View Full Version : revenge

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07-22-2001, 03:20 PM
hey aikidoka and martal artis out there. have you ever had a partner who perferably a tory ( thrower) who messases up on a throw or strike or any aspect of a movement then blames it on you the uke?? have you ever had it where to thrower does the lock a little harder or does the throw a little harder because they messed up and blamed it on you?? this happened to me last night when we were doing kotegashi and my the tory i was working with lost balance and got angery and did the lock much harder than average and hurt my arm a little ( ie it still hurts) and I thought hey is this normal??

07-22-2001, 04:49 PM
Hi Dallas
I hope your arm is feeling better by now! Sometimes uke (or nage) can get hurt on the mat, not by accident, and you're right, it's not right. Ego is ususally involved, and in my opinion it can be the fault of uke, nage, or often both.
In one situation, nage (tori?) is doing something wrong, blames his uke, and then throws a lot of muscle or undue speed into the next technique. How do I handle someone like that? I either avoid working with them, or am careful not to provoke their ego: I don't fight the technique anyway, but if you do I wouldn't with someone like this. I also check out with my PARTNER when the technique is obviously not going well if there is something they would like differently from me---not only does this help 'disarm' the revenge motive in nages like this, but also sometimes it IS uke's fault. How?
We all know the technique being done, and the energy and direction of force needed on uke's attack for nage to direct and control him. So it is easy to unconsciously (or consciously) refuse to provide that energy. This is bad on uke's part, not only because it deprives their PARTNER of a chance to practice the shown technique correctly, but it shows a refusal on uke's part to do the attack as his sensei would prefer (so practice can continue)---the same ego as seen in the above nage: 'ha, you can't do this technique'. If nage cannot do the technique as shown due to uke refusing to give the correct force or direction of force to complete the technique, he has usually four options: inform uke what needs to change in their attack so that injury-free practice continues; give up on the technique all together; perform a different technique (which might catch uke off guard and hurt him) based on what uke is providing; try to complete the technique, which may hurt uke if uke is providing more energy that uke can handle if the technique is done.
Which brings me to the end of this long answer: my goal as uke is to provide the attack that will allow my partner to practice the technique. If things don't go well I am willing to look at it may be due to how I am attacking, my committment to attack and connection, my willingness to move in relation to my partner in a smart way (e.g. don't present a weak area to them while refusing to move where they need you to go for the technique, often seen when ego meets ikkyo). But if all else fails, I understand the attack and the technique--I don't attack harder or faster than I can fall, and don't resist to a point I can't control my fall if the technique is done. As uke I am giving my body to my partner to practice the technique, but I am responsible for avoiding injury to it by an awareness of what he is doing to it.
Put some ice on that wrist and good luck!

07-23-2001, 03:28 AM
Maybe your partner just had a bad day? I know the people in our dojo, most of them are very nice persons. But still this situations occur from time to time. If I'm training with someone I've been knowing for years it's o.k. Sometimes I can't avoid, too, that I carry some leftovers of a hard day on the mat and I'm glad that there are people who understand. Nobody of us would hurt a partner on purpose. But sometimes it just happens.
Training with new people or someone on a seminar is different. When someone new, especially those who trained in other MA, has to show off by hurting people, they are to be stopped.
And I know someone attending lots of seminars who injurs people really badly where ever he appears. This are people I avoid. All the others get another chance.


07-23-2001, 07:09 PM
Revenge is a dish best eaten cold.

07-23-2001, 08:55 PM
thank you guys for the replies. i know that it can be the ukes fault. but the guy i was training with is 5th kyu and I have known him for 15 years.. he is a great aikidokas... but has a big ego at times. we were doing the first throw we ever learned kotegashi and my teacher has been telling us higher students ( 5th kyu and up) to provide some resistans so... he lost his balence and my arm is now healing from the injury!!

yes nage= tori and uke =uke!!

but I know both parties can be blamed to... again thanks! just making sure i wasnt alone!

07-23-2001, 08:58 PM
Glad you are doing a bit better, at least.

07-23-2001, 09:01 PM
dang ca that was fast!! i was looking at training and saw a nother reply by ca... well thank you!! now gotta go to the general fourms....

07-24-2001, 05:25 PM
Sounds as though you found yourself in a very dangerous position: resisting enough to antagonize your partner, but not enough to obtain a superior position or protect yourself. IMO, better simply to fall down immediately.