Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

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[AikiWeb System]

AikiWeb Poll for the week of April 30, 2006:

What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

I don't do aikido
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0


Here are the current results (http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=322).

[Evza]

Hello, does anyone have an idea of what the poll is about?
I'm afraid I don't understand the question at all.
How did you understand it?

[Pauliina Lievonen]

I think this is certainly the oddest poll I've seen here so far. :D I have no idea what to answer either.... I've always liked the number 21 for some reason, but that's not an option in the poll. :D

kvaak
Pauliina

[Mark Uttech]

I agree. This poll makes little sense.

[Amelia Smith]

This is easily the oddest poll question I've seen yet on aikiweb! I voted for 3, because we've got the nage, uke, and whatever is going on between them (technique, teaching, etc). Also there's the square-circle-triangle thing, and the fact that "aikido" is made up of 3 kanji. Then I could spout off a lot of quasi-trinitarian stuff about mind, body, and spirit. So yes, 3 is my vote!

[Bowjamer]

what? are we rating our form or comparing it to a number ? Since I'm a beginer I would be lucky to be a 2 on a scale from 1 to 10 otherwise it might look like a 4 with it going in different dirctions with short choppy movements and not circular enough.

[ajbarron]

Wow what a great question ! What could it mean ? Call in Dan Brown or Indiana Jones.. How did it get here ? What number was O'Sensei? What number is my sensei ? Chuck Norris; could he be beyond numbers or is he all numbers? Who might qualify for a letter? Who is between numbers,or not yet a number, or beyond numbers?

Or is the answer to choose a number, and be the best number that you choose that you can be ? Or to paraphrase William Shatner "Get a life; it's only Aikido" which should really annoy some of you. Don't get me wrong I love Aikido and hate to miss sessions and seminars but it is part of, not all of my life.

This is my theory very early on a Sunday morning with no coffee in me and the wind blowing outside and my family snoring and the dogs sleeping and me just going on and on and on..........

[Lucy Smith]

Yeah I have no idea what the poll is about. Why did so many ppl voted 8??? Is it something about the circular movements or whatever??

(Come on Jun, a little hint here)

[Mark Freeman]

Why is "42" not an option?

[Qatana]

eight resembles two bodies moving through and around a shared center.
Just a guess...

[Richard Langridge]

There can be only one!

[Don_Modesto]

Evocative question.

Probably something Osensei would make hay with...

...shape...
...sound...
...kanji...
...Roman Numerals...
...correspondences with: ONE soul, TWO parent gods Izanami and Izanagi...heaven, earth, and human...FOUR spirits...

[jducusin]

Thanks for the funniest, most bizarre poll ever.

For the sake of humouring it, however, I voted "0" --- my Aikido has a form, but no substance within it. :D

[ESimmons]

I voted "1".

"Ai" means harmony. Harmony is when two or more things become one or act in unison.

Also, the numeral 1 is basically a straight line. It is direct. It is like receiving a committed attack or entering in to meet it.

[SeiserL]

0 = I keep going around or over in a circle.
What does it get me? Zero

[RebeccaM]

I second whoever wanted "42" as an answer.

I refuse to assign my aikido any numbers. I deal with enough numbers at work. I don't want to bring them on the mat with me too. :P

[sullivanw]

4 - four sides to a square :p

Maybe 8 is popular because tipped over it becomes the symbol for infinity. I like the suggestion about two circles moving about a common center too.

Interesting thread,

-Will

[giriasis]

~scratches head~ Has Jun branched out into Zen Koans? ~scratches head~

[kaishaku]

Probably trying to make a poll that doesn't receive a bell curve response.

[Robyn Johnson]

This is a really wierd poll. I voted "0" because Aikido is a circular art, and techniques are supposed to eventually become muscle memory (no mind= 0). :circle:

Robyn Johnson :)

[Shannon Frye]

Have to ask this...how is it that so many people don't "get" this question?

In Shaolin Wushu, we often trained hand movements relative to drawing numbers. This didn't seem a very diffficult question. I imagined a few techniques (like irimi nage), and saw that my body favored an 8 pattern.

Almost every aikido dojo Ive been in has a great big O drawn in it somewhere. Kinda like a big zero, no?

[Evza]

Have to ask this...how is it that so many people don't "get" this question?


Well, maybe it's that I get to meet so many numbers at school that it didn't occur to me to imagine anything...
A number is just a number to me.

[jk]

The 8's a gimme if you're Cantonese...

[ajbarron]

42.....................................................WHY DIDN'T i tHINK OF THAT. tHANKS FOR THE FISH

[Charles Bergman]

What??????? :hypno:

[Jennifer Grahn]

yOU'RE NOT gOING TO LIKE IT mUCH...

[James Davis]

I voted "2" because if you watched my aikido from above, you would probably see circular movement followed by a change in direction. All of the movement would be curved instead of angular, but that's what it would look like from a bird's eye view. :)

[ajbarron]

Charles,

Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe""So long and Thanks for all the Fish" by Douglas Adams

The meaning of life , as per The Guide is 42.

Excuse my obtuse humour.........................Sorry

[kironin]

I voted "1"

because aikido is not a circular art.

because 1 cut (of my sword)

because I am thinking up-down like a "1"

because ikkyo

because my mind and body are 1

because irimi exists even in tenkan

etc...
:ki:

[BC]

Pi

[giriasis]

phi

[Qatana]

At the risk of thread hijacking, I Must point out that 42 is Not the "meaning of life". It is simply the Answer to the Great Question about Life, the Universe, and Everything.

[Nick Pagnucco]

I think my aikido most closely resembles the square root of -1.
In other words, my aikido often appears to be imaginary. :rolleyes: ;)

[Dirk Hanss]

While pi and e and i have some charme, it mostly comes back to 0 and 8.
Zero as empty mind - in any writing and 0 as the circle, the whole universe.
8 or hachi as ki exercise (Chiniese 8 in Qigong), as the luck you don't need, but gain by doing perfect aikido, Arab 8 as two combined circles and if you lay it on the side it is the symbol for infinity.

That were my thought before I checked the results, but I do not vote here.

Dirk

[Lucy Smith]

because aikido is not a circular art.


What are you smoking?? :confused:

[siwilson]

because aikido is not a circular art

Have you practiced Aikido?

If you have you either haven't understood you Sensei or you should change your Sensei. Aikido IS a circular art. Even when looking at the older forms, the harder styles, it is still circular, even if it is more direct and entering.

So what are you smoking?

[Mats Alritzson]

I would like to vote "8" but I realize my Aikido is more like a "7". :triangle:

[Yann Golanski]

Let {} be the empty set. Define 0 to be the empty set. Let {{}} be the set that contains only the empty set. Define this set to be 1...etc... That's the first steps to re-built mathematics from the ground up.

[david evans]

This is easily the oddest poll question I've seen yet on aikiweb! I voted for 3, because we've got the nage, uke, and whatever is going on between them (technique, teaching, etc). Also there's the square-circle-triangle thing, and the fact that "aikido" is made up of 3 kanji. Then I could spout off a lot of quasi-trinitarian stuff about mind, body, and spirit. So yes, 3 is my vote!

I've always been fond of three.

David.

[david evans]

At the risk of thread hijacking, I Must point out that 42 is Not the "meaning of life". It is simply the Answer to the Great Question about Life, the Universe, and Everything.

Good point. Now we just have to work out the question.

David.

[Ed Stansfield]

I voted "1"

because aikido is not a circular art.

Come on, you can't just throw that one out there and leave it hanging . . . :confused:

What are you getting at when you say it isn't circular? Do you prefer to think of it as "curved"?

Best

Ed

(who also voted 1)

[laovel]

Yes!

A slashdot type of poll....love it.

(WHAT...you don't know slashdot? --> http://slashdot.org/

We did need 42 in there though.

[happysod]

I think Jun should be ashamed of himself, this poll clearly discriminates against shodo-thugs who can only choose from two options (three if they finally admit they don't do aikido) - don't let Yann's high-faluting logic fool you, if you notice, even the maths shodo-thug can only manage 0 and 1 before lapsing into brackets...

Anyway, the answer is obviously "fish"

[Yann Golanski]

Ian,

After those two numbers, you need to define addition and multiplication as well as their reciprocals.... SHEEEESH.

[Amelia Smith]

Next, Jun can post this question in binary, and we'll see what happens!

[happysod]

Well, I'll give you your need for addition, but isn't multiplication just a tad unnecessary (could have sworn it was recursive addition) and shame on you Yann, you implicitly accepted Jun's base when you could have claimed the geekhood of binary... (damn, Amelia got there first)

and I still don't see any numbers... (leaves now before he gets the venn diagrams out of stock)

[MaryKaye]

One of my favorite sayings is "Oh no...two hands, two feet....what to do?" So I voted for "four".

Mary Kaye

[Berney Fulcher]

Great poll! I voted 4 because sensei says I've developed this bad habit of sticking my butt out :p

[kironin]

Have you practiced Aikido?

If you have you either haven't understood you Sensei or you should change your Sensei. Aikido IS a circular art. Even when looking at the older forms, the harder styles, it is still circular, even if it is more direct and entering.

So what are you smoking?


Interesting, are you really that closed minded ?

or is this lack of manners by you and Lucy just a reflection of your teachers ?

:rolleyes:

[kironin]

Come on, you can't just throw that one out there and leave it hanging . . . :confused:

What are you getting at when you say it isn't circular? Do you prefer to think of it as "curved"?
Best
Ed
(who also voted 1)

Hi Ed,

The original question by Jun was asking what your aikido most resembles. To me personally, I am thinking in lines therefore "1". My center line mostly. Or the line of irimi. Any motion can be broken down into a combination of linear vectors. IMO, the circularity that an observer may see in the interaction between nage and uke is more an illusion than anything else. They see a circle when in reality nage's center of gravity (and nage's mental image) is moving straight IN while their hands are moving straight up. Vertical and horizontal motions are combined with the good timing to toss uke. I first came to this realization some years ago in a seminar with one of Tohei Sensei's top students who had trained for over 15 years in Japan. He had just back to the States and a lot of his first hand knowledge about how Tohei Sensei thought about aikido really got me thinking along this direction. The stories and the instruction just got me to thinking differently and I certainly don't think this is original with me by a long shot. I have continued exploring this idea particularly since my experience training with the sword iaido makes it feel to be a very sensible approach to making my movements efficient.

even tenkan is a quick pivot a linear step, and your mental image is not of rotating 180 degrees but instantaneously switching your view opposite of what it was.

when nage tries to move in circles he makes mush and needs totally cooperative ukes to sustain the illusion of effective waza.

that's just my opinion. :p

but it's held up in my experience of teaching and training.

best,
Craig

[Keith R Lee]

Hi Ed,

even tenkan is a quick pivot a linear step, and your mental image is not of rotating 180 degrees but instantaneously switching your view opposite of what it was.

I'd defintely agree with that statement from a Yoshinkan point of view. For us, it's a 180 degree pivot, followed by a body shift.

Interesting ideas in the rest of your post.

[giriasis]

Have to ask this...how is it that so many people don't "get" this question?

It's easy really, it's just seems so arbitrary. Also, I have never been a numbers person as they have always been way to abstract for me. I do much better with words, hence my choice of becoming an attorney instead of a physician. ;)

So, I picked an arbitrary number -- 7.

Let's see if I can add "meaning" to. "7" looks like an upside down :triangle: And it represents our stance in aikido. Since I usually start from hanmi and end in hanmi then "7" it is.

...yeah, that's it. ;)

[Michael O'Brien]

Hi Ed,

The original question by Jun was asking what your aikido most resembles. To me personally, I am thinking in lines therefore "1". My center line mostly. Or the line of irimi. Any motion can be broken down into a combination of linear vectors. IMO, the circularity that an observer may see in the interaction between nage and uke is more an illusion than anything else. They see a circle when in reality nage's center of gravity (and nage's mental image) is moving straight IN while their hands are moving straight up. Vertical and horizontal motions are combined with the good timing to toss uke. I first came to this realization some years ago in a seminar with one of Tohei Sensei's top students who had trained for over 15 years in Japan. He had just back to the States and a lot of his first hand knowledge about how Tohei Sensei thought about aikido really got me thinking along this direction. The stories and the instruction just got me to thinking differently and I certainly don't think this is original with me by a long shot. I have continued exploring this idea particularly since my experience training with the sword iaido makes it feel to be a very sensible approach to making my movements efficient.

even tenkan is a quick pivot a linear step, and your mental image is not of rotating 180 degrees but instantaneously switching your view opposite of what it was.

when nage tries to move in circles he makes mush and needs totally cooperative ukes to sustain the illusion of effective waza.

that's just my opinion. :p

but it's held up in my experience of teaching and training.

best,
Craig
Interesting comments at a very interesting time; We just had a weekend seminar with Ikeda Sensei here in Nashville. One of the things he talked about that stuck with me was that in teaching Aikido we do start with large flowing circular movements to learn how to properly move from our center, and maintain our center as we move. He then went on to say that this isn't very effective and not practical at all. Our goal is to constantly be refinining our technique, constantly making it smaller while learning to still stay connected.

Listening to what was said, watching and feeling his technique over the course of those 4 classes I can definitely see where Craig was coming from.

I still think the large flowing circles have their place, and know that I still have a use for them in my technique right now; However, hopefully as the years go by those circles will continue to get smaller until they resemble a much straighter line as well.

[siwilson]

Remember, a straight line is just the edge of a cirle with infinite radius!!!!!!

[Ed Stansfield]

IMO, the circularity that an observer may see in the interaction between nage and uke is more an illusion than anything else. They see a circle when in reality nage's center of gravity (and nage's mental image) is moving straight IN while their hands are moving straight up. Vertical and horizontal motions are combined with the good timing to toss uke.
Thanks for your reply.

At first, I was just going to say "but what about, say, katate kosa tori kokyunage" but I think from your point of view that's probably a classic example of a move that looks circular but is actually straight. Then I started thinking about ki excercises and I suppose that for a supposedly circular art, there are a lot of "forward and backward" excercises.

But no circles? No part of a circle in ikkyo? or kotegaishi?

Still, you've given me lots to think about, particularly about my conceptions of particular techniques and movements.

it's held up in my experience of teaching and training

No walking round in circles for you then? ;)

Thanks again.

Best,

Ed

[Hanna B]

My aikido association to the number 8 is "eight directions". (I hav not voted, though.)

[Lan Powers]

My point of view favored the "birds eye" approach mentioned above. I voted for 9 since I have pictured the entry into irimi-nage with the full-circle being in a similar pattern.(Seen from above)
Could be 6 tho.......damn I am SOOOOO right handed. :)

I am intrigued by the *direction* of the thread -Pun intended, going into the linear fashion it has.
Lots of good points here. Refined motion is "usually" smaller, I just wish I had the fine motor skills to be in control to that point.
Still swooping about, you know. :rolleyes:
Lan

[deepsoup]

Next, Jun can post this question in binary, and we'll see what happens!
There are 10 kinds of people here, those who understand binary and those who dont!

[kironin]

But no circles? No part of a circle in ikkyo? or kotegaishi?


of course this may or may not make sense depending on how you practice, but ikkyo is one of the best examples of what people think is circular really is not for nage! and trying to make it circular creates a lot of problems.

ikkyo - is IMNSHO - simply shomenuchi suburi (more accurately kirioroshi). As an example - Irimi version of katatekosadori -
raise your sword with a feeling of extending to infinity - step forward - then cut down. Tenkan version- raise your sword - step forward - pivot - then cut down. Any other motion in the techniques is secondary to this main idea. Understanding the nuances and because there is a difference between simple and easy is what keeps you coming back to practice. Holding to this idea up-down combined in with moving forward in motion is also a challenge.
Done right this way though makes it pretty much unstoppable.
And you can spring off in a multitude of different ways just from this simple idea.

Kotegaeshi was renamed by Koichi Tohei Sensei as koteoroshi not because he changed what he was doing but because he decided it was a more apt description of what he was doing. The name reinforces the idea that this technique is a downward motion not a twisting motion.


Still, you've given me lots to think about, particularly about my conceptions of particular techniques and movements.


hey great, I hope it opens some doors for you in your training.
if it does, come back and teach me something.


No walking round in circles for you then? ;)
Thanks again.
Best,
Ed

Always important to distinquish exercies from your Aikido!

Plenty of exercises with circles in them so sure I may have students walk around in circles in various exercises to get a particular point across like pivoting forward rather than retreating. But when it comes to where I eventually want them to go with it, it is not to "do" or "make" circles. That's the danger of exercises, sometimes you unintentionally teach something you didn't want to.

best,
Craig

[kironin]

Listening to what was said, watching and feeling his technique over the course of those 4 classes I can definitely see where Craig was coming from.


and having had the good fortune to have Ikeda Sensei as a seminar practice partner , I can definitely believe it !

best,
Craig

[siwilson]

There are 10 kinds of people here, those who understand binary and those who dont!

LOL!

Oops! I just identified that I belong to 00000001 of those 00000010 groups!

Byte me!

:D

[siwilson]

Craig,

By your definition Aikido is not linear - it is vectored!

A curve is vectored!

[kironin]

Craig,

By your definition Aikido is not linear - it is vectored!

A curve is vectored!


well I would quibble with your sloppy use of the term Aikido.

any motion can be decomposed into three orthogonal vectors.

add to that, nage and uke is a system of two multijointed bodies in motion.

the question might be, while the over all motion of this complex system might appear to be curved, is it more productive for nage to be thinking about that effect or to be focused on learning to at the right time to drop or raise an arm or step forward or backward in a particular direction, or move a joint ?

[siwilson]

well I would quibble with your sloppy use of the term Aikido.

Sloppy? :) OK!?

any motion can be decomposed into three orthogonal vectors.

Four actually, but go on.

add to that, nage and uke is a system of two multijointed bodies in motion.

U-huh!

the question might be, while the over all motion of this complex system might appear to be curved, is it more productive for nage to be thinking about that effect or to be focused on learning to at the right time to drop or raise an arm or step forward or backward in a particular direction, or move a joint ?

No the over all motion is curved. Have you ever heard of over analysing? And I am an Engineer that has worked in Reverse Engineering and Research, and have been guilty of over analysing many times, so I talk from experience. Sometimes you have to look at what things are, not what makes them up, as sometimes the detail is wrong and confusing and contradicts the facts!

Example: I fly from London to New York, then I fly back again. What is my mean velocity?

Answer: Zero!

See the answer to that level of detail tells you nothing.

:freaky:

[billybob]

I voted three, assuming the most conventional interpretation that 1-10 represents skill level, 1 being the least, even though 10 was not a choice. I express limited skill.

I hope some day to vote zero - zero expresses the state of a perfectly balanced universe. If you viewed a film of my multiple opponent portion from my recent nikyu test you might say that my vote of "3" was over generous!

dave

[ze do telhado]

8...happo giri.... katate hachi no ji gaeshi...everybody thinking about numbers and not about aikido

[Lucy Smith]

or is this lack of manners by you and Lucy just a reflection of your teachers ?

:rolleyes:

Hold it here Mr.. A reflection of my teacher? You mean my teacher lacks manners? You mean I lack manners? In case you are not informed, to ask "what are you smoking?" is actually a joke, meaning something like "are you crazy?". You wouldn't say a person who asks you "are you crazy?" lacks manners, would you?
I've been reading all you wrote after that, and I have come to the conclusion that you are the one who lacks manners, Mr Hocker. I will, or course, never again try to make a joke with you, for it seems you are defensive and not willing to have a laugh.
As to what Si Wilson wrote, I agree completely.

Regards, blah blah mannered stuff,
Miss. Lucy Smith.

[Pauliina Lievonen]

You wouldn't say a person who asks you "are you crazy?" lacks manners, would you?
Lucy, for what it's worth, I would. Keep in mind that you are talking with people from all over the world, and not everybody has the same customs that you and your friends might have. :)

I think you were just honestly surprised by Craig's statement about aikido being linear, but the way you expressed it came across as rather...aggressive? :)

kvaak
Pauliina

[siwilson]

Lucy, for what it's worth, I would. Keep in mind that you are talking with people from all over the world, and not everybody has the same customs that you and your friends might have. :)

I think you were just honestly surprised by Craig's statement about aikido being linear, but the way you expressed it came across as rather...aggressive? :)

kvaak
Pauliina

What is the problem? Craig, Lucy and I are all from Western Culture - North America, South America and Europe. Not that much difference!

Hey, everyone need to lighten up!

:freaky:

[billybob]

The gentlemen made a statement that runs contrary to conventional wisdom - "Aikido is not a circular art." People expressed wonderment and surprise, and asked for clarification in a perhaps 'prodding' manner. Seems like training to me.

Years and years ago I was training with a woman who kept punching me! I thought she was being a jerk. I raised my hand to warn her to stop. A Very high ranking instructor escorted me off the mat, rather brusquely I might add. It turns out that punching in the ribs is aiki training for a poor tenkan, not a passive aggressive game as I perceived. Thank goodness the instructor was merely brusque with my unenlightened self, as the woman was his wife!

My favorite philosopher had the following to say about lines and circles and such:

William James (1906)SOME YEARS AGO, being with a camping party in the mountains, I returned from a solitary ramble to find every one engaged in a ferocious metaphysical dispute. The corpus of the dispute was a squirrel -- a live squirrel supposed to be clinging to one side of a tree-trunk; while over against the tree's opposite side a human being was imagined to stand. This human witness tries to get sight of the squirrel by moving rapidly round the tree, but no matter how fast he goes, the squirrel moves as fast in the opposite direction, and always keeps the tree between himself and the man, so that never a glimpse of him is caught. The resultant metaphysical problem now is this: Does the man go round the squirrel or not? He goes round the tree, sure enough, and the squirrel is on the tree; but does he go round the squirrel? In the unlimited leisure of the wilderness, discussion had been worn threadbare. Every one had taken sides, and was obstinate; and the numbers on both sides were even. Each side, when I appeared therefore appealed to me to make it a majority. Mindful of the scholastic adage that whenever you meet a contradiction you must make a distinction, I immediately sought and found one, as follows: "Which party is right," I said, "depends on what you practically mean by ‘going round' the squirrel. If you mean passing from the north of him to the east, then to the south, then to the west, and then to the north of him again, obviously the man does go round him, for he occupies these successive positions. But if on the contrary you mean being first in front of him, then on the right of him, then behind him, then on his left, and finally in front again, it is quite as obvious that the man fails to go round him, for by the compensating movements the squirrel makes, he keeps his belly turned towards the man all the time, and his back turned away. Make the distinction, and there is no occasion for any farther dispute. You are both right and both wrong according as you conceive the verb ‘to go round' in one practical fashion or the other."

I hope I'm not fanning the fire; just discussing aikido, life, and my admittedly bizarre take on the latter.

dave

[Mark Freeman]

I hope I'm not fanning the fire; just discussing aikido, life, and my admittedly bizarre take on the latter.


Nothing wrong with a bizarre take on life David ;)

My first aikido teacher once said "if there is no paradox there is no truth"
He may or may not be right :D

regards,
Mark

[kironin]

What is the problem? Craig, Lucy and I are all from Western Culture - North America, South America and Europe. Not that much difference!

Hey, everyone need to lighten up!

:freaky:


In Texas,
oh beloved Bush Country,
them is shooting words !

yeeha!

[kironin]

to ask "what are you smoking?" is actually a joke, meaning something like "are you crazy?".


ok, think about it for a moment

in the real world,
go up to the head teacher of another school who has just stated some comments from their experience of aikido in a public forum and say that exact phrase to their face.
then say... "oh, I was just joking!"

[kironin]

Four actually, but go on.


again with the sloppy thinking! :-)


No the over all motion is curved. Have you ever heard of over analysing? And I am an Engineer that has worked in Reverse Engineering and Research, and have been guilty of over analysing many times, so I talk from experience. Sometimes you have to look at what things are, not what makes them up, as sometimes the detail is wrong and confusing and contradicts the facts!


And I am a scientist, and overanalyzing is our business!
in the real world, it's all in the details.

Your last sentence makes no sense.
if nage does not have a clear idea what details are important about the motions they make, it doesn't matter a damn about
what the observer sees in the overall motion.


Example: I fly from London to New York, then I fly back again. What is my mean velocity?
Answer: Zero!
See the answer to that level of detail tells you nothing.


Exactly, you have proved my point!

:D

[Lucy Smith]

What point exactly?

Yours Sincerely,
Miss. Lucy Smith.