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aldie
05-12-2006, 02:49 AM
:grr: Are you combat effective!.. a point may come that you have to defend yourself.. can you be effective enough to survive an actual combat..

Mark Uttech
05-12-2006, 04:42 AM
I daresay that those of us who are not soldiers can hardly contemplate what 'combat' is. Those of us who have never been in any type of combat other than a street altercation cannot know what it is like to have bombs raining down and whistling all around. The study of Aikido helps to learn about vulnerability, and how to begin to let go of the mind that wants to fight. The study of ukemi is itself a study of vulnerability and dealing with vulnerability. O' Sensei taught about vulnerability, about keeping the force of Nature in mind. He also taught a peaceful way of practice. Yes, a point may come where you will have to defend yourself. You may have to defend yourself against some mind-numbing disease. Even here, the steadfast practice of Aikido has a place. Time and chance happen to us all. I personally have found that bowing, and focusing on breathing are just two of thousands of ways to face the unknown. In gassho

emma.mason15
05-12-2006, 06:23 AM
am i combat effective?
err ... no ...
but I have a degree in "look .... whats that over there?" ... and a NVQ in ruunning away ...

Steve Mullen
05-12-2006, 06:56 AM
one who turns and runs away........gets to keep on looking as good as i do :D

emma.mason15
05-12-2006, 06:58 AM
is tehre even a reply to that? ;)

Bridge
05-12-2006, 07:10 AM
one who turns and runs away........gets to keep on looking as good as i do :D

Just how fast can you run?

And how good looking are you?

As for me...I'm well'ard! Not.

SeiserL
05-12-2006, 07:57 AM
:grr: Are you combat effective!.. a point may come that you have to defend yourself.. can you be effective enough to survive an actual combat..
I was and prabably still am, but hope I never have to find out again.

roosvelt
05-12-2006, 08:28 AM
:grr: Are you combat effective!.. a point may come that you have to defend yourself.. can you be effective enough to survive an actual combat..

After training in Aikido, it sure imporves my odds. The odds is better or worse had I trained in weight lifting, running, swimming, car racing, knitting, or bird watching?

Dajo251
05-12-2006, 11:07 AM
I know I can handle myself in a fight, I knew this before aikido...am I going to come out unscathed, probably not, is the other guy going to come out unscathed probably not, what does this mean....I dont know Im tired and lost my train of thought

Kevin Leavitt
05-12-2006, 11:30 AM
No one really knows how they will come out in a fight. You might perceive in your head how you'd wish things might turn out based on the conception of what you think you will incur in a "combat" fight (whatever that is). The truth is you don't know.

There are too many issues that come into play. The only thing you can do is to prepare yourself mentally, physically, and spiritually to be ready when the time comes.

Sometimes you are the bug, sometimes you are the windshield!

Hopefully you do all you can to minimize exposure and reduce risk. With a little bit of skill, and some luck thrown in...well you might survive....it just depends. No matter how good you are, everybody can be beaten and killed.

Jorge Garcia
05-12-2006, 11:45 AM
I am as effective as any martial artist is who has trained for 11 years, under the teachers I have had, with the intensity and focus I have exercised who meets someone he can defeat with the amount of training and talent they lack or possess.

Another way of putting this is. I can survive some combats and not others. It depends who is in front of me and what tools for fighting they possess. I cannot defeat a short man with a big bomb.That is the same for me, Mike Tyson, the Gracie's and the man walking down the street .
Deeper thought would have kept the question from ever being asked.

Richard Langridge
05-12-2006, 01:42 PM
The fact that this topic keeps coming up just shows how incredibly complex the issue of 'combat' really is. Since you can never prepare for every eventuality, there's no harm in working on improving your odds. That's how I see it anyway...

Jorge Garcia
05-12-2006, 04:34 PM
That's my point. That all we are ever working with are odds and yes, the more you train, with more focus and intensity under great teachers, the more improved your odds are but that doesn't tell you how you will do against anyone because you and I don't have that information about them. No one ever knows who is going to "beat" whom. Even what we think is often wrong. I was once In a Wendy's restaurant when a big guy in a truck pulled up and attacked a little guy who was kissing a girl in a car. The little guy was trapped against the car when the big guy came in with fists swinging and feet kicking. The little guy closed his eyes and threw one overhand shot and knocked out the big guy cold. He looked as shocked as anyone when it happened. I would have bet the house on the big guy but what should have happened didn't happen. No one ever knows.

giriasis
05-12-2006, 04:43 PM
I daresay that those of us who are not soldiers can hardly contemplate what 'combat' is. Those of us who have never been in any type of combat other than a street altercation cannot know what it is like to have bombs raining down and whistling all around.

I'm with Mark, here. When one says "combat" I think of a war and what soldiers do. The rules of war are different from the rules of self-defense and the rules of fighting. These are three different situations. Having lost an uncle in war (he was Marine who died in Vietnam), I really cringe when people start talking about "combat" effectiveness, because what that sounds like to me is that you are only focused on killing people where I think most people are really concerned about self-defense (legally defending themselves against and unprovoked attack) and few are concern about fighting (where people pit their skills against one another).

Don_Modesto
05-12-2006, 05:14 PM
:grr:

:grr: ?!

Group therapy question of the day for the Anger Management Class?

Are you combat effective!..

"!" and not "?" ?!

a point may come that you have to defend yourself.. can you be effective enough to survive an actual combat..

Does this keep you awake nights?

Stress probably shortens more lives than violence. Can you be calm enough not to have an aneurism before you hit 17?

aldie
05-12-2006, 07:41 PM
Are you combat effective!.. I can say the dojo I'm learning Aikido from is indeed equipping it's practitioners to be combat effective..

We learn the real value of Aikido by learning it’s effectiveness against other forms of Martial Arts. We train to hand to hand combat, hand to armed combat, and armed to armed combat. Armed!.. meaning armed with a knife, a jo, a bokken, an arnis, a gun, a ballpen, and a lot more. We really don’t use real knives or guns but what is important is that you are taught of defending yourself effectively against all this through Aikido.

But hey!.. don’t be thinking that we view Aikido as an art simply to break bones, hurt people, or whatever. We do value most of all it’s timely principles and that we do prefer talking yourself out of trouble rather than.. you know!..

Thank you for your time!..

NagaBaba
05-12-2006, 09:37 PM
We really don't use real knives or guns but what is important is that you are taught of defending yourself effectively against all this through Aikido.
Ah, I'm so disapointed!!! I hoped for the first time in my short life to see somebody, who like O sensei could do a tenkan against the bullets......I even bought a ticket to Dumaguete City for next week. And now you tell me that you are cheating, that all your story about combat effectiveness is a fake????? :grr: no real knives?????? :grr: not even real guns????? :grr: .............You will have a hard time, because I'm coming with the real knives, live blade katana and a kalashnikov. :grr:

hope to see you soon Aldie!

Don_Modesto
05-12-2006, 09:40 PM
Are you combat effective!..

erm...appropos of...?

kaishaku
05-12-2006, 09:48 PM
No, but I am hermetically sealed for your protection.

raul rodrigo
05-12-2006, 10:01 PM
There are quite a few dojos in my country where the boast is their aikido is "combat effective." And then when you visit their dojos you find out that the sensei has no affiliation with an international aikido organization and no shihan to follow, the techniques are crude and very choreographed, and the odds are the entire school is just making do with techniques learned from books and videos. If it works for them, fine. But what this has to do with aikido is beyond me.

aldie
05-12-2006, 10:07 PM
Ah, I'm so disapointed!!! I hoped for the first time in my short life to see somebody, who like O sensei could do a tenkan against the bullets......I even bought a ticket to Dumaguete City for next week. And now you tell me that you are cheating, that all your story about combat effectiveness is a fake????? :grr: no real knives?????? :grr: not even real guns????? :grr: .............You will have a hard time, because I'm coming with the real knives, live blade katana and a kalashnikov. :grr:

hope to see you soon Aldie!

Wow!.. I don't think if your still training to be effective in Aikido that you would dare do tenkan or all sorts of techniques with real knives, or guns or whatever.. right?.. I have not heard of such a dojo..

But anyway the real purpose of it all using FAKE as you say is safety.. surely no one would want to be responsible for chopping off someone else’s fingers or arms :) .. or cutting yourself..

Anyway the real purpose their is to expose us practitioners on applying aikido techniques when your practice partner attacks you with let say a FAKE knife, or whatever..

Kevin Leavitt
05-12-2006, 10:21 PM
I think many of us have a different idea and expectations of what empty hand Martial arts will really do for you Aldle.

May be philosophical or simply a different paradiqm.

aldie
05-12-2006, 10:25 PM
There are quite a few dojos in my country where the boast is their aikido is "combat effective." And then when you visit their dojos you find out that the sensei has no affiliation with an international aikido organization and no shihan to follow, the techniques are crude and very choreographed, and the odds are the entire school is just making do with techniques learned from books and videos. If it works for them, fine. But what this has to do with aikido is beyond me.

Hi Raul,

Dude!.. it's now really on who or what a dojo is affiliated to.. that determines a sensei's skills and knowledge of Aikido. A sensei can attend to all the seminars and trainings there but still.. it all comes down to what really is a sensei's intention.. make business out of Aikido or pursue the true purpose of O'sensei for Aikido..

xuzen
05-12-2006, 10:48 PM
:grr: Are you combat effective!.. a point may come that you have to defend yourself.. can you be effective enough to survive an actual combat..

No I am not combat effective... because I do not know how to operate a AK-47, a Glock handgun or throw a hand grenade.

No I am not combat effective... because I do not know how to drive a tank or fly a F-18.

No I am not combat effective because I do not work for the military nor Law Enforcement.

So sorry.

batemanb
05-13-2006, 01:41 AM
:grr: Are you combat effective!.. a point may come that you have to defend yourself.. can you be effective enough to survive an actual combat..

Don't know, don't care. I don't practice Aikido to fight, I'm not interested in fighting or going up against other people or arts to test what I do. Does that make me weak or my Aikido ineffective? Does it mean that what I study is of no use? I guess if I ever find myself in a "situation", I'll find out.

Until then, I'm gonna carry on enjoying my practice, learning how to make people fall over, having fun and working on the Aikido principles of not fighting (which obviously require more practice as I posted in this thread ;) ).

rgds
Bryan

Michael Meister
05-13-2006, 02:32 AM
Don't know, don't care. I don't practice Aikido to fight, I'm not interested in fighting or going up against other people or arts to test what I do. Does that make me weak or my Aikido ineffective? Does it mean that what I study is of no use? I guess if I ever find myself in a "situation", I'll find out.

Until then, I'm gonna carry on enjoying my practice, learning how to make people fall over, having fun and working on the Aikido principles of not fighting (which obviously require more practice as I posted in this thread ;) ).

rgds
Bryan

I couldn't have said this better.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-13-2006, 07:29 AM
.............You will have a hard time, because I'm coming with the real knives, live blade katana and a kalashnikov. :grr:

hope to see you soon Aldie!

And, of course, the "Tenkan of Steel" :D

NagaBaba
05-13-2006, 08:21 AM
Wow!.. I don't think if your still training to be effective in Aikido that you would dare do tenkan or all sorts of techniques with real knives, or guns or whatever.. right?.. I have not heard of such a dojo..
How little you know! Founder of aikido did it himself.


But anyway the real purpose of it all using FAKE as you say is safety.. surely no one would want to be responsible for chopping off someone else's fingers or arms :) .. or cutting yourself..
If you don't know how to cut for real, you are not combat effective.

Anyway the real purpose their is to expose us practitioners on applying aikido techniques when your practice partner attacks you with let say a FAKE knife, or whatever..
Safety? now you are talking about safety?? :eek: Men, there is nothing safe in real combat. You can be dead in any second.

Soldiers in the army train to be combat effective. Do you think they should always use fake guns? :D :D :D :D :D
Instead of fire at the target with real gun, they will take wooden gun and say: "bum bum bum, you are dead !" :crazy:
Looks like you don't know at all what combat effective is. :rolleyes:

statisticool
05-13-2006, 08:26 AM
Instead of fire at the target with real gun, they will take wooden gun and say: "bum bum bum, you are dead !" :crazy:


No fights and death would ultimately be better for the world. :)

NagaBaba
05-13-2006, 08:26 AM
And, of course, the "Tenkan of Steel" :D
of course :cool:

Mark Freeman
05-13-2006, 09:09 AM
Don't know, don't care. I don't practice Aikido to fight, I'm not interested in fighting or going up against other people or arts to test what I do. Does that make me weak or my Aikido ineffective? Does it mean that what I study is of no use? I guess if I ever find myself in a "situation", I'll find out.

Until then, I'm gonna carry on enjoying my practice, learning how to make people fall over, having fun and working on the Aikido principles of not fighting (which obviously require more practice as I posted in this thread ;) ).

rgds
Bryan

Well said Bryan, my sentiments entirely :)

regards,
Mark

Neal Earhart
05-13-2006, 09:38 AM
Don't know, don't care. I don't practice Aikido to fight, I'm not interested in fighting or going up against other people or arts to test what I do. Does that make me weak or my Aikido ineffective? Does it mean that what I study is of no use? I guess if I ever find myself in a "situation", I'll find out.

Until then, I'm gonna carry on enjoying my practice, learning how to make people fall over, having fun and working on the Aikido principles of not fighting (which obviously require more practice as I posted in this thread ;) ).

rgds
Bryan

An excellent response...very well said ! :)

raul rodrigo
05-13-2006, 11:54 AM
Hi Raul,

Dude!.. it's now really on who or what a dojo is affiliated to.. that determines a sensei's skills and knowledge of Aikido. A sensei can attend to all the seminars and trainings there but still.. it all comes down to what really is a sensei's intention.. make business out of Aikido or pursue the true purpose of O'sensei for Aikido..


Yes, and a newbie can prattle on and on in Aikiweb about combat effectiveness but it doesn't mean he actually gets the point of aikido. There are some pretty skilled people in these forums, with 10 or 15 or 20 years experience with some of the best teachers in the world. If you're going to hold up your dojo as the paragon of combat effectiveness, then you shouldn't be surprised if they scoff at the idea that suddenly Dumaguete City has become the mecca of effective aikido.

Roman Kremianski
05-13-2006, 06:28 PM
Just gonna throw in my naive 16-year-old opinion.

I don't think saying "I just practise Aikido to learn not to fight" is good enough. Do everything you can not to, but be prepared to anyway.

I go to a highschool where I encounter enough aggressive people in my day (Naturally, highschool being the capital of teenage ego and wannabee badass-ness) and I have to deal with it peacefully.

It never hurts to train to be peaceful and at the same time bear in mind that someday you might get in a quirky situation which you can't simply walk away from . :freaky:

-Roman

Stephen Pate
05-13-2006, 09:17 PM
Soldiers in the army train to be combat effective. Do you think they should always use fake guns? :D :D :D :D :D
Instead of fire at the target with real gun, they will take wooden gun and say: "bum bum bum, you are dead !" :crazy:

We shoot each other with real guns, just fake bullets.

Kevin Leavitt
05-14-2006, 04:05 AM
although I have done my share of "bum, bum, bum" in the army too, mainly during rehearsal though as a prelude to blank fire, simunitions, and culminating with live fires. At least that was the idea. Still when bum, bum, bum alot! :)

I can certainly understand where Bryan Bateman is coming from and tend to agree for the most part. I think though it is a paradox. In aikido we train to "not fight", or what I prefer to say "to resolve conflict as skillfully as possible".

The paradox is that in order to be able to do this we must understand conflict as much as possible. The closer we can get to it, the more we study it and experience it the better we can understand it.

That does not mean we need to immerse ourselves in utter chaos and violence, becaue that too, can be unhealthly!

There is a "middle road" we can take I believe. That middle road will be different for each person. It is up to each individual to discover that road on their own. Aikido can be a good methodology to base finding that road.

I do think though, especially in aikido, we need to be careful as it is very tempting to hide behind the hakama, bokken, and all the trappings and say "I feel good about what I am doing", and "this peace and harmony stuff is wonderful!".

Dismissing the "darkside" of things and only concentrating on the "good" is not necessarily the right thing to do if we want to grow. Again, it is up to the individual to define what that is to them!

Counter to that, focusing on the tactical applications of aikido, the so-called "SU" side of things, focusing on situational/scenario based training all the time is not good either. Again...the middle road is the way to go, IMO.

Michael Meister
05-14-2006, 07:12 AM
In the Discworld novels of Terry Pratchett you find something along the lines, the most important thing about magic, is learning when not to use it, and the most powerful wizards are those who use magic the least...
One important thing is, in order to decide not to do, or to use something, you need to have the opportunity, the skill, the means to do or use it. This is not only a philosophical approach, it can get transmitted by the way people act, talk whatsoever.
Fact is, I did not start Aikido to learn to fight, or defend myself. I was looking for some kind of sport, and Aikido ended up being it. Some people probably are practising Aikido to learn a was to fight. In the end, what you get, is what you have been looking for.

aldie
05-14-2006, 09:00 PM
Hi,

Wow!.. well anyway I do believe any dojo's training depends entirely on the preference and the orientation of it’s sensei.. then its now up to you to ask is this the dojo for me or not.. our sensei.. is a member of the law enforcement here.. I do believe that his orientation in law enforcement has a great deal of influence on our training and instruction and we are glad of it. We get to learn a great deal of hand to hand, hand to armed, and armed to armed skills and knowledge.

In our training we get to appreciate the other forms of Martial Arts and saw its effectiveness and learn a great deal on its weaknesses and most off all learn the reason on why pursue this other Martial Arts when you can have Aikido. Through that I believe it added up to our appreciation and understanding of Aikido.

What really drive me to ask on “combat effectiveness” was to really to try to see how you see Aikido. Anyway thank you..

mathewjgano
05-14-2006, 09:08 PM
No one really knows how they will come out in a fight. You might perceive in your head how you'd wish things might turn out based on the conception of what you think you will incur in a "combat" fight (whatever that is). The truth is you don't know.
There are too many issues that come into play. The only thing you can do is to prepare yourself mentally, physically, and spiritually to be ready when the time comes.
Sometimes you are the bug, sometimes you are the windshield!
Hopefully you do all you can to minimize exposure and reduce risk. With a little bit of skill, and some luck thrown in...well you might survive....it just depends. No matter how good you are, everybody can be beaten and killed.
Well said! I'm more prepared in some forms of combat than others, but this world is simply huge and that leaves a lot of room to be blind-sided.
Gambatte,
Matt

mathewjgano
05-14-2006, 09:21 PM
:grr: Are you combat effective!.. a point may come that you have to defend yourself.. can you be effective enough to survive an actual combat..
Hi Aldie,
how do you define "combat"? I see many people interpret the word in some very specific ways, but I'm curious about your interpretation of the word.
Take care!
Matt

bratzo_barrena
05-15-2006, 09:52 AM
We can read the opinion of many aikido who state that "Aikido trians you not to fight."
If by "not to fight" they mean Aikido trains you to AVOID a "physical confrontation", they are 100% wrong. It just makes no sense.
The training of Aikido by its own nature teaches us to SOLVE a physical confrontation, not to avoid it.
Let's just use logic, we spend hours and hours, years actually, training what how to handle attacks, physicall attacks.
We dedicate a lot of effort to learn how Aikido principles are used to control a physical situation. Through Aikido principles we learn to SOLVE a PHYSICAL CONFRONATION in a non aggresive, non-competitive, non-violent way, when UNAVOIDABLE.
It just makes no sense that O'sensei dedicated his life to develope a martial art, and a training system based on a simulation of a physical confrontation, and then say Aikido is teaches to avoid conflict.
Lets use logic, the nature of Aikido training, the nature of Aikido principles, are to be used IN A PHYSICAL CONFRONTATION.
Now that its concepts could apply to other aspects of life, sure, but that does not deny the real nature of AIkido.
Even that a person trains just for fun, or health, or to be illuminated (what ever one's interpretation of that) does not deny nor contardicts the physical application and nature of AIkido.
And that is the same with any martial art or combat sport. One could say "I train box not to fight, but for cardio" which is great, but that does not deny the fact that box is for fighting.
So logic says Aikido trains people to SOLVE a physical confrontation when unavoidable, not to avoid physical confrontations.

Dennis Hooker
05-15-2006, 10:15 AM
I have been combating allergies all week and losing miserably. This damn Aikido doesn’t at all work against such an enemy. I had to do combat against kidney stones last month and I won that one. I used the old Aikido deep breathing technique extended Ki through my lower parts and blew them away.

By the way combat ready aikido is an oxymoron

Don_Modesto
05-15-2006, 03:19 PM
...many aikido state that "Aikido trians you not to fight."
If by "not to fight" they mean Aikido trains you to AVOID a "physical confrontation", they are 100% wrong.Sorry, they aren't. They are precisely right. You are largely wrong, however.
It just makes no sense.
To you, perhaps. Have you done your homework?
Let's just use logic
OK. But we limit ourselves thereby. We ought also to use history and context. And they often contradict logic. Just think of governmental supports for tobacco (history of economic necessity for a critical export)...today when we know how medacious is tobacco. It's not logical, but it is explainable.
It just makes no sense that O'sensei dedicated his life to develope a martial art, and a training system based on a simulation of a physical confrontation, and then say Aikido is teaches to avoid conflict.

The founder was the one who said (repeated, actually), "I am the universe."

Can you say, "part for whole substitution"?

Training is an enactment of conflict with ritual resolutions of it. Every part of aikido extrapolated from the concrete to the abstract in the mind of the founder. For those lacking knowledge or imagination, it may be nothing but fighting. Others have gone beyond this.

Don_Modesto
05-15-2006, 03:23 PM
I had to do combat against kidney stones last month and I won that one. I used the old Aikido deep breathing technique extended Ki through my lower parts and blew them away.

I'm betting they were polished upon evacuation! :)

JamesDavid
05-15-2006, 06:22 PM
I am not combat effective but my lawyer is

Tennessee Mike
05-15-2006, 07:41 PM
Combat Effective. How does one put oneself in the situation to prove they are combat effective? First it doesn't sound like aikido. Second, when I look at operational risk management, it doesn't seem beneficial to create a situation where one is at real risk. Therefore, we set up rules and find partners to help us increase the mastery of the skills that we do have while lowering the risk of injuries.

As for using live weapons, I have heard of people practicing iaido who have injured themselves and they were practicing solo in a controlled environment. You can add about any weapon there is. Someone has managed a way to accidentally hurt themselves with their own weapon.

I would also say that there is more than combat effective techniques. There is the aikidoka. It doesn't matter what martial art you know or weapon you have, if you freeze or do not act appropriately to the situation then you are not very combat effective.

billybob
05-16-2006, 01:26 PM
Modesto San Training is an enactment of conflict with ritual resolutions of it. Every part of aikido extrapolated from the concrete to the abstract in the mind of the founder. For those lacking knowledge or imagination, it may be nothing but fighting. Others have gone beyond this.

Wow. You do deliver.

I started judo to learn to kick ass! I stayed because I learned to avoid having my own ass kicked. I discovered my true power when I let the techniques turn into expresssions of joy. My attacker was my father. Killing him would have been to kill myself. I literally had to love my enemy. When I felt free of the need to learn to kill, the movement of judo was a pure expression of the joy of life.

I recently faced pain and fear I've been hiding from for 25 years. I think if I can trust a surgeon to use a knife on me and not kill (or castrate) me I may be able to let go of a lot of pain, a testicle long ago rendered useless, and be good at aikido, whether or not I give a damn about being 'combat ready'. I may not study another minute - but aikido has worked as advertised - the enemy was my own fears!

dave

Kevin Leavitt
05-16-2006, 01:32 PM
A good reason to study aikido Dave! Thanks for sharing!

emma.mason15
05-16-2006, 03:56 PM
Im gunna continue with the whole "running away thing"!
....
...
ohhhhh .... look whats over there!
....
....
*footsteps can be heard running away!*

aldie
05-16-2006, 08:31 PM
I’m sure that what I have written below will spark anger or whatever. I don’t care I’m just simply sharing to you my personal view on the issue…

I asked the question “are you combat effective” for I am confused with some Aikido practitioners if for the reason they are practicing Aikido because of the principles or teachings it has on conflict resolution, fighting without fighting, and on and on.. well this principles and this teachings is not new just about any Religion teaches this. If you are after this then wow clearly your wasting your time with Aikido why not join a religious organization and there you will find where all this principles are and I’m sure there is no entrance fee or monthly fees for retaining your membership. Surely the teachings there are far reaching than what Aikido is offering.

NagaBaba
05-16-2006, 09:04 PM
I'm sure that what I have written below will spark anger or whatever. I don't care I'm just simply sharing to you my personal view on the issue… .
I reality, we also don't care what you write, it is only excellent pretext to chat with friends :p

mathewjgano
05-17-2006, 06:42 AM
If you are after this then wow clearly your wasting your time with Aikido why not join a religious organization and there you will find where all this principles are and I'm sure there is no entrance fee or monthly fees for retaining your membership. Surely the teachings there are far reaching than what Aikido is offering.
I'm still very new to Aikido so what I've "learned" so far has a long way to go, but I try to learn Aikido to avoid smacking into forces more powerful than myself. In the same way I avoid a direct punch and use the physical movements of an attacker, I also try to avoid a fight by using the thoughts or behaviors of a potential attacker. I also learn Aikido because if I fail at avoiding a conflict, I want to know a better way of moving so i prevent myself from being harmed while at the same time trying to control the situation as best I can.
I suppose I could simply join some religious organization (to a large degree I have, in fact) but that doesn't mean I can't compliment what I learn from just such a group with what I learn from a martial art. I'm not sure how much sense I'm making, but in the same way I can apply the study of psychology or sociology to history, I might also be able to apply the study of conflict with the study of peace.
Sorry if I don't make much sense, but I guess in a way you could say I'm still figuring out what the heck I am doing when i train.
Take care,
Matthew

billybob
05-17-2006, 07:55 AM
Aldie,

I appreciate where you are coming from. Why study a martial art for non martial purposes?

Get a copy of Miyamoto Mushashi's "The Book of Five Rings" - get a copy that includes a history of this hero of Japan. After totally mastering the sword, and ways of combat he put aside fighting. He wanted more out of life.

I have read that fully spiritually enlightened religious seekers in the Buddhist and Hindu traditions - continue to sit and meditate as they did before they realized the ultimate truth. Why?

I'll leave it to you.

In a practical sense - when you do multiple opponent and begin to see all the space on the mat - not the attackers - you begin to realize how very safe you are. There is more 'safe' space - all around the hand or weapon that approaches you. When your mind flips around to this you will (you may, sir) feel your mind open. There are other things to learn - things you don't know, that you don't know.

Imagine the things we don't know.

dave

Mark Freeman
05-17-2006, 08:07 AM
Imagine the things we don't know.

dave

Thank's for that Dave, :rolleyes: do you realise I'm not going to get anything done for the rest of the day ;)

regards,

Mark :confused:

Don_Modesto
05-17-2006, 10:31 AM
I discovered my true power when I let the techniques turn into expresssions of joy.

Funny how that works, right?

I was similarly distracted from my intention of being a karate bad-ass by the intrinsic beauty of well-executed technique and the real feeling of harmony felt in intense KUMITE.

My attacker was my father. Killing him would have been to kill myself. I literally had to love my enemy. When I felt free of the need to learn to kill, the movement of judo was a pure expression of the joy of life.

Tough stuff, this. Good you found a good dojo. Glad aikido is working for you.

It's been very educational to me, someone sort of a rough-neck in youth, how horrifying the ritualistic, sometimes rather artificial attacks we go at each other with in aikido can be for someone with a traumatized background.

Thanks for the post.

billybob
05-17-2006, 10:41 AM
Thanks for listening. The enlightened are silent. I think I'll become more quiet when it hurts less.

:)

dave

Don_Modesto
05-17-2006, 11:11 AM
....conflict resolution, fighting without fighting, and on and on.. well this principles and this teachings is not new just about any Religion teaches this. If you are after this then wow clearly your wasting your time with Aikido why not join a religious organization and there you will find where all this principles are and I'm sure there is no entrance fee or monthly fees for retaining your membership. Surely the teachings there are far reaching than what Aikido is offering.You sure?

Prominent American minister Pat Robertson has called for the covert execution of Kim Jong Il. He must have the footnoted version of the Ten Commandments. None of mine are followed by such terms as "except" or "unless it's totally, like, unconvenient, ya know?"

In fact, as Zen practitioner Brian Victoria suggests in his books on Zen in war, religions usually follow the lead of the governments they exist under. So much for rendering unto god that which is god's, right? Religion is no sinecure against brutality.

Let's see, who has been against the current catastrophe in Iraq?--Aha! the men in the military who would have to fight it. Start with Colin Powell.

How ironic, peace through the military. And other martial arts?

Perhaps far afield of the concerns of most aikidoists, I found a source in The Weaving of the Mantra: Kukai and the Construction of the Esoteric Buddhist Discourse, by Ryuichi Abé which most satisfyingly explains to me the very real dilemma you face so conclusively and dismissively.

He traces religious patriarch Kukai's efforts to actualize Buddhism "in this very life" and distance believers from the empty disputation and endless grinding of fine logic characteristic of Buddhism in his time. He did this through ritual which was intended to give one the experience of Buddhism before and beyond words or conceptualizations.

FWIW, this ritual entailed that mantra (sic) so familiar to aikidoists—"unification of mind and body." This was a linchpin of Kukai's practice, the SANMITSU, the three mysteries, of mind (mandala), spirit/speech (mantra), and body (mudra). While contemplating the Buddhas in some mandala and reciting the "true words" of mantra and forming further iterations of truth with hand gestures, one came to be the dharma. No, the practitioner's DNA didn't change into said Buddhas, and maybe the aikido doesn't work as self-defense. Those are smaller questions than what is being aspired to.

My own thought on Osensei's intentions is that he took Kukai's efforts as paradigm to his own: aikido is meant to give one the experience conflict resolution before and beyond words or conceptualizations.

That a search for spiritual peace ought to be realized in violent form, I think, speaks to the psychology of those brutalized by the cowardice and hypocrisy of religionists and politicians and other purveyors of mellifluous words. Some folk just need to work it out at the lowest common denominator and refine their BS detectors back up to civility.

But it is, indeed, the explicit goal of aikido to work its way back up.

Kevin Leavitt
05-17-2006, 11:45 AM
Aldle wrote:

Aikido why not join a religious organization and there you will find where all this principles are and I'm sure there is no entrance fee or monthly fees for retaining your membership. Surely the teachings there are far reaching than what Aikido is offering.

most religious organizations only concern themselves with one aspect of a persons development...the spiritual side. Many, like myself, would submit that religion does not necessarily equate to spiritualism. Although, most that go to mainstream organized religion are there for spiritual reasons.

Aikido on the other hand (and things like yoga), are more holistic in nature as practices. The attempt to align the mind, body, and spirit. Aikido also deals heavily with conflict resolution, both internal within yourself, and in your interactions with others.

If you can resolve conflict or better deal with it, you will be happier, if you are happier, then I think it that is a perfect reason to study something with aikido.

I personally think you are wasting your time if you are studying budo or martial arts for self defense...why not take a gun class, or learn how to use mace, or a taser, or take a risk avoidance seminar? money and time better spent if this is what you are going to reduce martial arts and aikido to.

Kevin Leavitt
05-17-2006, 11:51 AM
Don Modesto wrote:

How ironic, peace through the military. And other martial arts?

Yea go figure, I am an infantry officer at the largest military training site in Eurpoe directly training soldiers to go "down range"....on top of that I practice the tenants of buddhism and I am a devote vegetarian/vegan. The world is a very complicated place! I have learned over the years that conflict is very complicated.

If it was not, we'd have no use for all this "art of war" stuff....we'd simply get the biggest and most effective weapon we could find and use it whenever someone disagreed with us for whatever reason.

Michael Douglas
05-18-2006, 02:55 PM
tenets