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Takao Hattori
05-23-2006, 02:27 AM
TohoIai was created by Shoji Nishio Shihan for Aikidoka.
Have you practiced or seen TohoIai ?

ChristianBoddum
05-23-2006, 06:08 AM
Hi !

Yes, I practice Aiki Toho Iai 3 times a week in the dojo and a Little by myself.
In Denmark the Nishio brand of Aikikai practice Aiki Toho Iai quite a lot -
mostly the higher grades.
It is possible to train with an Iaito from 3rd Kyu.

Takao Hattori
05-23-2006, 06:39 AM
Hi !

Yes, I practice Aiki Toho Iai 3 times a week in the dojo and a Little by myself.
In Denmark the Nishio brand of Aikikai practice Aiki Toho Iai quite a lot -
mostly the higher grades.
It is possible to train with an Iaito from 3rd Kyu.

Oh you practice TohoIai 3 times a week. It sounds good.
How do you think about TohoIai ? TohoIai is not for iai, is for Aikido.

http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

ChristianBoddum
05-23-2006, 08:35 AM
Oh you practice TohoIai 3 times a week. It sounds good.
How do you think about TohoIai ? TohoIai is not for iai, is for Aikido.

http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

I'm not quite sure what you mean -

If I understand correctly ; Yes Toho iai is not iaido ,
it is Aikido in an iai form , Aikido as you would perform it with a sword.
There still are elements from classic sword wielding,
Nishio has said that the techniques derive from military techniques
so they have martial practicality,they are more than form.

The Kata's are not directly translations of Aikido techniques,
because you must target technique differently with a sword ,
than in empty handed technique, so there is much thought process involved.

Like there are differences in doing the same techniques in Ken-tai-Ken. In Ken-tai-Ken there are blocks and control points ,whereas
in Toho iai there are bigger continued cuts.

Takao Hattori
05-25-2006, 07:07 PM
Like there are differences in doing the same techniques in Ken-tai-Ken. In Ken-tai-Ken there are blocks and control points ,whereas
in Toho iai there are bigger continued cuts.[/QUOTE]

I believe your understanding is correct.
When we practice Taijutsu,we also practice TohoIai,Ken tai Ken and Jo tai Ken which were taught by Nishio Shihan.

Then I think we can level up our Aikido-Taijutsu from TohoIai .
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

ChristianBoddum
05-26-2006, 05:38 AM
Yes absolutely !

But if you take Kata no. 5 - Gohonme Sayu giri - Shihonage gyakuhanmi ,
the first cut is quite high , some aim for the armpits ( Arisue Sensei cuts at stomach level )
in taijutsu shihonage is quite low , so this makes it necessary to analyze the techniques,
between Iai,ken and taijutsu and also with jo.

JJF
05-26-2006, 05:51 AM
Hello Hattori san - and hello Christian

I practice in the same dojo as Christian, but I have allso been doing seitei iaido under the Kendo renmei some years ago.

I believe there are two aspects of Aikitoho. One is its relation to Aikido in the form Nishio sensei taught it and the other is a basic understanding of the sword which - in many ways - can be understood as the basis of aikido.

I think Aikitoho is the essence of Nishios senseis understanding of aikido and of the way of the sword - but then again - so is his aikido... I believe one should practic toho with focus on the way the sword should be used AND on the footwork and posture of aikido at the same time. It is a brand new budo - not Aikido... not iaido... it is Aiki-toho and it contains many aspects of budo.

Most of all it is great fun ;)

Sincerely

- JJ

ChristianBoddum
05-26-2006, 06:14 AM
- It is a brand new budo - not Aikido... not iaido...
it is Aiki-toho and it contains many aspects of budo. -

Hmm.. interesting, so far I have been trying to understand Nishio Aikido from Aiki Toho iai,
but to see it as a separate Budo will take some adjustment - but then again, Change seems to be the standard in Nishio Aikido :D

JJF
05-26-2006, 09:10 AM
Hi Christian

If I remember right our old sensei Leo told me that In the beginning Nishio sensei told his students Aiki-toho was a style of iaido, but later he changed this and said it is a new budo. It is obiously closely integrated to the aikido of Nishio sensei, and I wouldn't think it to be of much value to practice one without the other. However I do believe it to be a separate budo - not a part of aikido practice the way ken-tai-ken and ken-tai-jo is. The mere fact that we have separete gradings in aiki-toho underlines this line of thought, wouldn't you say?

- JJ

Jory Boling
05-27-2006, 12:44 AM
Is aikitohoiai the same as what i've heard referred to as "aiki iai?"
I also thought this title was "tohoLai." thanks for clearing that up!

Definitely, lost in transliteration,
Jory

ChristianBoddum
05-27-2006, 05:23 PM
[QUOTE= The mere fact that we have separate gradings in aiki-toho underlines this line of thought, wouldn't you say?

- JJ[/QUOTE]

I think I have viewed Aiki toho iai as a separate discipline ,not
a separate Budo.

Takao Hattori
05-30-2006, 07:02 PM
Hello Christian and Jorgen,
Sometimes we practice Tohoiai combining some waza.
For instance we start same as Sanpo-Giri,then Zengo-Giri.
This means Shomen-Uchi Shihonage. Have you tried combination ?

JohnSeavitt
05-31-2006, 02:03 PM
Say, can somebody enlighten me on the lineage of Toho-iai? It's my impression that it "has its roots"... in classical iai. Did Nishio-sensei have a particular koryu iai in his background when he developed his 15 waza?

John

kironin
05-31-2006, 05:43 PM
If my memory serves, and it may very well not, Nishio Sensei was ranked in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. A closely related sister to the style I primarily practice Muso Shinden Ryu.

I have practiced the Toho-iai in a seminar with one of his top US students. From what I understand, the kata are directly connected to his Aikido Waza and how he thought through the technical aspects of his Aikido. IMO I didn't see any evidence there is any meaningful connection back to Iaido (traditional, koryu, classical - labels requiring long complex discussions).

So I would say my impression is that Toho-iai has no lineage in the traditional sense. Its lineage starts with Nishio Sensei. I think that should be enough for those that do it and love practicing in Nishio Sensei's style. He was a talented enough individual with deep experience in several martial arts.

The term "iai" is not a simple concept and its not an accurate description for what is going on and the goals really have little in common with Iaido. I glad he eventually decided to say it was not Iaido but I think he should have gone further and dropped "Iai" from the name altogether.

Iaido and Toho-Iai have as much in common as
Jodo and Aiki-Jo.

but since Jo is just the name of the stick, the label Aiki-Jo makes a lot more sense.

Toho-Iai is really just another form of Aiki-Ken.

ChristianBoddum
05-31-2006, 06:30 PM
Hello Christian and Jorgen,
Sometimes we practice Tohoiai combining some waza.
For instance we start same as Sanpo-Giri,then Zengo-Giri.
This means Shomen-Uchi Shihonage. Have you tried combination ?

?!? You mean kata no. 11 Sanpo-giri - (Sankyo)
and then kata no.4 Zengo - (Shihonage) No !

Today we did Sanpo-giri as toho ,
then ken-tai-Ken and then ken-tai-Jo.

Usually we move from Kata 1 and forward,
But sometimes (seldomly) backwards ,to break any habits.

We have 4-5 teachers of Aiki toho iai in our Dojo,
and they all have different angles and ways of teaching.

Takao Hattori
05-31-2006, 06:51 PM
Hello Christian,
I learned Iai from Nishio sensei until he died, first Omori- ryu and Keishicho- ryu.And I practiced Musoshinden- ryu and Araki-ryu also.
I saw some Araki-ryu technique in Nishio sensei.

Out of 15 waza in Toho-Iai, I teach what the waza means.
From the introduction of Sanpo-giri, you can learn how to control Shomen-uchi.

TohoIai is for Aikido.
http://www.aikidofederation.com/news012.htm
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/Tohoiai.html

ChristianBoddum
06-01-2006, 07:12 AM
- From the introduction of Sanpo-giri, you can learn how to control Shomen-uchi. -

Hi Hattori !

Wouldn´t you say that you can learn to control shomenuchi from the introduction of :
Uke nagashi(2) , Tsuke kome (9) .Shiho giri (12) also ?

By the way , do you know what is happening in the beginning of Shihogiri , is uke moving away from the centerline or do you cut him in an angle ?
Arisue sensei showed me that in Ken-tai-Ken you control Ukes right arm - but this could be different in Aiki Toho ,as you cut rather deeply !

For how long have you been training the Sword ?

Jorge Garcia
06-01-2006, 10:11 AM
If my memory serves, and it may very well not, Nishio Sensei was ranked in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. A closely related sister to the style I primarily practice Muso Shinden Ryu.

I have practiced the Toho-iai in a seminar with one of his top US students. From what I understand, the kata are directly connected to his Aikido Waza and how he thought through the technical aspects of his Aikido. IMO I didn't see any evidence there is any meaningful connection back to Iaido (traditional, koryu, classical - labels requiring long complex discussions).

So I would say my impression is that Toho-iai has no lineage in the traditional sense. Its lineage starts with Nishio Sensei. I think that should be enough for those that do it and love practicing in Nishio Sensei's style. He was a talented enough individual with deep experience in several martial arts.

The term "iai" is not a simple concept and its not an accurate description for what is going on and the goals really have little in common with Iaido. I glad he eventually decided to say it was not Iaido but I think he should have gone further and dropped "Iai" from the name altogether.

Iaido and Toho-Iai have as much in common as
Jodo and Aiki-Jo.

but since Jo is just the name of the stick, the label Aiki-Jo makes a lot more sense.

Toho-Iai is really just another form of Aiki-Ken.


Thanks Craig, I have been reading this thread with some interest. Your comments were helpful to me.

Guilty Spark
06-01-2006, 10:17 AM
I picked up a book on Aikido Toho Iai but haven't had a chance to sit down and read it.

I found that using the bokken really improved my basic stance and keeping myself centered. And hey it's fun (unless your my wifes furniture I'm always wacking by accident. )
I'm really interested in taking up and trying Aikido Toho Iai however I have two questions for those of you who are in the know about it.

1). For about 6 months I will probably have to practice this (and aikido) on my own. Can Akido Toho Iai be practiced on your own?

2). I'm an orange belt, will this stuff be over my head? Should I wait until higher levels?

Thanks all

Grant

ChristianBoddum
06-01-2006, 10:35 AM
1). For about 6 months I will probably have to practice this (and aikido) on my own. Can Aikido Toho Iai be practiced on your own?

2). I'm an orange belt, will this stuff be over my head? Should I wait until higher levels?

Thanks all

Grant

First off ; You shouldn't get your answers here ,ask your sensei !

Is Aiki Toho taught in your Dojo ?

If not then you really can't learn it , you will need qualified instruction !

I have seen a case of a person training on his own ,
not recommended !
Unless you are surrounded by mirrors , you can't see your own mistakes.

This is my view - Maybe Hattoro has better answers -

he is much more the authority here !!

ChristianBoddum
06-01-2006, 11:46 AM
- Maybe Hattoro has better answers -



Oops !

Hattori , not Hattoro - gomen nasai Hattori-san !

Takao Hattori
06-01-2006, 01:02 PM
Wouldn´t you say that you can learn to control shomenuchi from the introduction of :
Uke nagashi(2) , Tsuke kome (9) .Shiho giri (12) also ?
--I recommend Sanpo-giri intoduction to control Shomen-uchi.

By the way , do you know what is happening in the beginning of Shihogiri , is uke moving away from the centerline or do you cut him in an angle ?
-- Sorry I cannot understand.

Arisue sensei showed me that in Ken-tai-Ken you control Ukes right arm - but this could be different in Aiki Toho ,as you cut rather deeply !
--TohoIai and Ken tai Ken is not always same.

For how long have you been training the Sword ?[/QUOTE]
-- Longer than 25 years. Not only Nishio sensei but also I practiced Iai-Musoshinden ryu and Araki ryu at the dojo where Nishio sensei practiced Iai. In addition Toyama ryu to realize real cutting.

Takao Hattori
06-01-2006, 01:16 PM
Hi
1). For about 6 months I will probably have to practice this (and aikido) on my own. Can Akido Toho Iai be practiced on your own?

2). I'm an orange belt, will this stuff be over my head? Should I wait until higher levels?
-Answer
In my dojo anyone practice Tohoiai.Even one month.
I use Tohoiai to teach and learn Aikido. I can see essence in Tohoiai.
When we enjoy Aikido,often use Jo and bokken to understand Waza.

http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

Thanks all

ChristianBoddum
06-01-2006, 01:59 PM
By the way , do you know what is happening in the beginning of Shihogiri , is uke moving away from the centerline or do you cut him in an angle ?
-- Sorry I cannot understand.

.

What kind of attack are you recieving in Shiho-giri ?

Takao Hattori
06-01-2006, 06:44 PM
What kind of attack are you recieving in Shiho-giri ?

Hi Christian
He does Shomenuchi. I cut him from angle position.

By the way have you cut something by real sword ?

I saw some Iai kodansha could not cut Makiwara correctly.
Do you cut or hit in Toho Iai ?

http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

ChristianBoddum
06-02-2006, 02:49 AM
He does Shomenuchi. I cut him from angle position.



Hi Hattori - thank you very much ,for the last three years at seminars I have been trying to get clear about this , Arisue sensei has instructed me ,but he doesn't speak English so i didn't understand.

Also do you cut him from the top of his head (shomen giri)
as the cut is straight down ?
and where on the blade do you make contact ?


- By the way have you cut something by real sword ? -

No, not yet - there are no tameshigiri in our dojo.
I may have to do some research to get the opportunity.
And also I will need my sensei's advice - this I will not do If he doesn't think I'm ready.

JJF
06-02-2006, 06:22 AM
Hi

With regards to lineage... it's true that aiki-toho starts with Nishio sensei, though of course he has been greatly influenced by his own experience with traditional iai-schools. At the danishi aikikai homepage there is a list of all the toho-katas and it also points out from which school of iai the chiburi movement originates. Look here: http://www.aikikai.dk/pensum_toho.htm

On top of this it is mentioned that Nishio sensei often teached the mentioned five katas from Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei Toho, so his idea with Aiki-toho is obviously not completely separated from 'regular' iai-practice.

In my opinion a very important similarity between Aiki-toho and the aikido of Nishio sensei is the context of the movements. In both systems the technique is not performed as a reaction to an attack. They should help develop the ability to anticipate the situation and move from normal walking into the right position where tori is safe and able to cut uke. Irimi and the principle of iai are not that far apart in my opinion.

- Jørgen Jakob

Takao Hattori
06-02-2006, 09:01 AM
Hi

. They should help develop the ability to anticipate the situation and move from normal walking into the right position where tori is safe and able to cut uke. Irimi and the principle of iai are not that far apart in my opinion.

- Jørgen Jakob
Hi Jorgen san,
I know the Iai that when someone cut me,I am not standing of his way and get out of his way.
Of course I learned Seitei,as you know Seitei is diffrent from what you mean.

regards
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

Takao Hattori
06-02-2006, 09:12 AM
Also do you cut him from the top of his head (shomen giri)
as the cut is straight down ?
and where on the blade do you make contact ?




In TohoIai there are two ukenagashi.
One is in Ukenagashi Ikkyo,the other is in Sanpogiri.
Not lean as Ukenagahi,however this is one of Ukenagasgi, then you cut him from the top of his head as you say.
Nishio sensei once suggested me to visit Denmark to teach TohoIai together with him,however I couldn't for my buisiness.
By the way I worked for 10 years under nice Danish guy from Arlborg.Still we are friend.

Thanks

Takao Hattori
06-08-2006, 06:49 PM
Hi,
Now I am planning how to enjoy at below Aikido camp in 7-9 July 2006.
http://www.aikidofederation.com/news012.htm
From this thread , I would like to teach Sankyo and Shihonage against Shomenuchi.
Sounds good.

Takao Hattori
06-14-2006, 07:43 PM
Last Monday we practiced Tekubi-Osae of TohoIai.Then enjoyed Shomenuchi -Nikyo.
We often mix introduction of Sanpogiri and TekubiOsae for ShomenUchi Nikyo.
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/Tohoiai.html

JJF
06-15-2006, 03:56 AM
Takao san

Thank you for your reply. On second thought I think you are right that seitei iai is different with regards to irimi. At least some seitei kata are about cutting faster than the opponent - not about getting out of the way. Unfortunately I don't know any other iai-styles. Can you tell me what it is like in for example Muso shinden ryo?

The Singapore camp is in a bad time for me, so not this time. However I think you should come to Denmark too if your business permits it. Otherwise we just have to come to you. Where exactly in Japan is Yokosuka? I was in Tokyo, kyoto, Hakone, Odawara, Yokohama and shiga province last year. It was fun.

Sincerely

- Jørgen Jakob

Takao Hattori
06-15-2006, 05:39 AM
Takao san

Thank you for your reply. On second thought I think you are right that seitei iai is different with regards to irimi. At least some seitei kata are about cutting faster than the opponent - not about getting out of the way. Unfortunately I don't know any other iai-styles. Can you tell me what it is like in for example Muso shinden ryo?

The Singapore camp is in a bad time for me, so not this time. However I think you should come to Denmark too if your business permits it. Otherwise we just have to come to you. Where exactly in Japan is Yokosuka? I was in Tokyo, kyoto, Hakone, Odawara, Yokohama and shiga province last year. It was fun.


 Hi ,Yokosuka is next city of Yokohama,where we proud that Yokosuka is for NAVY.
This city is so different from other cities in Japan.
We live in together with American.
I would like to visit Denmark soon to your city.

I believe Nishio sensei's Aikido is influenced by Arakiryu Iai.
Typical one is TsukaOsae.
This come from Tsukadome of ArakiRyu.
And most interesting movement is TateKen of ArakiRyu.
I could not find this philosophy in Musoshinden such as giving a way for opponent.

By the way last Sunday we visited Iwama.
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

Takao Hattori
06-27-2006, 07:24 PM
Next week 7-9 July Aikido seminar will be held in Singapore.This time It will be practiced, how Sanpogiri of Toho-Iai to be utilized to do Tachidori of Shomenuchi-Shihonage and Shomenuchi-Sankyo. Let's enjoy Aikido with Toho-Iai.
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/
http://www.aikidofederation.com/news012.htm

JJF
06-28-2006, 03:10 AM
Takao san

Hello again. That is interesting. I was i Yokohama a few days last year in september. I am sorry I didn't know about you then. I could have visited your dojo for som aiki-toho :-)

I also went to Kyoto, Tokyo, Odawara, Hakone and to a seminar near Lake Biwa.

Maybe next time I go to Japan....

I don't know Arakiryu iai or the movement TateKen. Could you explain it?

Sincerely

- JJ

Takao Hattori
07-16-2006, 06:41 PM
Takao san

Hello again. That is interesting. I was i Yokohama a few days last year in september. I am sorry I didn't know about you then. I could have visited your dojo for som aiki-toho :-)

I also went to Kyoto, Tokyo, Odawara, Hakone and to a seminar near Lake Biwa.

Maybe next time I go to Japan....

I don't know Arakiryu iai or the movement TateKen. Could you explain it?

Sincerely

- JJ

Sorry for late reply.
I enjoyed Aikido in Sin on 5-9 July as NEWS in http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

When You see Tateken ,it looks simple.
Similar to Ikkyo Ukenagashi ,however ,different.
Anyhow ,if you practice Toho-iai ,then you will do same movement.

As far as I know,I do not get out of his way In Muso shinden- ryu.
On the other hand I get out of his way in Araki-tyu and Toho-iai.

Tsukaosae of Toho-iai is from Tsukadome of Araki-ryu.
Appearance of waza is different.

Toho -iai is for Aikido.
It is important how we can utilize movements of Toho-iai in Aikido.
regards Takao Hattori ,Shunyoukai,Yokosuka
regards TH

rulemaker
07-16-2006, 10:15 PM
Hi Hattori Sensei,

Do you know Yasuhiko Takemori Sensei? Does he practice aiki-toho iai? All I know is that he was a student of Nishio Sensei. Any information on Takemori Sensei will be highly appreciated.

He is coming to the Philippines for an aikido seminar and I am looking forward to it.

Thanks!

Mel Miel

CitoMaramba
07-17-2006, 04:36 AM
Found through Google:

http://www.adp-i.cz/tanaka/cv_takemori.html

"Yasuhiko Takemori (1952) 7. dan aikido (2005), 7. dan iaido (Zen Koku Iaido Renmei), was the prime uke of Nishio sensei during the period when the latter developed his own, distinctive form of aikido. He was also asked to be the personal uke of the late doshu, Kisshomaru Ueshiba, but eventually chosed to follow Nishio sensei. Since 1997 regularly having seminars in Swedish Uppsala, in 2003 in St Petersburg. "

rulemaker
07-17-2006, 10:23 PM
Hi Cito,

Did your group organize the trip of Takemori Sensei? How's the UK? Thanks!


Mel Miel

Takao Hattori
08-01-2006, 07:34 PM
Hello, I will be in Frankfurt Germany in Nov and Dec 2006.
If you like to see me, please contact me from below website in advance.
Takao Hattori
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

JJF
08-02-2006, 07:46 AM
Hello, I will be in Frankfurt Germany in Nov and Dec 2006.
If you like to see me, please contact me from below website in advance.
Takao Hattori
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

Takao San

That is interesting. What will you do for two months? Teach aikido and Toho-iai the whole time or will you have time for some vacation too?

Sincerely

- Joergen Jakob

Takao Hattori
08-02-2006, 05:19 PM
Takao San

That is interesting. What will you do for two months? Teach aikido and Toho-iai the whole time or will you have time for some vacation too?

Sincerely

- Joergen Jakob
For business trip.
I will be free after 1700 , in weekend and for some vacation.
best regards
TH

Takao Hattori
08-12-2006, 03:41 AM
Are there someone who are interested in TohoIai in Slovakia ?

TH
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

Takao Hattori
09-10-2006, 08:59 PM
I will be in Frankfurt,Germany in Oct and Nov.
Are there someone who are interested in Nishio style Aikido ?
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/