takes many years to develop, every last drop should be savoured. Aikido is similar.
In fact sitting sipping a good scotch after aikido practice induces the finest if internal glows. While you are doing this, you can ponder away to your hearts content :D

Just a few thoughts,

regards

Mark
p.s. it's early in the day..I haven't been drinking! ;)

Jorge Garcia
06-10-2006, 06:43 AM
I am interested in the concept that some in the martial arts world seem to have, that they really need to train themselves up against 'the skilled attacker'. Who are all these trained martial artists that go around attacking innocent bystanders? ;)

If you want to 'spar' with someone from another MA with aikido then perfect your aikido and see how well you can make it work against the different types of attack thrown at you. A long term project for sure, but worth it as in the end you will at least be proficient in 1 art.

A fight is not sparring, aikido used for real in a fight has no rules, if your aikido is good enough, the chances are you will come out of it fairly well. Reading Shioda Sensei's book Aikido Shugyo helped me appreciate this.

If anyone wants self defense in three months, aikido is not the art for you. I'm not sure what is in that short a time frame. And any art that gives an over inflated sense of confidence, could lead folk into standing and fighting when other options would be wiser.

The confidence to be effective with aikido can take a long time. But hey, that's just the nature of the art. Does any other MA out there invite as much 'misunderstanding' about it's effectiveness.

I totally agree with Dennis Hookers post, particularly in relation to good Scotch!! :D

Fine malt whiskey takes many years to develop, every last drop should be savored. Aikido is similar.
In fact sitting sipping a good scotch after aikido practice induces the finest if internal glows. While you are doing this, you can ponder away to your hearts content :D

Just a few thoughts,

regards

Mark
p.s. it's early in the day..I haven't been drinking! ;)

Mark,
What you have expressed is what I have said over and over in different ways. Aikido is enough for the ordinary person. By reading some threads, you would think the world has run amok with skilled experienced martial artists attacking innocent bystanders. A lot of people are worried about something that will never happen. I am 50 years old and have never been attacked by a BJJ person, a Karate person or a Wing Chun person. I have been in fights as a kid. I was raised in a neighborhood that was like some parts of the Bronx. We saw fights every day. I still remember seeing girls fighting with can openers trying to cut each others faces but in all that, I was never on the ground (except once from a good right cross and I got up quick) and I was never attacked by another martial artist. It could happen but those scenes of large groups of martial artists fighting are from the movies. I am not saying it couldn't happen. I am saying that it probably won't. I was at a restaurant once in a group dinner and there was a guy who commandeered the conversation and started talking about all the fights he had been in. When he was finished, the Shihan said to him in front of everyone, "I am from a land where they practice fighting arts as part of the culture and I have never been in a fight in all my life." Everyone got quiet in there and it was apparent what he was trying to communicate.
In real fighting, there aren't any rules and one reason we didn't like close contact was because the hands can hit in many places where sport martial arts don't allow and the mouth is also an instrument that can bite when two people are too close or are wresting. In the gang culture where they are almost never alone, rolling on the ground is a bad idea. A well trained Aikidoist will do just fine in the world I grew up in. Heck, I did fine and I didn't learn Aikido until after I left that world. The biggest thing I learned there was to stay in groups, don't look at anybody in the eyes for more than a glance, always know what's going on around you, and stay away from any trouble you see and anyone you know is trouble.
Best,

Kevin Leavitt
06-10-2006, 10:29 AM
IMO, it is not the trained martial artist in the world that you have to worry about, it is the guy that is not trained, but knows how to seize the advantage and exploit your weakness that is your concern.

Having trained this way on occasion I can tell you that my 12 plus years of martial arts training did not amount to much once I was at the disadvantage.

In some scenarios I died, in others I was able to turn the tables. Situational training is a unique perspective on things and frankly is not really a way to train unless you are have indentified a risk in a particular area that has a high probability of occuring.

You cannot prepare for every type of situation you will incur. At best I think you can prepare you mind to act appropriately and do what you do out of habits developed. It might require you to die a noble and respectful death and have the people you left behind reflecting on the positive impact you left on the world. It might have you surviving, turning the tables and living to tell the story on another day. Budo prepares us adequately in that way, but I don't really believe it will do much to prepare for an actual assault.

In the military we spend our lives really training, learning the skills of our trade, learning how to be leaders, followers, learning how to follow a code of values and respect. We spend time with our families in our communities and generally being good citizens (most of at least!). When the time comes for us to fight, we use that preparation and life we have led, put it aside, do what we have to do. It might see us in a bad situation, or a good situation. We may find we were trained well, or we might find we did not do enough, or we may make a mistake.

Budo is really about the same thing.

Situational training is fine, but being a warrior or a budoka requires much more than learning a few effective skills if you want to survive HOLISITICALLY.

DonMagee
06-10-2006, 06:32 PM
Mark,
I am 50 years old and have never been attacked by a BJJ person, a Karate person or a Wing Chun person.

Ahh but you see, as a requirement of my bjj training, I have to find and attack random people on th street every day. We are barbarians you know! ;)

But seriously, that is a good point. Most people will never be attacked. But the question comes: Why do so many martial art instructors (aikido suffers this as well) make such a big deal about the self defense portion of their art, if self defense is really not a concern? Shouldn't we tell these people to go get some stun gun training? If somone goes into the majority of dojo's in america and tells the sensei they are there for self defense, they will usually be told that their art can make you invincible (more of less). This is why we see hundreds of people who seem to think they are invincible because they study aikido, or TKD, or BJJ. If self defense is a major concern, then it should be addressed to the highest level, including an attack by chuck norris, bruce lee, and helio grace at the same time.

Jorge Garcia
06-10-2006, 08:29 PM
Ahh but you see, as a requirement of my bjj training, I have to find and attack random people on th street every day. We are barbarians you know! ;)

But seriously, that is a good point. Most people will never be attacked. But the question comes: Why do so many martial art instructors (aikido suffers this as well) make such a big deal about the self defense portion of their art, if self defense is really not a concern? Shouldn't we tell these people to go get some stun gun training? If someone goes into the majority of dojo's in america and tells the sensei they are there for self defense, they will usually be told that their art can make you invincible (more of less). This is why we see hundreds of people who seem to think they are invincible because they study aikido, or TKD, or BJJ. If self defense is a major concern, then it should be addressed to the highest level, including an attack by chuck norris, bruce lee, and helio grace at the same time.

Thanks Don,
When you wrote,"Why do so many martial art instructors (aikido suffers this as well) make such a big deal about the self defense portion of their art, if self defense is really not a concern? Shouldn't we tell these people to go get some stun gun training? If somone goes into the majority of dojo's in america and tells the sensei they are there for self defense, they will usually be told that their art can make you invincible (more of less). This is why we see hundreds of people who seem to think they are invincible because they study aikido, or TKD, or BJJ."

This makes my point. We should tell people the truth and I do. I talk to them every day and tell them the truth. 98 % of the walk ins have the wrong idea about what martial arts can do and what they are. I know they can help you with self defense but not in the short run and they won't make you unbeatable but if you train long and hard and God is watching over you, yes, in that once in a lifetime incident, I believe Aikido could be the vehicle that could save you if your life was threatened, on your feet or on the ground. Just don't get in two or three of those once in a lifetime incidents because then, you might get hurt!
Best wishes,

Ron Tisdale
06-12-2006, 07:24 AM
If somone goes into the majority of dojo's in america and tells the sensei they are there for self defense, they will usually be told that their art can make you invincible (more of less).

I myself have never heard this. And I practice a fairly rigorous style of aikido. But my teacher, the senior students, the visiting shihan...none of them have ever made this statement or anything like it.

I suggest that you are pulling our legs. The alternative is...

Best,
Ron

Suwariwazaman
06-12-2006, 07:27 AM
Hey everyone. As a fellow martial artist I have been practicing for about 15 years. Up until 2002 I had never practiced Aikido.I really enjoy Aikido, and I know it is effective in a fight. I spent 8 years in Taekwondo, and 9 years in Kenpo. Using what is appropriate for the actual situation will be more realistic, and practical. As we all know you don't use a knife in gun fight, but I do believe a level of zanshin, and I agree long term training is the key. Noone can disagree with that but to learn true self-defense or "combat" in 2-3 months for sure is not realistic even for the protege'. Someone might be proficient in their respective art, but to actualize it is another. I have been an instructor, in both Taekwondo, and Kenpo and in no way do I make my students believe the art they learn is invincible, because we are all human, and can experience pain, unless you are Tank Abbott, or just plain numb. I see alot of people that train and think they are invincible, and have a false sense of security. My advice is be humble, use your mind first. :D

Regards Jamie

jonreading
06-12-2006, 10:51 AM
Self-defense is a concern, moreso than it should be. But yet, everyday we hear terrible stories on the news of muggings, rapings, murders, and so forth. We don't hear the comparative statistics that make a big-city murder about as likely as a stroke or car accident, or a shark attack. So many people come to dojo in fear looking for the perfect defense; in joking I always tell them, "Crane kick. If done properly, no can defense." (terrible Karate Kid joke...) Serioulsy though, many dojo take advantage of the sensationalism of self-defense to attract students. I would tend to agree the promotional angle exists much more than we would like to think...

Mato-san
06-12-2006, 11:46 AM
Without going to deep on the subject, BJJ, Jujuitsu or other complimentry arts. Dont go there until you master basics in Aikido! The more different from Aikido the better (so they say). But me, I say master the basic waza of Aikido and incorporate it with traditional jujitsiu or anything that comes close, add thai kickboxing and you are a winner. BUT NEVER TAKE ANYTHING UNTIL YOU ARE FAMILIAR (and comfortable) WITH THE FULL CRITERIA oF your AIKIDO! Just an opinion from a loweeee!
Ask G................... man ,he has all the answers! (Ranked TOO!)

Aristeia
06-12-2006, 01:12 PM
I myself have never heard this. And I practice a fairly rigorous style of aikido. But my teacher, the senior students, the visiting shihan...none of them have ever made this statement or anything like it.

I suggest that you are pulling our legs. The alternative is...

Best,
Ron

I have. No one actually says "you'll be invincible" but the effect is the same: "the art allows the small guy to throw the big guy,you'lll learn to defend against multiples and yeah we do knife defense" etc etc. The totality of the response - without the appropriate discussion of how size strength, resistance and the randomness of a fight can alter things from day to day practice, corresponds in the fertile mind of an MA newbie to - you'll be able to take on all comers.

Kevin Leavitt
06-12-2006, 01:51 PM
Jamie wrote:

Noone can disagree with that but to learn true self-defense or "combat" in 2-3 months for sure is not realistic even for the protege'.

Yes you can, we do it all the time with the Army Combatives program. Again, we are talking about a very limited scope of skills that can get you by in combat and also pretty much hold your own in general. It can be done. We teach a 40 hour a week period of instruction. So, for the average guy that does a couple of classes three times a week for an hour or two, this might take 9 months or a year.

Self defense and basic fighting, combat skills are not all that difficult to teach.

Matt McDowell wrote:

Without going to deep on the subject, BJJ, Jujuitsu or other complimentry arts. Dont go there until you master basics in Aikido!

I'd also say the exact opposite, don't go to aikido until you master BJJ!

I think it all depends on the individual, their abiities, time and goals. Also the instructor's abilities and quality.

True learning aikido can be a good base to understanding the principles of dynamic movement and center, balance and all that...it will take you a long way into learning an art such as BJJ. But with a decent BJJ instructor you are doing these things already.

BJJ can tend to get to lean toward power, muscles etc...but done correctly it really is not much different from aikido.

Ron Tisdale
06-12-2006, 01:54 PM
Nope. Definitely haven't seen that where I train. But I have seen something similar to what you mention somewhere I used to train. It was when the UFC first came out...I remember a bunch of students standing around discussing how they felt the Sensei would fair...it seemed a bit idealistic at the time...more like a pipe dream now.

In most of the places I am familiar with now, that kind of idealism/naivete would simply draw some rather strange looks, and perhaps get you pulled aside for some much needed coaching on what Budo is and is not.

Best,
Ron

pfarthing6
06-13-2006, 03:39 AM
New guy here.

What would y'all say to a schedule with...
Aikido 2x a week
Judo 1x a week
Taichi Daily

I've practiced them all separately at one time or another and found myself rotating through the list over the years.

Taichi offers great MA foundation, but generally lacks practitioners that want to explore the grosser applications.

The stand-up Judo practice always reminded me of a more robust push hands and through Aikido I actually get to do a lot of the joint locks and throws in the form.

The reasons why I tend to migrate from one to the other is probably obvious and is rooted in wanting to have it all I guess.

I suppose the drawback is the progress one would make in pursuing all these at the same time. But what I'm really after is a 'holistic' approach: internal training + external application.

Belts aren't important and likely one day I will do Taichi exclusively. But right now I want to make progress in the self-defense thing and keep the Taichi real too :D

any comments?

DonMagee
06-13-2006, 08:03 AM
I would say you are not doing enough aikido or judo to really gain skill at a reasonable pace. I'd suggest having a main art and then a secondary, but any more then that and you are really wasting your time. (With the exception of maintaining existing skill)

I started with aikido. I was going 3 days a week, and I was gaining skill. Then I added judo 2 days a week. Still no issues in skill gain. Then I added bjj training. Now it started getting tricky, focusing in on the skills I needed to develop for each art become hard. Then I tried to add more MMA instruction with boxing and mauy thai focus and found that I was really just wasting my time (although getting one hell of a work out). I dropped a lot off my schedual and found that I started to gain skill quickly again. Currently I work bjj/mma and sometimes judo (although no longer formally, just stop by a few judo clubs now and then to practice and keep my throws up to par for bjj/mma competition). I'm training 4 days a week and getting much better results then my 6 days a week previous.

Another thing to concider is the level of instruction. If you only go to class one day a week, and you dont practice a lot on your own time (which is hard to do without a partner as judo really requires a partner), you will find your instructor might not take you seriously or offer any real instruction to you. You will just become a guy who pays his bills. Or you may find you are insulting that instructor. I ran into this as have others I know. It can be very insulting to a instructor.

Kevin Leavitt
06-13-2006, 02:39 PM
I train on average of 5 days a week for about three hours a day...so that is about 18 hours a week. Doesn't include classes that I teach or assist with or seminars. So I probably train something like 60 to 80 hours per month depending on the month and my schedule.

Also try and augment with yoga, plyometrics, and other things when i can.

Still wish I had more time to train!

ikkitosennomusha
06-13-2006, 04:06 PM
Mixing various martial arts? Not a good idea. Why? Well, for one, you will never master any of the arts you attempt and as different arts evoke different philosophies, it will only create confusion.

If you want to master Aikido, only focus on IT and dedicate yourself 110%. If you are not worried about a great number of things, then go for it. Just my advice.

Chris Li
06-13-2006, 04:49 PM
Mixing various martial arts? Not a good idea. Why? Well, for one, you will never master any of the arts you attempt and as different arts evoke different philosophies, it will only create confusion.

If you want to master Aikido, only focus on IT and dedicate yourself 110%. If you are not worried about a great number of things, then go for it. Just my advice.

Morihei Ueshiba seemed to do OK mixing various arts. So did his teacher, Sokaku Takeda. Kenji Tomiki and Minoru Mochizuki mixed various arts as well, but maybe they were just confused :).

Time was, almost all of Ueshiba's and Takeda's students had backgrounds in various arts, and nobody thought twice about it.

Best,

Chris

Don_Modesto
06-13-2006, 05:56 PM
Morihei Ueshiba seemed to do OK mixing various arts. So did his teacher, Sokaku Takeda. Kenji Tomiki and Minoru Mochizuki mixed various arts as well, but maybe they were just confused :).

Time was, almost all of Ueshiba's and Takeda's students had backgrounds in various arts, and nobody thought twice about it.

So..."traditional" means, egads!--"little continuity"? Innovation?! CHANGING WHAT YOUR TEACHER TAUGHT YOU?!

Say it ain't so!

Quick, what's the address of that SOKE council? My money's in the mail!

;)

pfarthing6
06-13-2006, 06:11 PM
I think the controversy over cross-training is two fold. 1) the western person is impatient and has something to prove; 2) the eastern person still carries the style vs. style rivalry baggage accumulated over the last few centuries.

I guess with MMA we get a combination of both impatience and penis envy. Nah, those guys train hard. But they are shameless self-promoters with a very narrow view of the martial arts.

Personally I donít care for belts, ranks, tournaments, or any of that. I guess Iím with Bruce Lee about the whole style thing too. Each of us must develop our own and seek our own path. Some would say that Bruce was a Wing Tsun expert. Maybe he was, for a while. But he discarded much of his classical training without giving up any of his martial ability. In fact, through exploring other arts he became even better. Though he never was an ďexpertĒ at any of them, that he was an expert martial artist there is no doubt.

Being a great martial artist requires a lifelong commitment. But I donít see it as a commitment to a style, itís a commitment oneself to persevere, to continually learn and improve, to have an open mind, to have patience, and to find a way to overcome our own worst enemy: ignorance.

CNYMike
06-13-2006, 11:36 PM
New guy here.

What would y'all say to a schedule with...
Aikido 2x a week
Judo 1x a week
Taichi Daily

I've practiced them all separately at one time or another and found myself rotating through the list over the years.

Taichi offers great MA foundation, but generally lacks practitioners that want to explore the grosser applications.

The stand-up Judo practice always reminded me of a more robust push hands and through Aikido I actually get to do a lot of the joint locks and throws in the form.

The reasons why I tend to migrate from one to the other is probably obvious and is rooted in wanting to have it all I guess.

I suppose the drawback is the progress one would make in pursuing all these at the same time. But what I'm really after is a 'holistic' approach: internal training + external application.

Belts aren't important and likely one day I will do Taichi exclusively. But right now I want to make progress in the self-defense thing and keep the Taichi real too :D

any comments?

If you have the time, the money, and your instructors don't have cows about your doing other things, then go for it.

Myself, right now I'm doing Aikido, Jun Fan/JKD, and Inosanto Kali each once a week; and Pentjak Silat Serak twice a week. Serak will be back to once a week when the college karate class I train with resumes in the Fall. I ended up doing this by doing what I was interested in and training with whom I wanted to continue training with. Ten years ago, all I did was karate; I started in Kali in 1997. I added other things over time. Jun Fan/JKD is the latest addition -- after hearing about it for years in my Kali instructors' digressions and asides, I thought I'd give it a whirl! I'm also a creature of habit; once i start doing something, I keep at it.

I may delete stuff someday, but right now, I am not doing anything I want to drop.

As to how quickly you progress in various arts, well, O Sensei said you shouldn't be in a hurry in your Aikido training anyway. (I can't quote him exactly because I loaned my copy of Secrets of Aikido and that person isn't done with it yet.) There are a wide range of opinions on this issue. I think if you are doing what you want to do and enjoy it, then do it and don't worry about what anyone else says.

Just my 2p.

Kevin Leavitt
06-14-2006, 02:14 PM
Brad wrote:

Mixing various martial arts? Not a good idea. Why? Well, for one, you will never master any of the arts you attempt and as different arts evoke different philosophies, it will only create confusion.

I mix em all the time! I have found that it makes you think hard about what you are learning, and work harder to understand. It may slow you down some, or cause some obstacles, but I think it really only causes you to face those obstacles you'd incur anyway sooner.

I think it is harder to train this way as it can cause conflict and frustration, but pain can be growth. I personally prefer the challenge rather than being comfortable in a predictable pattern that can cause complaceny to set in. I think aikido can be very prone to this as we tend to be polite to a certain degree in our training.

Ron Tisdale
06-14-2006, 02:24 PM
Hi Don and Chris,

The funny thing is, there was a similar discussion on the yoshinkan board, and strange enough, there was someone touting the benefits of doing one thing. Something about you'll never master aikido if you split your focus. I don't know where some of these ideas come from. Mits Yamashita is in the Yoshinkan...he certainly doesn't follow that rule.

Best,
Ron

Richard Langridge
06-14-2006, 03:28 PM
Personally I'm not going to cross train until I've done a year or two of Aikido on its own. After that I think I'd like to try out some other stuff, it can't hurt. I'm guessing it also can't hurt for those who've been doing Aikido for a while to try out some other stuff, if only to get that feeling of being a beginner again.

Don_Modesto
06-14-2006, 05:01 PM
the yoshinkan board


Hey, Ron,

What's that url? Observers welcome?

George S. Ledyard
06-14-2006, 08:01 PM
Hi Don and Chris,

The funny thing is, there was a similar discussion on the yoshinkan board, and strange enough, there was someone touting the benefits of doing one thing. Something about you'll never master aikido if you split your focus. I don't know where some of these ideas come from. Mits Yamashita is in the Yoshinkan...he certainly doesn't follow that rule.

Best,
Ron
I think that this attitude is pretty ironic in that O-Sensei wouldn't take you on as a student unless you already had a substantial background in at least one other art. The fact that so many Aikido folks have no real exposure to other arts is responsible for various weaknesses we see in contemporary Aikido.

xuzen
06-14-2006, 09:17 PM
Hi Don and Chris,
The funny thing is, there was a similar discussion on the yoshinkan board, and strange enough, there was someone touting the benefits of doing one thing. Something about you'll never master aikido if you split your focus. I don't know where some of these ideas come from. Mits Yamashita is in the Yoshinkan...he certainly doesn't follow that rule.
Best,
Ron

Ron,

Morihei Ueshiba was never a one art guy, Shioda Gozo was also not a one art guy... how on earth did they come out with such ideas? Just curious...

Boon.

CNYMike
06-14-2006, 11:08 PM
Mixing various martial arts? Not a good idea. Why? Well, for one, you will never master any of the arts you attempt and as different arts evoke different philosophies, it will only create confusion.

Only if you don't learn to compartmentalize, one of my little projects. When in Aikido, do Aikido; when in another system, do that. There's no confusion at all. I expericen more "confusion" pver which system of ettiquette to use than which martial art I am doing, and even then, it's a very minor annoyance.

Ron Tisdale
06-15-2006, 07:22 AM
Hi guys,

I'm with Mike (above) on this one...compartmentalize. Do what you are supposed to do in each particular environment.

I didn't say anything on the yosh board, since there are people there posting with much more yoshinkan experience than I, but thankfully there were some others who spoke up. It's a yahoogroups.com group. I think you can join by clicking a link once you search for the group. It's actually pretty good reading.

I don't know where stuff like this comes from. The fanatacism in martail art is a little scary sometimes.

Best,
Ron

Jorge Garcia
06-15-2006, 08:26 AM
Hey, Ron,

What's that url? Observers welcome?

I mean this in a humorous way but if that Yoshinkan board lets our group in, they would start to have threads like

"Yoshinkan doesn't work in a fight"
"Don't waste your time practicing Yoshinkan"
"Yoshinkan doesn't work when..."
"Mixing Yoshinkan with other martial arts"

That would really get their group excited over there about all the other possibilities they should be working on :eek:

Ron Tisdale
06-15-2006, 09:06 AM
:)

Don't worry, they are just as contentious at times as any other group. They don't need any help in that regard...none of us do!

Best,
Ron

MM
06-15-2006, 09:08 AM
The URL is:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/yoshinkan/

It's a Yahoo group. Yahoo has gone through changes recently and hasn't been operating at 100%. If you find something isn't working right, it isn't the group, but probably Yahoo.

The group setting is that membership requires approval. But messages from members do not. The description states, "This list is for the discussion of Yoshinkan Aikido."

That should get anyone started, right?

Mark

Ron Tisdale
06-15-2006, 09:10 AM
absolutely. Thanks for taking the time to do what I was too lazy/busy to do!

Best,
Ron

MM
06-15-2006, 09:47 AM
absolutely. Thanks for taking the time to do what I was too lazy/busy to do!

Best,
Ron

Ron,
Hello! I didn't think you were lazy. I just happened to have that fresh on the computer because I was reading some of that thread the last few days. It's irritating because Yahoo kept erroring out. Ugh. So, I copied the link here. :)

Hope things are going well for you. And back to the topic at hand, er, computer screen, I'm starting regular kali/silat training at the end of this month. And I'm excited about it.

How does that work for me? It actually works out very well. I'm still continuing my Aikido and I'm hitting an area where it's refreshingly new (sort of ... old themes but new way of looking at it) yet amazingly irritating. LOL. It's like being a beginner all over again and trying to do rolls.

But kali is cool and interesting. It's an aspect of martial arts that appeals to me. I'm not learning it because I think Aikido is lacking. No, Aikido is a whole art that is all encompassing. In fact, I hope kali turns out to be just as all encompassing an art that Aikido is. I don't know, though, because I'm just starting.

Do I wish to blend the two? Not right now. Especially since I don't know kali. It would be unwise to blend two things when you only have a semi-decent grasp of one and no grasp of the other.

As with all things, time will tell. What it will tell I haven't a clue. LOL. But it should be a fun, hard, and wild ride. Glad I'm still young enough to enjoy the hard work and play.

Mark

CNYMike
06-15-2006, 09:59 AM
I mean this in a humorous way but if that Yoshinkan board lets our group in, they would start to have threads like

"Yoshinkan doesn't work in a fight"
"Don't waste your time practicing Yoshinkan"
"Yoshinkan doesn't work when..."
"Mixing Yoshinkan with other martial arts"

That would really get their group excited over there about all the other possibilities they should be working on :eek:

:) If they let someone like me in there, you'd see things like .....

"You might be a Yoshinkan addict if .... "
"You might be a Yoshinkan group addict if .... "
"Top ten signs of too much Yoshinkan....."

:)

CNYMike
06-15-2006, 10:20 AM
..... I'm starting regular kali/silat training at the end of this month. And I'm excited about it.

How does that work for me? It actually works out very well. I'm still continuing my Aikido and I'm hitting an area where it's refreshingly new (sort of ... old themes but new way of looking at it) yet amazingly irritating. LOL. It's like being a beginner all over again and trying to do rolls.

But kali is cool and interesting. It's an aspect of martial arts that appeals to me. I'm not learning it because I think Aikido is lacking. No, Aikido is a whole art that is all encompassing. In fact, I hope kali turns out to be just as all encompassing an art that Aikido is. I don't know, though, because I'm just starting.


There are a couple of different definitions of "complete" at work here.

In the sense that you address all the ranges of combat and all the possible technques, no most Aikido is not complete. There are just too many things you do NOT see in a formal setting. Yes, Aikido can very from teacher to teacher, and some do pile in things like kickboxing and ground work. I'm not denying that. But in straight, "classical" Aikido, you don't see it.

Does this mean an Aikidoka is helpless against that stuff? Not necessarily, provided you go beyond learning techniques and internalize the principles; that allows you to come up with techniques. If Aiki is at your spinal cord level, and you don't have to think about it, in theory, you would have a chance, but that assumes you have reached that point.

But a system can be considered "complete" and still have it's area of specialization. Thai Boxing, BJJ, western boxing can all be considered "complete" in and of themselves even though there are things they don't cover at all. There's nothing wrong with them -- there are things they do and things they don't do. For instance, my kali instructor loves Boxing, not just to watch it but to do it. He will tell you what he loves about it and what it's good at. He will also tell you that there are things it doesn't have answers for.

So in one sense Aikido is "complete," but in another it is not. But even then, note that I have NEVER referred to it with words like "inadequate," "lacking," "weak," or any other terms that carry a negative connotation. There's nothing wrong with it; it is what it is.


Do I wish to blend the two? Not right now. Especially since I don't know kali. It would be unwise to blend two things when you only have a semi-decent grasp of one and no grasp of the other.


Well, if the system you're studying is anything like Inosanto Kali, it comes blended. That is, there is a huge empty hands section that includes grappling, and you will see many of the same throws and locks you see in Aikido -- not exactly the same and done with different reference points ie a kickboxing perspective most likely. Of course, Aikido addresses that material all the time, whereas who knows how often you will cycle around through Dumog. But in terms of areas of techniques, you shouldn't have to worry about blending anything -- it's blended.

..... that assumes, of course, you are either in or is something like Inosanto Kali which draws on the traditional Filipino empty hand styles. However, some systems, like Modern Arnis, use karate as their base for empty hands. The Filipinos, it seems, are very good at using other people's arts; most FMA sytems are hybrids. Where are you doing this? If the school has a link, I'd like to see it.




As with all things, time will tell. What it will tell I haven't a clue. LOL. But it should be a fun, hard, and wild ride. Glad I'm still young enough to enjoy the hard work and play.

Mark

Absolutely. And don't be surprised if what you get out of it is different from the reason you started doing it.

Good luck!

DonMagee
06-15-2006, 12:23 PM
Ron,
Hello! I didn't think you were lazy. I just happened to have that fresh on the computer because I was reading some of that thread the last few days. It's irritating because Yahoo kept erroring out. Ugh. So, I copied the link here. :)

Hope things are going well for you. And back to the topic at hand, er, computer screen, I'm starting regular kali/silat training at the end of this month. And I'm excited about it.

How does that work for me? It actually works out very well. I'm still continuing my Aikido and I'm hitting an area where it's refreshingly new (sort of ... old themes but new way of looking at it) yet amazingly irritating. LOL. It's like being a beginner all over again and trying to do rolls.

But kali is cool and interesting. It's an aspect of martial arts that appeals to me. I'm not learning it because I think Aikido is lacking. No, Aikido is a whole art that is all encompassing. In fact, I hope kali turns out to be just as all encompassing an art that Aikido is. I don't know, though, because I'm just starting.

Do I wish to blend the two? Not right now. Especially since I don't know kali. It would be unwise to blend two things when you only have a semi-decent grasp of one and no grasp of the other.

As with all things, time will tell. What it will tell I haven't a clue. LOL. But it should be a fun, hard, and wild ride. Glad I'm still young enough to enjoy the hard work and play.

Mark

When I'm sparing or competing, I dont think, OK now I'll do aikido, or now I'm doing bjj. I'm just doing. I never blended any of my arts. I just do what comes natural to the situation. I wouldn't worry about blending arts or keeping them seperate. Just train.

Ron Tisdale
06-15-2006, 12:31 PM
Well, I spar infrequently at best (aikido randori doesn't count), and I never compete anymore.

But in training, I find it best not to throw my aikido uke with osoto gari during aikido class. The 7th dan instructor tends to get slightly miffed when I do that...and if there's one person you don't want to make slightly miffed...

Best,
Ron

DonMagee
06-15-2006, 12:42 PM
Well, I spar infrequently at best (aikido randori doesn't count), and I never compete anymore.

But in training, I find it best not to throw my aikido uke with osoto gari during aikido class. The 7th dan instructor tends to get slightly miffed when I do that...and if there's one person you don't want to make slightly miffed...

Best,
Ron

Yea, I woulnd't suggest that. Unless of course your instructor decides to teach Osoto gari :-)

Ron Tisdale
06-15-2006, 12:44 PM
;) Not beyond the realm of possibility...

B,
R

MM
06-15-2006, 02:02 PM
Well, I spar infrequently at best (aikido randori doesn't count), and I never compete anymore.

But in training, I find it best not to throw my aikido uke with osoto gari during aikido class. The 7th dan instructor tends to get slightly miffed when I do that...and if there's one person you don't want to make slightly miffed...

Best,
Ron

ROTFL! Yes, I would agree that the 7th degree is not one to miff.

I agree with the training, too. In Aikido, train aikido. In kali, train kali. By "train", I mean the set techniques that you are working on. Depending on participant level, jiyu waza, randori, etc can sometimes integrate many things. :)

Mark

Lyle Bogin
06-15-2006, 02:05 PM
I think that this attitude is pretty ironic in that O-Sensei wouldn't take you on as a student unless you already had a substantial background in at least one other art. The fact that so many Aikido folks have no real exposure to other arts is responsible for various weaknesses we see in contemporary Aikido.

Wow, do I agree with that.

JamesDavid
06-20-2006, 06:43 PM
The ostensible reason was to identify those with skill, but I think insistence on previous exposure was really aimed identify students with the potential to learn.

Tony Wagstaffe
08-06-2006, 11:03 AM
I would suggest training in Tomiki/Shodokan aikido for about three years 3 - 4 2 hour sessions per week and don't be afraid of mixing it with willing judo, karate, B.J.J. Wing Chun and so forth players to play with you'll soon get good at aikido. Tip: don't be afraid to lose you'll learn a lot by doing so! ;)

Gregy
01-12-2007, 04:10 PM
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is Aikido on the ground.

the principles of BJJ are the same as Aikido. Using your opponents energy against them etc.

That's the way to go!

Michael Douglas
01-13-2007, 09:58 AM
Necromancy! ... for nothing.

Erik Calderon
01-15-2007, 08:40 PM
I think mixing is great, as long as you are sure that, that is what you want to do.

It's easy to get confused, and overloaded with "information."

While I was in Japan, I did a little Ninjutsu and a little bit of Judo, not to mention I did a few other arts when I was young.

All that training has helped me get better at what I want to do...Aikido.

Aristeia
01-15-2007, 09:20 PM
what's with all the necroposting lately?

Keith R Lee
01-16-2007, 08:30 AM
I'm just waiting for one of these new people to dredge up the "Aikido does not work at all in a fight" thread. We let it go after it crested a 1000 posts.

Kevin Leavitt
01-16-2007, 01:22 PM
Keith, I have been waiting and waiting for that one to come back up as well!

Man I have got to get a life. Looks like we think alike!

I think the only time that mixing doesn't work is if you are studying a two arts and at least one of them is loaded with B.S. You get confused because it conflicts with common sense.

I suppose if you are a rote beginner and have two left martial feet in the beginning it could be somewhat of a mental overload, but I think most can handle mixing as long as the arts are alive and based on sound principals.

Kevin Leavitt
01-16-2007, 01:23 PM
Keith the rule is, that none of US can dredge up that post, it MUST BE some unsuspecting person that is new here! At least that is the code of ethics I am following! :)

Keith R Lee
01-16-2007, 03:12 PM
Hey Kevin,

Yeah, I'm trying to hold to that rule myself. It sure is tempting though!

Speaking of rote beginners...

A SBG certified coach/trainer moved to where I live last year and set up shop. A few of our Sambo guys started training with him when he got here last year and I started training with him as well recently. Great guy, good technique, excellent instruction. That being said, it's been interesting watching people new to MAs in general come in and have the SBG way/method be their first experience to MAs. It just seems so different from my introduction (which, now that I think about it, is going to be 10 years ago this year. Crap! I turn 29 too, this year already sucks!)

These new guys only have images of the UFC in their minds; brash, aggressive, and young. They stand in stark contrast to the people I encountered in Aikido many years ago. Aikido seems to bring the beginner in very gently; it accomodates and makes room for them. In contrast, MMA dumps people into the deep end and expects them to swim or drown. The turnover rate at the SBG is high, and there is no one there is not a 20-40 year old fit male. Their desire is purely for effectivness and efficiancy in as short of amount of time as possible. It's not better or worse...just different.

It makes me think about prior threads on Aikiweb about a "fighting system" vs. budo. Particularly: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9308

It seems to me that alot of these new, young guys want the competition/intensity of MMA/grappling but at some level under all that, in which they don't want to talk about, they still desire the discipline/focus of budo. Something to give all the training meaning in some way.

Not really going anywhere with that, just rambling...

Ron Tisdale
01-16-2007, 03:16 PM
Good rambling...no need to go anywhere in particular. Just currious...what do you think your aikido training and budo mindset bring to the SBG environment. Anything? Nothing?

Best,
Ron (much respect for you hardcore guys out there)

CNYMike
01-16-2007, 06:22 PM
.... it's been interesting watching people new to MAs in general come in and have the SBG way/method be their first experience to MAs. It just seems so different from my introduction (which, now that I think about it, is going to be 10 years ago this year. Crap! I turn 29 too, this year already sucks!)


There are still plenty of Aikido and TMA dojo out there providing people their first "introduction" to MA; it's not like everyone is starting with MMA.


.....It seems to me that alot of these new, young guys want the competition/intensity of MMA/grappling but at some level under all that, in which they don't want to talk about, they still desire the discipline/focus of budo. Something to give all the training meaning in some way.

Not really going anywhere with that, just rambling...

One thing to remember is that even training in MMA, AFAIK, getting ready to compete ramps training up to a whole other level beyond just going to class twice a week. The people you see on the UFC were pro before they were invited to compete at the UFC; "pro" means you have to have a certain number of wins under your belt.

Not really going anywhere; just providing some perspective.

Keith R Lee
01-17-2007, 06:53 AM
Good rambling...no need to go anywhere in particular. Just currious...what do you think your aikido training and budo mindset bring to the SBG environment. Anything? Nothing?




Well, I definitely think it brings something. A few things actually. First and foremost, I've already got years of training under my belt, even if it's of a completely different variety. It just translates into me being comfortable and confident in basic body mechanics, movement, etc. that new guys have to learn, just like any martial art.

I'd also say my Aikido/budo training has given me more discipline and patience then both new and regular students. In budo you are told, right from the get go, that it is a long path and one that does not end. There is a much greater awareness that it is a pursuit of a lifetime, whereas I wonder how many of the guys I'm training with at the SBG will be there in a year. Which is funny because the coach very much has a life-long mindset. He'll talk about wanting to still be able to box when he's 55, playing it smart, careful, and conservative. However, that mindset is never really explained/transferred to the students.

On a purely technical level I will say that one thing I feel I have over everyone there, except for the top 3-4 guys who have been training BJJ for years, is ukemi. But not in the traditional sense. When I was uchi deshi, I remember one of the biggest things that developed/changed for me was my ukemi. Sure, I grew sharper and more technical in my application of techniques, but where I feel that I grew/developed the most was in my ukemi skills. Not just in the pure rote, mechanical sense, but in terms of a sensitivity and openness to my partner. Particularly because I was uke fro my sensei every class and he had the habit of changing technique in mid-movement, just to see if I was on my toes. Really good ukemi, IMO, is marked by a sort of hyper-awareness and intuitive-anticipation of what your partner is about to do. It's a high level of sensitivity that can't just be explained, it has to be learned over a long time. Now it's not the type where someone touches you and then you just auto-uke, but a real connection between shite and uke.

This helps me a TON in grappling/MMA. By having this type of sensitivity towards my partner, I'm able to react to their movements very quickly, or even anticipate their movements and try to move ahead of them. It's a skill that is eventually developed in grappling I think, but one that just sort of happens on its own. In my experience (admittedly limited) grappling people don't talk about it, yet all high level practitioners have it. It's the sort of thing that is just expected to develop over time, if the person is good enough and dedicated enough. Honestly, I wonder if a lot of them even know what it is they are doing. They might see it as a natural offshoot of their development in grappling, whereas I see it as a different, specific skill set all together. I think it is a big advantage that Aikido in particular, and Judo to some extent, have over other martial arts. I don't think someone coming to BJJ/MMA/grappling from something like Karate is going to have this same ukemi-based skill set.

The longer I stay with competitive, sport based martial arts, the more I look at them and my Aikido/budo training and feel as though both are incomplete, for me at least. I need the competition, aggressiveness, and ability to test my techniques in a "live" environment that the sports provide. Yet, I also desire the cultivation of self, focus, and mindset that budo provides. It's a dissonance that I am unable to reconcile at this point. I'll just keep training and hope it works itself out someday.

Ron Tisdale
01-17-2007, 07:00 AM
Thank you for that answer Keith.

Again, much respect.

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
01-17-2007, 08:18 AM
My experiences pretty much parallel Keith's. I will tell you that I am able to grasp the new techniques very rapidly as I understand kokyu and center, and alignment much better than the newer guys.

Actually i was having a conversation about breathing with my students a few hours ago. Most of them strain and grunt, I think I learned a great deal about flow, energy, and breathing that helps technique.

I was able to get to blue belt in BJJ in about 6 months with no prior experience and no really formal instruction, as I have had a few seminars and I train out of books, videos, and the occassional instructor when I can find them.

I have a much better view on teaching and the ability to instruct because of aikido as well. That is, I understand the dynamics of the movements, connecting hips, center, etc...and I can break it down and explain it.

The hard part that everyone must go through is developing your game. that is I must roll and roll and roll with non-compliant uke's in order to learn how to put it all together without thinking about it.

There is no way to shortcut this process.

Good questions and thoughts

Oh BTW, I am 41 years old...so you are not allowed to say you are getting old Keith!

On another note, next week I travel to Lisbon, Portugual to compete in the Eurpoean Brazillian Jiujitsu championships. I am excited to see how I compare! Should be fun!

CNYMike
01-17-2007, 08:24 AM
.... I'd also say my Aikido/budo training has given me more discipline and patience then both new and regular students. In budo you are told, right from the get go, that it is a long path and one that does not end. There is a much greater awareness that it is a pursuit of a lifetime, whereas I wonder how many of the guys I'm training with at the SBG will be there in a year. Which is funny because the coach very much has a life-long mindset. He'll talk about wanting to still be able to box when he's 55, playing it smart, careful, and conservative. However, that mindset is never really explained/transferred to the students ....

The attrition you refer to is not particular to SBG; it is an issue in every martial art. A very tradtional Shotokan sensei I met in Maine (19 years ago; where has the time gone!?) explained it to me like this:

Let's say you open a dojo and you have 100 students on your first day. Good for you! But in a year, only 10 of them will still be there. Out of those 10, one will test for shodan. And if you have 10 shodans, only one will go farther. So for every 1000 people who start MA training, only ONE will be at it for a lifetime! And this says nothing of the uncounted billions of people who think about doing it but never do.

Whether it's that bad for Aikido, I don't know; the dojo I go to seem to have loyal followings. But there are people who came and trained who haven't been seen in a while, too.

The same is true for gyms. They get a swell of new members at the start of the year because resolutions to get fit, but most if not all of those people are gone within a few months.

In the MA, burnout like this has been a concern for years. The only thing you can do when you start to feel it is keep training; that's all that gets you through it.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-17-2007, 02:06 PM
It seems to me that alot of these new, young guys want the competition/intensity of MMA/grappling but at some level under all that, in which they don't want to talk about, they still desire the discipline/focus of budo. Something to give all the training meaning in some way.

Not really going anywhere with that, just rambling...
I have read some articles written by Matt Thornton (SBGi President) in SBGi website and in his blogs, and also some written by Luis Gutierrez (SBGi Vice President) and i've found more "budo" in them than in most written by the ones who claim to practice or understand budo.
Aliveness is about the freedom to use whatever works in the moment. Right action at right time. Which is another name for true compassion. A freedom that is only fully felt when one is completely immersed in the present moment of now, and free of the burden of beliefs, which manifest as thoughts. A clear mind fully aware of reality as it is now, and operating with absolute synchronicity within time and space, that is the real beginning of Aliveness.

It is about Love.
Matt Thornton
http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-aliveness.html
Do you really think or believe there is any honor or beauty in bloodshed? Do you really? Do you believe in the tales OF war written by those not IN war? Can you actually pretend to conceive or practice anything remotely accurate to what the aggression and the cruel and wicked will to violence entails and what part of it possesses and is possessed in a man? Would you truly want to? Why? Why would you seek such strength? To bare what? To carry what burden? What wounds does such a passion and bottomless hunger for strength hide?

Do you not see such strength lies in weakness? Do you not see that such strength fears peace and does not wish it or act upon or behalf of it?

What good strength without the wisdom to use it?

What good strength without the compassion to value it?

What good strength without the humility to surrender it?

What good strength if not to build others?

Luis Gutierrez
http://www.onedragon.com/article_08.html

Keith R Lee
01-17-2007, 02:54 PM
Certianly the SBGi guys get it more than most, especially Thornton and Gutierrez. However, not every single SBGi coach ascribes to that same mindset or is overt in integrating it into their training.

Keith R Lee
01-17-2007, 02:57 PM
On another note, next week I travel to Lisbon, Portugual to compete in the Eurpoean Brazillian Jiujitsu championships. I am excited to see how I compare! Should be fun!

Good luck Kevin! That'll be exciting.

Michael Mansfield
01-22-2007, 09:22 AM
I've been training in Taekwondo for 14 and have since put it on hold for my aikido training, in which I'm currently 3rd kyu. Don't get me wrong, I haven't stopped practicing TKD all together. I still get out at the campus with the groups there and spar, but I haven't tested or learned new material in 2 years.

I originally decided to cross train in aikido because it was so vastly different from my original discipline. The most I could carry over would be reading the uke's in randori and keeping a good distance to maintain my mobility. Another plus is that when I was learning the footwork a fair amount of it was rehash for me. Aikido has helped my sparring in that my footwork has improved and I'm evading and countering more as well.

I digress. I feel that mixing other martial arts with others is good. It fills in the gaps that are not accounted for. I do feel that mixing arts is a personal matter, whether you wish to train in a contrasting or complimenting art is up to you. Additionally I feel that cross-training shouldn't be done untill you have a strong grasp of your current art. Though I will say that a grappling art or kendo could be trained at the same time as aikido; could be interesting or difficult.

Roberto S Celiz
02-06-2008, 03:04 PM
With 3 to 4 months of boxing, kyokushin karate, judo, mauy thai, bjj, sambo, etc. You will be good enough to handle most untrained people in the ring. Which I personally beleive transfers well to self defense on the street. Of course the blending is all up to you and how you look at and train your aikido.

Personally, I was a judo/bjj/aikido guy. Now I'm mainly focued on bjj/mauy thai.

yes I agree with u Don, I am also a combat Aikido teacher here in the Phil. and I have dojo, I do teach combative aikido because I know they're very effective on the street fight, I combine aikido with Karate, Jujitsu and FMA which is Arnis. and it is very effective. My students do says positively the effectiveness of the combination of arts for they have experienced it on the street fight. And to say about Uyeshiba, he was a great fighter because he have combined all the arts and called it Aikido. It is already a Universal Art and complete because before he found it, he was already a practitioner of all those arts.

Chris Parkerson
02-06-2008, 04:55 PM
I obviously am passionately committed to mixed training...
but I have a few caveats.

1. It is not for beginners. Most folks need a base art; a shodan in one art before they branch out.

2. Someone must keep specific traditions alive and distinct. The traditional model acts as the thesis. Fusion is the antithesis. Synthesis occurs as conservatism and liberalism middle through each decade. Still, all arts are alive and change over time. It is good that change is taken at a conservative pace within traditional curriculums.

3. Respect is afforded to all practitioners and pioneers. They all, whether famous or not, whether successful or not, made major sacrifices for the future of the martial way.

DonMagee
02-07-2008, 08:04 AM
The more I train, the less I cross train and the more I go back to judo.

I am working right now for my black belt in judo. I am probably about a year or so away (depending on a kata partner). I've found that the more I train judo, the less need I feel to do anything else. Even my bjj ground game has changed dramatically from judo. I rarely even show up for striking training anymore. I do find that just focusing on judo has made my sparing better in bjj, judo, and even the little MMA I engage in on fridays. My clinch is stronger, my sense of timing is way better then it has ever been, and MOST importantly, I can throw people on their heads and land on them.

This has lead me to believe that cross training is a phase and nowhere near as important as just MMA sparing. I could truely see me eventually training in nothing but judo and sparing with MMA rules.

Not saying quit everything and train judo, it just happens that judo seems to be the best fit for me. Odd seeing that I basically blew it off a year ago and only kept showing up for practice to just work a throw or two I use in bjj matches. Now, I couldn't live without judo in my game, it's the largest part of my game. It's rare that I am not the one who gets the takedown, lands on top and stays there.

CNYMike
02-07-2008, 10:26 PM
I obviously am passionately committed to mixed training...
but I have a few caveats.

1. It is not for beginners. Most folks need a base art; a shodan in one art before they branch out.


That, I'm not so sure about .... mainly because I didn't do it. :o
If you wantto cross-train, do it!


2. Someone must keep specific traditions alive and distinct ....

Absolutely. You have to think about posterity -- what future generations will get. I keep saying a martial arts class focuses on two things -- the techniques and the system. The audience for the techniques is the group of students right there; the audience for the system is their students' students. Will people get what you benefitted from two or three generations removed from you? If not, what's the point?

That said .....



.... all arts are alive and change over time. It is good that change is taken at a conservative pace within traditional curriculums.


That's especially tricky with Aikido, because O Sensei didn't want it carved in stone, yet if you depart too much, it's not Aikido anymore.

Personally, if I were to try to combine things from Aikido and other arts into one system, I wouldn't put "Aikido" in the name, out of respect for O Sensei and the lineage between him and me. It's one thing to draw on Aikido as source material, but that doesn't mean you have to go back to the source and mess with it. And you shouldn't.

Chris Parkerson
02-08-2008, 06:50 AM
Absolutely. You have to think about posterity -- what future generations will get. I keep saying a martial arts class focuses on two things -- the techniques and the system. The audience for the techniques is the group of students right there; the audience for the system is their students' students. Will people get what you benefitted from two or three generations removed from you? If not, what's the point?

In the 1970's Brian Adams (Kempo Master) had returned from meditating in India for 2 years. When he returned he tried to teach with just principles and "instinctive-learning drills". He saw great progress in the learning curve....for about 6 weeks. Then people started to leave for other dojos. Point being? People need structure. They need to learn techniques as well as training in applied instinctinve movement. A standardized curriculum provides signposts for the specific martial path/tradition you have chosen.

That's (curriculum change) sic especially tricky with Aikido, because O Sensei didn't want it carved in stone, yet if you depart too much, it's not Aikido anymore. ... Personally, if I were to try to combine things from Aikido and other arts into one system, I wouldn't put "Aikido" in the name, out of respect for O Sensei and the lineage between him and me. It's one thing to draw on Aikido as source material, but that doesn't mean you have to go back to the source and mess with it. And you shouldn't.

I would not try to combine other stuff into the system. That is for the Soke's of the system to do. I believe that each system should stay distinct. But individuals should adopt what works for them under the crucible of discovering their own specific budo path (Bruce Lee). The sports path will be different from the military path which will be different from the police path....different from the bodyguard's path. And many practicioner's paths will be for "personal growth" without overstressing the fighting aspects.

My own path is as an R&D guy. I really want no place or position of authority in any system. I like testing theses and hypotheses, finding ways to shorten the learning curve, developing drills that challenge hidden assumptions that yudansha have, taking "willing yudansha" to the edge of their personal cliff, and walking with them in a socratic fashion while they find their own resolutions to what they saw when they peered over the cliff; then shaking their hand "good-bye and godspeed" as they return to their tradition a bit different than before.... "Ah not the same Kord". (The Silent Flute/Circle of Iron).

DonMagee
02-08-2008, 07:56 PM
I just like to throw people on their heads and choke them.

Steve Peters
02-20-2008, 12:56 PM
One of my sensei's suggested some cross training in striking arts. Not so much for defense, but for improved ukemi and atemi.

mickeygelum
02-20-2008, 08:38 PM
The more I train, I find them all to be the same....we all observe the same principles/techniques, it is just how we perceive them as an individual....;)

lbb
02-21-2008, 11:18 AM
I started aikido because I moved to a place where there wasn't anything else (and there was a good, if young, aikido dojo). Now, wouldn't you know it, I'm spending three days a week in Boston, where I used to live. I'm not about to go back, but I do entertain the thought, from time to time, of maybe doing a little training at my old karate dojo. I don't think I will, though -- I don't want to dabble at either style. I'll probably stop by and offer to buy my old sensei a beer, though.

jaybee
05-01-2008, 12:03 PM
Aikido in it self is a true martial art, However true, Aikido is a combination of five major martial arts namely; Classic Aikijujutsu, Judo, Kendo, Art of Samurai and Spear Fighting. Their very best techniques combined together to form the art of Aikido. A well studied martial art of purely self defense, If there is no offense there is no defense. Virtually unlimited techniques, It is not an offensive form of martial art. Its' movements are graceful and harmonize with the force of the opponent, it utilizes the strength and momentum of an aggressor to be used against his own intention.:p

Mixing Aikido with other martial arts to my opinion is not desirable! because, mixing would defeat many principles of Aikido. May become offensive and destructive.:(

Aikido should be the finisher course of all martial arts! Since Aikido polishes the movements and techniques of ones' skill and need not be strong to apply the skill of Aikido.

DonMagee
05-01-2008, 01:02 PM
I don't see much kendo or judo in aikido. Might just be me though.

edtang
05-01-2008, 01:16 PM
Well judging from his post I seriously doubt he's ever done any Judo or Kendo.

Ron Tisdale
05-01-2008, 01:55 PM
Hi Don,

Given the context that this came up in, I'd agree with you.

Outside of that context, try the Jiyushinkai, and then tell me you don't see much judo in aikido. Or Mochizuki's students. They did kendo as well at one point I believe.

I think it's a matter of what you've been exposed to.

Best,
Ron

CSFurious
05-01-2008, 02:35 PM
Jose,

i agree with everything you say

however, the problem with modern Aikido in my experience is that it is often the beginner course for many Aikido students, &, therefore, they do not understand what an actual fight is like with a non-compliant opponent

i would even submit that it is easier to teach and make money from Aikido by making it softer

let's be honest, most people are not going to pay money to get hurt which is what happens when you train in a certain way; i submit that while you can suffer injuries in Aikido schools that all of the major martial arts injuries that i have suffered happened to me when i was not studying Aikido (is that just bad luck or indicative of something else?)

most people have neither the desire nor the need to train like samurai, and thus we are left with a modern martial art where the student must actually look elsewhere for the actual foundation of their training

also, to people who disagree, it is a fact that the original students of O'Sensei all had significant martial arts experience before they trained in Aikido (if that does not tell you that experience in Aikido alone is not sufficient, i do not know what will)

Aikido in it self is a true martial art, However true, Aikido is a combination of five major martial arts namely; Classic Aikijujutsu, Judo, Kendo, Art of Samurai and Spear Fighting. Their very best techniques combined together to form the art of Aikido. A well studied martial art of purely self defense, If there is no offense there is no defense. Virtually unlimited techniques, It is not an offensive form of martial art. Its' movements are graceful and harmonize with the force of the opponent, it utilizes the strength and momentum of an aggressor to be used against his own intention.:p

Mixing Aikido with other martial arts to my opinion is not desirable! because, mixing would defeat many principles of Aikido. May become offensive and destructive.:(

Aikido should be the finisher course of all martial arts! Since Aikido polishes the movements and techniques of ones' skill and need not be strong to apply the skill of Aikido.

Kevin Leavitt
05-01-2008, 02:59 PM
also, to people who disagree, it is a fact that the original students of O'Sensei all had significant martial arts experience before they trained in Aikido (if that does not tell you that experience in Aikido alone is not sufficient, i do not know what will)

I agree that your assumption is probably correct, that they had experience in other arts, AND that it probably helped them in many ways.
However, (you knew there had to be one).

I don't necessarily agree that "it tells you something" as your implication implies.

What it tells me is that the culture within Japan was such that they had other backgrounds.

Did it indeed help them? Maybe.

It might also be said that it hurt their development in aikido as aikido.

I don't know.

I do know that I personally feel that having a background in other martial arts has helped me as a martial artist in general. It has given me a broad picture about martial options and paradigms.

How does it help me in aikido....I don't know, I seem to be at least as skilled, maybe less than others in the art of aikido...I certainly don't have the depth that many others have.

I think the discussion centers around depth and breadth.

Certainly other arts give you breadth...however they probably don't give you depth in aikido.

Which is more important???

I think it depends on you and your goals.

CSFurious
05-01-2008, 03:38 PM
Kevin, you are clearly a deep individual & i cannot disagree with anything you say

it is a paradox but i think that training in other martial arts or having previous martial arts experience actually hinders you when studying Aikido, e.g., i have trained in Judo & if i suddenly start using Judo during an Aikido techinque, in an abstract way, i think that i just stopped practicing Aikido

it is fundamental to me that one must practice with an "empty cup"

be that as it may, my cup is now halfway filled :)

anyway, i think studying other systems was more about the exposure for me & since my exposure, i like Aikido even more than previously

Kevin Leavitt
05-01-2008, 03:42 PM
agreed, my experiences for the most part as well.

Aristeia
05-01-2008, 04:54 PM
yeah to take the analogy, it used to be everyone showing up to my bjj school were expereienced martial artists of another type. Is that because you need another art to do bjj? No, it was just that the only people that had heard about it were martial artists. Now that it is more "mainstream" many more true newbies are coming through the door.

It may have been similar with Aikido - when it first started it makes sense that it was experienced martial artists that heard about it and showed up.

Having said all that, I agree it works better when built on a foundation of live training in other arts.

Dewey
05-01-2008, 05:14 PM
Jose,

i agree with everything you say

however, the problem with modern Aikido in my experience is that it is often the beginner course for many Aikido students, &, therefore, they do not understand what an actual fight is like with a non-compliant opponent

i would even submit that it is easier to teach and make money from Aikido by making it softer

let's be honest, most people are not going to pay money to get hurt which is what happens when you train in a certain way; i submit that while you can suffer injuries in Aikido schools that all of the major martial arts injuries that i have suffered happened to me when i was not studying Aikido (is that just bad luck or indicative of something else?)


Let's see here. I belong to a dojo that has as its head instructor a former SWAT officer in the local police department and many dojomates who are former military, not to mention that our shihan is Larry Reynosa (who was the former top student on Seagal...that is, when Seagal was in his prime). The focus of our training is realistic self-defense. No "here, please grab my wrist" sort of nonsense. This was "hit 'em with everything you have" sort of training. No shonenuchi stuff sort of nonsense or other stylized sort of attacks. Just the "punch me!" sort of attacks.

Reynosa Sensei was at our dojo a couple weeks ago (don't believe me? http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14044). We were put through the ringer. My left shoulder still hurts...2 weeks later! I'm 180lbs. at 5'7" (not fat, either). I threw everything I had at my training partners. Reynosa wouldn't have anything less.

I'm completely conviced that Aikido "works."

CSFurious
05-02-2008, 09:00 AM
this is not the Aikido training that i am talking about

you need to leave that dojo & go visit some other Aikido schools

eventually, you will experience what i am talking about & you will appreciate your current instructor even more than you already do
Let's see here. I belong to a dojo that has as its head instructor a former SWAT officer in the local police department and many dojomates who are former military, not to mention that our shihan is Larry Reynosa (who was the former top student on Seagal...that is, when Seagal was in his prime). The focus of our training is realistic self-defense. No "here, please grab my wrist" sort of nonsense. This was "hit 'em with everything you have" sort of training. No shonenuchi stuff sort of nonsense or other stylized sort of attacks. Just the "punch me!" sort of attacks.

Reynosa Sensei was at our dojo a couple weeks ago (don't believe me? http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14044). We were put through the ringer. My left shoulder still hurts...2 weeks later! I'm 180lbs. at 5'7" (not fat, either). I threw everything I had at my training partners. Reynosa wouldn't have anything less.

I'm completely conviced that Aikido "works."

CNYMike
05-02-2008, 11:55 PM
.... it is a fact that the original students of O'Sensei all had significant martial arts experience before they trained in Aikido....

O Sensei had pretty stringent entrance requirements for thatcadre of students -- they had to have a black belt in something else and be sponsored by one or two people he trusted. Then he interviewed you. If you blew it then, that was it. So it may have had more to do with that than anything else.

dalen7
05-03-2008, 02:03 AM
I just like to throw people on their heads and choke them.

and others like to pound peoples faces repeatedly with their fist. :)
i.e., boxing. :)

Peace

dAlen

Bill Danosky
05-03-2008, 01:54 PM
Bruce Lee had a good point- that once you say you practice a certain style, you tend to confine yourself to the techniques within it.

I like and use Karate striking, Tae Kwon Do kicks, Kung Fu blocking and trapping, Judo throws and BJJ grappling. But I think Aikido has a particular elegance that I find very appealing. Hands down, it's my favorite.

It's cerebral and it's full of finesse. There's a mysterious, magical quality that attracts high level practitioners from other arts. It's only highly effective if you're really good.

Have you ever noticed that even though there's that constant question of effectiveness, the number of zealous fanatics grows every year?

DonMagee
05-04-2008, 10:10 AM
and others like to pound peoples faces repeatedly with their fist. :)
i.e., boxing. :)

Peace

dAlen

All the more reason why I train in multiple areas and do MMA sparing. So even in against one like that, I can still throw them on their head and choke them. :D