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AikiTom
07-10-2000, 10:55 PM
A couple years back when a friend of mine returned to our dojo, he asked what we were practicing. I kiddingly answered, "Rokkyo," (you know, ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokkyo, rokkyo)with a straight face, thinking I'd "made up" a technique.
Later doing some reading, I came across such a technique in one or two places - I believe one source was either a Yoshinkan or Daito-ryu text.
Anybody out there practice rokkyo in their dojo or style?
Please describe it.
Is it derived from O-Sensei, or someone else?
Any "shichikyo"s, etc.?
Arigato, in advance!

Nick
07-10-2000, 11:19 PM
I've heard of it, but never done it.

My dojo does usually only through sankyo- I've heard that yonkyo doesn't work on everyone, so it's not practiced often (heh... it most certainly works on me). As a newbie, I don't know much about rokkyo, though I heard gokyo is kind of like ikkyo but not (that's the best description I've heard), and I've not done yonkyo enough to explain it.

-Nick

Chuck Clark
07-10-2000, 11:35 PM
We have a technique in our syllabus known as "wakigatame" which some folks have told me is very similar to what they call rokkyo.

andrew
07-11-2000, 05:53 AM
Rokkyo is apparently what we call hiji-kimeosae. Its a technique used against a punch where you enter outside the shoulder, twisting the arm outside and upwards and bringing Uke to the ground by the shoulder. You can easily twist a knife from Ukes hand after it's done.

Gokkyo is a variant on Ikkyo designed specifically to avoid a knife in Ukes hand. You come inside and grip the wrist in the opposite way and then always go outside to finish the technique. Better than cutting your wrist...

Not everybody can work Yonkyo, it's not a control you can demonstrate and see copied straight away. The only way to get it working is to practice it until you get it enough to recognise it. Most techniques that don't work are just done badly, although some people just need a little extra something added to the control to cause pain to start. Anyhow, nobody's immune to being brought to the ground by Yonkyo and in all honesty Uke will have one hell of a stuggle to get up and no chance of adoiding atemi.
andrew

dbgard
07-11-2000, 10:48 AM
Here's my opion on the "missing" 6th technique.

Perhaps the Founder wanted us to know that our 6th sense is the most powerful technique we have. This Divine Connection allows us to do the will of God, which may - in turn - manifest itself in the from of ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo..etc...

I happen to enjoy working with textbook techiniques, and studying them to find some hybrid waza. However to try to put these in a book and claim "I have discovered the 6th Lesson!!! Everyone bow before my eternal presence" would bring me from superego into a subtle combination of an idiot and an egomaniac.

This is a great post/thread/idea, many thanks to the guy/girl who initiated it...

love,
drew

Pete
07-11-2000, 11:05 AM
dbgard said :

However to try to put these in a book and claim "I have discovered the 6th Lesson!!! Everyone bow before my eternal presence" would bring me from superego into a subtle combination of an idiot and an egomaniac.

================================

So, Drew, are you saying that, at present you are superego?


Pet 'couldn't resist' S.

dbgard
07-11-2000, 11:24 AM
Pete wrote:
dbgard said :


So, Drew, are you saying that, at present you are superego?


Pet 'couldn't resist' S.

Pete,

Yes I feel I'm superego, thanks to much meditation, open-mindedness, and AIKIDO !!!! My problem now is trying to make ma-ai into maai, that way I can be a superego and be happy ! 8). I think you are superego as well, Pete, for what it's worth I think I can tell that from your posts.

Love,
Drew

Tim Haffner
07-11-2000, 02:12 PM
Nidai Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba demonstrates in his 1957 book "Aikido", on pg. 139 "ude hishigi". The technique involves rotating the attackers extended arm so that the elbow is facing up and the arm straight out. Nage then traps the elbow with his/her armpit and lowers down, excerting pressure on the elbow. This is called arm smashing in the description but is what is now known as Rokkyo, especially in the Iwama style.
Saito sensei, in the 1999 book "Trakemusu Aikido vol. 5: Budo" on pg. 140 demonstrates this technique againsts a straight thrust from a bayonet rifle. He calls the technique Juken tsuki rokkyo.
I've seen Pat Hendricks sensei, demonstrate this technique from an unarmed tsuki as rokkyo at a seminar in Ft. Lauderdale. She also demonstrated a technique from tsuki known as "nanakyo", the other pronunciation for seven, indicating the seventh teaching. Nanakyo is demonstrated, but not named, against yokomenuchi in Saito sensei's 1974 book Traditional Aikido vol. 4: Vital Techniques, on page 108. This involves the same entry as shihonage, but nage does not bring the arm up over his head while rotating. Instead, with the Shiho type arm twisted inward, nage leads uke in an ura(tenkan) movement and lowers uke down to the ground. The katame/osae waza is b bracing the elbow and drawing nage's wrist rearward. I found it quite effective.
It's my understanding that these techniques were always used but left unnamed until recently when Saito sensei catalogued them as Osae waza. I haven't heard about hatikyo or kyukyo, though. There's enough to memorize as is!

David H
07-11-2000, 02:45 PM
Training in the U.K.A. (An English organisation)we recognise Rokkyo as a valid technique. Tim Heffner's description including the ude hishige part is accurate. Certainly elbow or arm crushing is an apt translation. The technique is extemely good defence for a tsuki thrust with tanto, jo or bokken. With care you can use against bokken shomenuchi or during bokken partner practice as tachi dori. Tori should try and lower their centre so that the hand that takes uke's wrist does so from almost underneath (keep your elbow down)- more difficult with weapons - so that the action of rotating uke's arm has the full effect of taking their posture. I have always found this excellent for strong people who do not expect to be moved in this manner. And yes it hurts !!
Tim - I'm not sure about your described seventh technique - this sounds more like one of the variations of shihonage for a different situation.

Tim Haffner
07-11-2000, 03:01 PM
I agree that teh description sounds confusing. That's why I referred to the books, but they may be hard to find.
Imagine the normal shiho entry from yokomenuchi. In Iwama it is said that the grasping hand takes hold of uke's wrist with the nage's thumb on the pulse. As a result of this, uke's arm is twisted inward. Nage's free hand is formed as tegatana and braces the crook of uke's elbow. Nage then makes an ura/tenkan movement, similar to Ikkyo, while holding uke's arm in the same position. When uke lands face down, nage positions his inside knee at uke's armpit. Nage pins uke's elbow to the ground, at an angle rearward of perpendicular and draws back the outside knee at the same time as drawing uke's wrist/hand rearward. This creates tension on the shoulder joint.
I hope that clarifies the mechanics of it. However, I think what is important is that rokkyo and nanakyo are now classified in Iwama as Osae waza, pinning techniques. These go right alongside the traditional pinning techniques of Ikkyo-Gokyo. The focus in all of these techniques are the final pin, not just the entry and take down.

Keith
07-11-2000, 06:19 PM
rokkyo and nanakyo are now classified in Iwama as Osae waza
Interesting. I've read that various arts based the concept of a gokyo on five element theory. Daito-ryu, yamate-ryu, and judo all have a curriculum of techniques they call a gokyo. The difference in Aikido is that we use the term to refer to a specific technique. 5 elements, 5 teachings, each with a feel connected to an element. That's why I've always looked at the idea of "rokkyo" as a little misguided. But perhaps I've missed something.

Oh, and if yonkyo doesn't work, you've done it wrong. Probably because you (not necessarily you particularly Nick, I'm speaking in the general sense) were trying to make a pressure point hurt rather than using the wrist to control the body. The technical name for it tekubi osae - wrist pin, not pressure point attack.

Enough outta me.
Keith

AikiTom
07-11-2000, 10:07 PM
:) :) :)
Excellent responses all! Thanks so much for the input.
Nick, regarding yonkyo, I believe there are two accepted versions.
The first, which you mentioned is the one where the base of nage's index finger is applied to the inside of uke's wrist about 3 finger-widths above where the wrist begins. A very exciting and stimulating move - supposedly beneficial to blood pressure, and you can actually practice on yourself. I've ready about people who had to practice this for an hour at a time,,,really helps you remember "the spot." Problems is that humans don't come with standardized location of body parts, and that "spot" varies. When time's of the essence, there's little time to search for it.
Thus, the version I normally use, and I believe I just saw perhaps in Aikido Journal (?), whereby a sankyo lock is obtained and one hand slides up to work the "blade" (for lack of a better term" part of the lower forearm facing you. Then, cut down as in a sword cut.
When I've taught this I always call it the "faith move," because you've got to have faith it'll work to pull it off.
It can bring desired amounts of pain and you can lower uke's wrist all the way down to the mat, or throw.
Again, thanks all, and to any future replies!

Tim Haffner
07-12-2000, 01:08 PM
Keith said:
The technical name for it tekubi osae - wrist pin, not pressure point attack.


I'm really glad that you brought that up, its something that I have to keep reminding myself. All of the Osae waza are for control and pinning, not for causing pain, per se. Focus on performing the technique-not making uke wince. Good point!

akiy
07-13-2000, 12:10 AM
Jumping in a bit late here...

I've been in dojo that practice rokkyo, and other dojo which do not.

The wakigatame that Chuck mentions is like rokkyo, but the way I've seen it done more frequently is as a ground pin (rather than standing). Often, it's done during tanto dori.

As far as yonkyo goes, my limited experience with the technique has been that I've had to work with it as a balance-breaking technique rather than a pain-compliance one. Sometimes, I just can't get the pressure point. Also, as far as I'm concerned, I would rather train to control than train to cause pain...

-- Jun

mjchip
07-13-2000, 09:43 AM
Hi Folks,

With regards to Rokkyo, it is part of our curriculum(USAF-WR) and although there are quite a few variations they all have one thing in common.....they affect uke's center through pressure against the normal direction of motion of the elbow joint.

As far as Yonkyo is concerned, not practicing it because it doesn't always work seems like broken logic. If that was the guideline for which techniques were practiced in my dojo, we'd just sit around and look foolishly at each other. :) Seriously, as others have pointed out, we have a much better chance at making Yonkyo "work" if we understand that the goal here (as with just about every other aikido technique) is to control uke via their center and not just cause pain. Sure, pain happens sometimes but it is incidental if the technique is done properly.

In aiki spirit,

Mark

P.S. Hi Jun and Chuck!

Ken
07-26-2000, 10:51 PM
My dojo doesn't practice beyond gokkyo but my sensei has demonstrated rokkyo a few times, which is pretty much what has been described in previous posts.

My impression is that it is similar to the elbow locking technique but with nage going to the ground with uke. My sensei says the name is derived from the body positions of both nage and uke looking like the kanji for the number "6".

Cheers!

Ken

henrik-a
07-28-2000, 10:11 AM
IMHO
Yonkyo is not about preassure points. As any Aikido technique itīs about taking ukes balace. If you however is intrested in inflicting pain it should be noted that you don't need to find a certain point. The preassure is applied on nerves that run near the bones. These nerves are located on every bones in the body. Try doing yonkyo on someones leg.
If you dont "find the spot" i suggest you press harder in order to push the muscles that ar in the way of the nerves aside, or trying to find parts of the bone that isn't covered with muscles.

Henrik

akiy wrote:
Jumping in a bit late here...

I've been in dojo that practice rokkyo, and other dojo which do not.

The wakigatame that Chuck mentions is like rokkyo, but the way I've seen it done more frequently is as a ground pin (rather than standing). Often, it's done during tanto dori.

As far as yonkyo goes, my limited experience with the technique has been that I've had to work with it as a balance-breaking technique rather than a pain-compliance one. Sometimes, I just can't get the pressure point. Also, as far as I'm concerned, I would rather train to control than train to cause pain...

-- Jun

MikeE
07-28-2000, 10:52 AM
I don't believe the pain is "incidental" in yonkyo. I do believe the pain is transitional. If uke moves how and where nage wants it doesn't hurt.

A trick I show my class is sitting crosslegged. Put the first finger pad on the inside of the opposite ankle and project energy through your finger. It lets people feel yonkyo on themselves.

Having it done repeatedly on me I have developed a bit of an immunity but when someone projects their energy in the fashion of a sword strike ( or bolt lock) I drop like a stone.

bsnyder
07-28-2000, 03:00 PM
I practice aiki-style aikido with Yamada and Kanai Senseis. We never have done anything past gokyo; at least I haven't.

I went to a seminar several years ago. Chiba and Shibata Senseis were among the instructing crew. They're both Aikikai from the west coast. That's where I first saw rokkyo. I went to chiba Sensei's dojo and picked up a copy of his multi-volume video set. He does rokkyo all over the place in there.

It's a pretty cool technique.

Butch Snyder

AikiTom
07-29-2000, 10:09 PM
Once again, I appreciate all the replies to the rokkyo question.

It seems I led a digression to the yonkyo question, and I'd like to clarify it. As I discussed the pressure point pain that was caused, I didn't mean to imply that pain was the "end", rather it's the "means" to the technique, that is to effect the technique with an "off-balancing" of the mind caused by the momentary pain.

One thing I must disagree with, though, are the mentions in this thread that pressure points are incidental or not necessary in aikido. When you read accounts of O-Sensei's techniques by people who served as his ukes, they say he was using pressure points all the time. Also, take a look at the video of O-Sensei grasping the hand of a young Terry Dobson and leading him all over the place, all bent over - I don't know for sure what's going on, but it looks to me like pressure points, not a joint lock.
Please don't take this for any more or any less than this - I'm not a kyusho jitsu guy or anything like that. But, techniques like ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, shihonage - they've all got pressure point applications in them, and to me they're really nothing but a different type of atemi that quickly unfocuses uke's mind in preparation for a pin or throw.

Greg Jennings
07-30-2000, 11:48 PM
Tim Haffner wrote:
(SNIP)

This is how both rokkyo and nanakyo are executed in our dojo.

We also have something that Sensei has never given a name that is a hiji-nage similar to an inverted rokkyo. That is, uke's elbow is facing down and is locked upwards across nage's bicep. Uke's balance is broken upwards and away vice down and in as in rokkyo.

As in nanakyo, we normally get into this technique from similar beginnings to shihonage omote, but instead of raising and extending, nage grasps uke's hand in front of his center and locks the elbow over nage's bicep/inside of his elbow. Uke's center is taken with a turn and lift of nage's hips. Nage then enters into the elbow forcing uke to take a fall in the opposite direction.

I'm not a big fan of the technique. It's tough on my tender elbows.

FWIW, Greg J. http://www.capitalcityaikido.com

[Edited by Greg Jennings on July 30, 2000 at 10:50pm]

Victor
08-21-2000, 04:49 AM
IMHO, you can't understand a technique without seeing and practicing it...

andrew
08-21-2000, 06:16 AM
"IMHO, you can't understand a technique without seeing and practicing it...
__________________"

Very true. In Tiki Shewans book on Iaido (I read an extract on teaching movement) he says that not only has he never observed somebody learning better when given a verbal explanation, but also that they usually learn worse.
andrew

Aikisho-1
08-21-2000, 11:09 AM
Hello-

I don't think we can single-out yonkyo as the only technique that doesn't always work.You could say that about just about every technique.Some people are double-jointed,so shihonage can become difficult to apply on them,for example.Aikido is the art of adapting.The main focus should be on control,not pain.Yonkyo will work on most people,if you are focusing on controlling them,and not just causing them pain.
If you center yourself right,they can't get up.Thus,pain is not nessesary.I think controlling the uke,is the most important aspect f aikido.Just learn good control,and when something like yonkyo doesn't work,you can adapt.

DJM
08-21-2000, 12:52 PM
Aikisho-1 wrote:

Hello-

I don't think we can single-out yonkyo as the only technique that doesn't always work.You could say that about just about every technique.Some people are double-jointed,so shihonage can become difficult to apply on them,for example.Aikido is the art of adapting.The main focus should be on control,not pain.Yonkyo will work on most people,if you are focusing on controlling them,and not just causing them pain.
If you center yourself right,they can't get up.Thus,pain is not nessesary.I think controlling the uke,is the most important aspect f aikido.Just learn good control,and when something like yonkyo doesn't work,you can adapt.
Well said - I agree with most of the above - Aikido is about controlling uke's centre. Pain is only a distraction from that process (that is in both senses of the word - distracting both uke and tori) - in my experience at least..
I'd take issue with only 1 point, a relatively minor one.. It's that there's no such thing as being double-jointed, only very flexible (as proven at a recent summer school, by a friend who's uke persistently claimed to be double-jointed ;)).
I think - at least my current goal - is that you should aim to never have to 'make a technique work'. That if the principles are there, and used, the technique (whatever it happens to be) will work easily - which is where the sensitivity we develop as uke comes about full circle - leading us to fully connect with uke in turn, allowing the correct technique to develop..

Just a couple thoughts,
David

Chocolateuke
08-22-2000, 12:14 AM
Greg I looked at ur wbsite and noticed under fun stuff u where doing an wrist ushiro waza fumikomi hiji otoshi or that is what it is called in our dojo I ams learning ushiro waza and was wondering if u have any points on that throw.

rokkyu never done it herd of it thoug.

Yonka jo works like a charm I like shaming heads on the wall with it. :)

kidding about the wall part

Greg Jennings
08-23-2000, 09:00 PM
Chocolateuke wrote:
Greg I looked at ur wbsite and noticed under fun stuff u where doing an wrist ushiro waza fumikomi hiji otoshi or that is what it is called in our dojo I ams learning ushiro waza and was wondering if u have any points on that throw.

Thanks for visiting my site.

In my dojo we call the technique you're referring to ushiro ryotekubidori sankyo ura kihon waza. The mental image I have is of uke's arm in a downward spiral of decreasing radius. Like a corkscrew.


rokkyu never done it herd of it thoug.

I'll try to get some pictures and do an animated gif. I'm tired of the one you mention anyway, I just haven' t been able to get the right pics for a new one.


Yonka jo works like a charm I like shaming heads on the wall with it. :)
kidding about the wall part

Yonkyo is easy if uke's balance is fully taken. Of course that's like saying it's easy to get rich if you can accurately predict stock market trends. ;)

I subscribe to the Faringi (sp?) (Star Trek TNG) rules of Aikido: Rule 1. Take their center. Rule 2. Once you have their center, never give it back.

FWIWYMMV,