PDA

View Full Version : If it doesn't work just do it harder?


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Austin Power
05-15-2006, 05:07 PM
As i have mentioned in a previous post, i have some real problems with wrist locks when i uke. The fact of the matter is they just don't work sankyo, nikkyo, kote gaeshi etc all they really do is bend me out of shape slightly and not alot more.
Despite this, and due to some advice i had i make sure if wrist locks are being practiced i tell those around the situation in case they think they aren't doing it right and go through my wrists totally.
Recently i was training with alot of dan grades on the mat and they decided to practice sankyo, as adviced i told the 4th dan in my group the situation to get a response of "you shouldn't tell people that" so obviously i come to uke for the said dan grade and he locks in sankyo as hard as he can while i just look at him gone out. Then for about an extra 10 - 15 seconds he steadily applies pressure to see if he can actually get it to work with his eyes getting ever wider as i don't make a squeak. Obviously at this point i am a little narked and even more so when i get told i should have gone wth the technique (if i can't feel it how can i go with it). Previously i have had sensei modify wrist locks to incorporate the whole arm which is effective and does the job quite effectively.

Now despite the long preamble the point i am trying to get at is do i fake it for the point of ettiquette or do i carry on regardless?

Cheers

Austin

Ketsan
05-15-2006, 06:35 PM
I have this "problem" too. My joints started out stupidly supple and Aikido has only made them even more so. Even sankyo done on the fore arm only produces a mild pain (compared to what it used to) and my shoulder joints will rotate to the extent that people get quite worried and point out to sensei that its not natural. :D
I tap when I feel that an average person would or at a point where it used to hurt when I was less supple.

eyrie
05-15-2006, 07:26 PM
That's coz said dan grade has no concept of "taking the center". ;)

NagaBaba
05-15-2006, 09:16 PM
"Wrists locks" don't exist in independently from whole body. If one tries to apply a lock only to a wrist it is not effective at all. Ikkyo, nikyo ..etc involve whole skeletal locking. With Ďnormalí ppl itís quite easy; with some of you guys tori must apply modified techniques. It is very good for the black belts to experience such uke, in fact you are very precious uke. I met one friend with such capacities, and every time Iím very grateful to be able to practice with him.

But be careful, even you guys you have your limits.

Upyu
05-16-2006, 12:01 AM
Lol.. looks like Teo already took the words outa my mouth.
Actually I'll fudge and say they have no concept of "locking" the center :-D

After several years of joint lock practice pretty much everyone becomes hard to lock. That's when you need to start asking some more fundamental questions ;)
And I'm not including the "technique" variety.

Austin Power
05-16-2006, 04:26 AM
Thanks for the interesting replies guys. I am of the mind that the technique should be modified as if it happens in a real situation you aren't going to get to stand there with a suprised look on your face for very long. Also if uke with freakishly long tendons are hard to come by actually seeing/experiencing a modified technique is good further learning on my side, i would be stuck if i met another one of me :D

Mark Freeman
05-16-2006, 04:29 AM
But be careful, even you guys you have your limits.

Paul,
it seems that you practice with people that do not understand some of the 'finer' points of aikido. They are stuck focussing on trying to make you move with brute force. As has been mentioned in the replies so far, they are not 'controlling your centre' or from where I come from 'respecting or controlling your ki'.
In the right hands, you can be moved. Szczepan's warning above should be headed. If you get used to standing as an immovable object, challenging your partner to make the technique work, then you will lose the ability to make good ukemi. If you resist someone who really knows how to apply the technique you may very well wish that you hadn't cultivated the 'immovable' body. :uch:

regards,
Mark

Amir Krause
05-16-2006, 04:38 AM
Every technique has several variations, proper application of some of those should make the lock apply to the relevant joint and from it to the rest of your body, this is an important addition to taking the balance and center of Uke.

The common approach in my dojo would be for you not to fake it, and you would have been likely to expect several Dan grades working with you one after the other, each trying to find his own solution to your flexibility. You should be aware of your real limits, and be certain you are not damaging your joints without feeling the pain (each person is different and in some cases, one can in cure "corrosive" damage without feeling the pain), if the latter is the case, you should respond (as though you were faking it) to protect yourself.

Amir

Nick Simpson
05-16-2006, 06:39 AM
Your not impervious to techniques, their just not doing em right :p

As everyone has said, the technique should be modified to suit the situation. Personally, I dont see the problem with it, sankyo's not there to hurt someone, it's there to move em, really they might want to try leading you through your elbow. just remember to keep light on your feet, some people have the tendancy to whack things on when you are immobile and cannot possibly move with it...

seank
05-16-2006, 06:50 AM
I find that sankyo done just on the hand/fingers/forearm doesn't really do much to me anymore (I'm guessing I've become more flexible and less reactive to the technique in the form), however the same technique done with nage "projecting" through the arm has an immediate effect.

I'm not sure how or why this works, but its amazing the difference from such a minor variation...esoterically you could probably chalk it up to experience and application.

Qatana
05-16-2006, 09:05 AM
I"m another one. It is very difficult to sankyo me by trying to get into my wrist. Fortunately my sempai DO know how to get to my center through my shoulder, not my wrist.

Nick P.
05-16-2006, 09:18 AM
"Now despite the long preamble the point i am trying to get at is do i fake it for the point of etiquette or do i carry on regardless?"

Depends......
All the points above are of course bang-on, but if your dojo/sensei would prefer that you try and apply the technique being demonstrated as it was just shown by the teacher, then nage should try as best they can (and if they can't? I don't have the answer for that, your sensei does, not us...) and nage should "go along", to a point.

If however you are being taught to adapt or flat out change techniques when the first/second/eighth try "doesn't work", then nage should adapt and uke should resist to the point of it being a learning experience for both parties; neither a fighter nor a loose-noodle should they be.

What does your teacher expect of nage and uke when techniques don't work?

MikeLogan
05-16-2006, 09:51 AM
This thread feels like a bit of deja vu. All we need is for Paul's sensei to tell him he has no control. all they really do is bend me out of shape slightly and not alot more. If by this you mean to say that you don't feel any 'persuasion' because you were flexible enough to allow such a position to manifest in your person, then you are actually putting yourself in the way of greater bodily harm.
Working on kaitenage with a new guy at my dojo more often resulted in my standing behind him with his arm bent straight up his back. Sure I did something wrong, as we were both upright, but I owned his arm, even if he wasn't feeling it (he's a flexible guy too).
The obligatory statement is now that none of us were there to see it, and we can't say who did what with just paul's word. All we can ask is if he through his "flexibility" placed himself in greater bodily danger. That's an if

At any rate, 1,2,3, and 4th dans should know to be using your entire body when locking up one of your joints, just like your teacher. Is it them, or are you letting your body chain move so as to prevent it being 'locked up' ?

michael.

Austin Power
05-16-2006, 03:38 PM
I see your point in the "chain move", but no i was standing stock still and allowing the application of the technique. What i was expecting though was it to be applied to a point then brought into the pin as despite the fact sankyo may not work it does have the effect of taking my posture, unless i get given enough time to settle again whilst nage is cranking away at my wrist.

I have always found the happy medium with the fact i can allow nage to practice wrist locks on me faster than with other uke's and although its ineffective the whole technique isn't.

As to greater bodily danger i really can't see it unless someone is that intent on applying it they throw their whole bodyweight into it and then we are well past practice as even i with my limited skill could do major damage to someone using that particular hold and my full weight

MaryKaye
05-16-2006, 03:58 PM
My husband is like this: it is truly difficult to do anything to him with sankyo or koteoroshi. This is actually a great learning opportunity for nage. By the time I was finally able to do sankyo semi-reliably with him I had learned a lot about connecting my hands to my center, because nothing I could do with my arms or shoulders had a chance. (Got a lot of weird looks from friends and relations while we figured this out....)

You do want to choose your partners carefully for any kind of resistance work. One response I've encountered to a non-functioning sankyo is to crush the offending hand! As nage had big strong hands, this was quite unpleasant. Basically you never want to put partner in the position of deciding between having the technique fail and injuring you, unless you trust him to choose having the technique fail. Not everyone will.

Mary Kaye

eyrie
05-16-2006, 07:33 PM
The other side of the coin of course is that as uke, you should probably be more sensitive and allow the force to be transmitted to your center so that nage catches the feeling... it should be taken as a learning opportunity for both. Not just nage.

Austin Power
05-17-2006, 03:56 AM
thats a good point Ignatious, but i think most nage become a bit blinkered to everything bar the wrist when sankyo fails, i am getting of the mind unless nage hears a yelp they don't think they are doing it properly

kokyu
05-17-2006, 06:23 AM
I think the comments about connecting to uke's center and off-balancing him are the most important.

However, there are some subtle adjustments to techniques that might get a yelp... for example, in kotegaeshi, you could try sliding along the knuckles instead of just pressing down.

The other thing for nage to try is using body weight... I remember a senior citizen doing kotegaeshi on me... he did a fast tenkai and used his momentum and body weight for the move... that really hurt.. I thought he had broken my wrist :)

Trying to put more muscle into the move makes me step back and think that I'm probably doing something wrong.

eyrie
05-17-2006, 06:48 AM
It's like trying to solve a problem. The parameters of the problem are familiar, but the variables are different. And because you're carrying the baggage of your experience, it is hard to see an alternative solution - like not seeing the forest for the trees. Blinkered? Tunnel vision?

Back to the original question and a corollary: if it doesn't work, try harder?

Sometimes it helps to start from first principles and approach the problem differently. Find another way to hone in on the central issue.

Or as my teacher would say... "beginner's mind".

Austin Power
05-17-2006, 05:09 PM
Well tonight put some things into practice, firstly relaxing into it helps alot if just to give nage the centre and allow the takedown (kotegaeshi this time) however this time i got moaned at for giving in too easily. Granted this was from people i have trained with for a while who like the challenge of placing me in an effective lock, but on the upside it was certainly a learning experience for me.
The main realisation of whether any of the locks go on fully or at all is irrelevant if you have their centre, so at least from a small debacle i have got to see a bit more of the bigger picture and any learning experience is a good one.

Austin

xuzen
05-17-2006, 08:53 PM
If it doesn't work... try unbalancing uke first (lesson primero uno = KUZUSHI).

RebeccaM
05-17-2006, 10:09 PM
The other side of the coin of course is that as uke, you should probably be more sensitive and allow the force to be transmitted to your center so that nage catches the feeling... it should be taken as a learning opportunity for both. Not just nage.

I'm another flexible freak. I can and will take standard, by-the-book ukemi if I'm helping a beginner get an idea of how a technique works. However, if I'm working with someone more advanced, I just do what comes naturally. Before I'm warmed up joint locks are hard to get on me, and once I am thoroughly warm you might as well forget it.

I don't think very hard when I'm the uke. Unless I've decided to go for a reversal, I'm not actually looking for ways to screw up nage. I just go wherever he or she is sending me, but it's hard to respond if you literally cannot feel where they're going, and that's what happens if nage gets too tied up on a joint lock. It's not a question of allowing the force to transmit...you have to know it's there to allow the technique to happen. People (myself included) tend to develop a hang up with joint-locks and think that they're only about hurting your uke into submission. They aren't. The pain is more of a back-up plan than the entire technique. If you've got a freak on your hands, forget about causing pain and just go for their balance. It will work. I promise. If you take your uke's center, it doesn't matter if they're feeling the lock. Their balance is gone, and they're falling, and that's the whole point.

nathansnow
05-18-2006, 07:48 AM
I"m another one. It is very difficult to sankyo me by trying to get into my wrist. Fortunately my sempai DO know how to get to my center through my shoulder, not my wrist.
I think this is a very good point. As others have said in this thread, take the center, don't just concentrate on the particular joint. In Sankyo for example, it is very important that while applying the technique that you lock his shoulder. This will take his center because he will be off-balance. The technique is much more painful when twisting the whole arm from the wrist.

jonreading
05-22-2006, 10:45 AM
Aikido is difficult to learn on a normal person, let alone on a circus freak! Seriously, tough joints (strong, flexible, whatever) pose a problem for learning aikido because often the technique is altered in order to successfully apply the control; since the conrtrol is not applied as kihon waza, that can confuse newer students or students looking to learn that particular technique. As a student, it is your responsibility to control when you use your "special" powers to resist joint locks: What is the skill set of your partner? It this training or demonstration? Why are you resisting? What are the eventual consequences of your resistance?

I had a strong judo student in class with me one day. My instructor was demonstrating kotegaishi and used this student for uke. The judo student was determined to prevent kotegaishi and was unable to react to the technique application, thus resulting in a broken wrist. Who's fault is this? Does it matter? Protect yourself and use good judgement, then let the technique unfold. If you do what you are supposed to do at the level of which you are supposed to work, then you have completed your obligations to your partner. You should not do anything more or anything less.

I always encourage students to be strong and resiliant in training, but on the heels of that encouragement come words of caution to avoid injury and focus on the interaction. I believe you simply were the victim of an embarrassing situation with a senior student. I hope you do not view this as anything mote that a singular bad experience - you have gotten lots of encouragement from some great posters.

Mark Freeman
05-24-2006, 03:28 AM
I had a strong judo student in class with me one day. My instructor was demonstrating kotegaishi and used this student for uke. The judo student was determined to prevent kotegaishi and was unable to react to the technique application, thus resulting in a broken wrist. Who's fault is this? Does it matter? Protect yourself and use good judgement, then let the technique unfold. If you do what you are supposed to do at the level of which you are supposed to work, then you have completed your obligations to your partner. You should not do anything more or anything less.


This seems to me like neither party was doing aikido but were engaged in 'something else'. The uke certainly wasn't studying the art of ukemi, and nage was using force, enough to break the uke's wrist, without the sensitivity to know when to stop.

I appreciate the 'martial' effectiveness of aikido, but there is no need to break joints in a demo to prove it.

Sad to read that :(

regards,

Mark

Qatana
05-24-2006, 08:21 AM
As a student, it is your responsibility to control when you use your "special" powers to resist joint locks:

Who's resisting? When someone tries to sankyo me, I do not just stand there Not Allowing nage to move me, I try to follow, but I simply will not fall down if I have no need to. How is that "using my special powers" to resist? Since the people who are having this problem are largely mudansha, and largely kohai,(and all of them taller)it is my responsibility to help them do the technique properly by showing them how to adapt to my flexibility( by getting in closer and under my center). My sempai have less trouble, but once in a while I can walk out of a technique, and we just laugh and do it over.My teachers? They can do Anything!

Ken McGrew
06-11-2006, 12:13 AM
There isn't enough detail in the examples given here to comment on what the ultra-flexible Ukes should do.

It seems that what is being described is static practice with very little momentum (real or simulated) in Uke's body. This is an artificial situation. When we forget about simulating an attack, with momentum in Uke's body, then it is not suprising that all manner of techniques seem to lose their effectiveness.

When Uke moves, as he would in a real attack, Nage can throw with a technique that involves the joint locks, but it is the blending and leading that throws Uke, not the threat of pain from a joint lock. Standing there waiting for Nage to find the pain in your joints, in a martial situation, just invites Nage to do other (and more nasty) things to you. Moving to a place of safety will protect your joints, nose, and other vulnerable areas all at once.

When Uke is moving his movement multiplies the power of the joint lock. Most people do have a point at which joints will break. It's a dangerous game to be playing, waiting to be moved by the pain. Better to start moving as soon as you see the wrist lock coming to avoid the pain and possibility of injury. By going with the movement you also increase the likelihood of finding an opening for reversal. If you have a high threshold for pain in static practice, you may be suprised when you attack someone very fast, wait for the pain as usual, and may lose your wrist as a result.

Ken

Gernot Hassenpflug
06-11-2006, 02:15 AM
Paul and all the other super-flexible chaps there: just take some care that you don't end up taking a technique for too long - this can shift tendons and muscles out of good alignment all the way down the arm, shoulder, back and hip, and make your life really miserable trying to get it back. So sure, find your limits, and try if possible to always work on a reverse rotational technique to get the body back into balance. I speak from bitter experience here.

FWIW
Gernot