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Kestrel
07-21-2001, 09:33 PM
I've been practicing Aikido for about a year now. This past semester I also took a karate class (Tang Su Do to be precise).

While practicing karate and sparring there was one recurring question on my mind. While my experience says that an aikidoka could fairly easily take on a karate practicioner of the same (relative I know!) skill level given one thing. That thing being that most aikido techniques I am familiar with involve making a connection with your opponent and then using that connection to take her/his center.
The techniques we were taught in that class all emphasized keeping your distance from your opponent. With kicks an ever-present thread how would an aikidoka be able to move in and avoid being pummeled by his/her opponent while seeking the connection necessary to take the opponents center?

To give due credit to the teacher tradition karate techniques were not the only thing taught. He also introduced a beginning sample of judo techniques useful in escaping common attacks that you might expect to see on the street. But there wasn't any attempt to integrate the two styles.

My (rather lengthy I know) question is what if anything people know about using aikido against a harder striking style and/or about integrating a striking style (perhaps as atemi?) into aikido.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

Tim

Brian Crowley
07-22-2001, 01:13 PM
Tim,

Not sure I agree with your assessment that an Aikidoist could easily beat a Karteka on the same skill level. Not sure it's important either. My advice for getting more effect from your Aikido (& a couple other things you may want to consider) is below:

I think it would be very helpful for you to read "Dueling With O-Sensei" by Ellis Amdur (I think you have to get it from his web site). Specifically, chapter 5 - Atemi: Striking to the heart of the matter addresses some of your current questions. I will try to provide a brief (but incomplete) summary below. I suggest that you pick up the book.

O-Sensei is quoted as saying that 90% of Aikido is atemi & yet it is rarely taught that way. Mr. Amdur suggests that in order for an Aikido technique to be effective atemi must be possible at any point during the application of a technique - from first contact until contact is broken. The continual possibility of atemi "demands the attention" of your partner & reduces his ability to stop or counter the technique.

Amdur warns against simply trying to add techniques from other martial arts to your aikido. Often the styles/philosophies are too incompatible for the average person to synthesize. He provides some training suggestions to help develop your ability to apply atemi & mentions a couple teachers that he thinks have succeeded in integrating atemi in Aikido. His comments on the sensitivity necessary to achieve this are very insightful !

I think that chapter will probably improve your ability to use Aikido effectively, however I think you need to ask yourself why you are studying Aikido. Is one reason for self-defense ? If it is, then you may want to consider cross-training in something that has a strong self-defense focus. I would strongly suggest Ki Chuan Do, created by John Perkins. It is an internal martial art with a self-defense orientation (it incorporates close-combat, tai-chi & Native-American techniques). His book, Attack Proof, is excellent - especially good if you can't find a local class or seminar. Check out his web site for more details. The book is also available at amazon & other book sellers.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Brian

cguzik
07-22-2001, 01:42 PM
Timothy,

You have a great opportunity to find the answer to your question, because of where you train. Try to make every class whenever Saotome Sensei is teaching; it may not be obvious what he is doing but over time it will become more apparent. To establish connection with your partner, you have to irimi, which is not easy if their attack is strong. I certainly cannot tell you how to do it, but Saotome Sensei emphasizes this aspect a lot. If you watch how he moves, you will see that there is a way to enter deeply and safely and take your partner's center, even if your partner knows how to kick and punch very well.

Regards,

Chris Guzik

Brian H
07-22-2001, 02:52 PM
At my dojo we occasionally practice kick defenses. It’s not that defending against a kick is difficult and to be avoided, it’s not. The main problem is the ukemi is very difficult and fast. The attacker only has one foot planted (even sweeps/reaps require you to unweight the attacking foot) and if Nage takes your balance, it’s over pretty quickly and dramatically. At one of our randori classes a senior black belt was being attacked by a group of other black belts (each had a designated technique as a safety precaution) and one of the attackers was assigned "front kick.” That attacker spent more time down than all of the rest of the attacker combined. It simply took less time and effort to unbalance and throw him than the attackers who were on two feet. The
suggestion that one must enter deeply to defend against a kick is not necessarily true. You have to enter into uke space, but in most kicks uke must extend himself to kick, so modest movement on Nage part can yield a "deep" irimi.

dainippon99
07-22-2001, 04:29 PM
hey all

atemi in aikido are thought of in the wrong way, i think. most people think its some sort of punch or kick to a weak spot, which isnt incorrect,just narrow. Atemi can be performed in many ways with all parts of the body. The main part of utilizing atemi is to find the times when it is useful and just ponder on it endlessly. Ma ai is definately a player in the equation as well.

Chris- nice to see another local boy around here. drop me an email, maybe we can toss around some discussion!

phatygruv@aol.com

cbrf4zr2
07-22-2001, 08:01 PM
If there were a bet to be made I would simply put my money on whoever has the fastest reflexes. Who ever gains the early (and possibly only) advantage will most likely "win." Someone does not necessarily need to have been practicing any striking art for a long time to have "quick hands" if they can throw a few quick punches in and dance around...it's tough.

I've noticed with aikido we normally practice against deliberate attacks. (at least I have so far) Well...news for all of us out there who haven't run into sparring with someone from another art...be prepared to get hit a few times before you can start a technique.

dainippon99
07-23-2001, 02:13 AM
i agree with edward, some people have to realize that in giving atemi, you have to be prepared to take atemi. And whoever gets the "jump" does not always win. its who can control the situation, or at least gain control of the situation using atemi or any other type of technique

Kestrel
07-23-2001, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Brian Crowley
Tim,

Not sure I agree with your assessment that an Aikidoist could easily beat a Karteka on the same skill level. Not sure it's important either. My advice for getting more effect from your Aikido (& a couple other things you may want to consider) is below:


Well my opinion was based on several months of class with one particular instructor. Very large class compared to your average MA class so that may have had something to do with it. While there was (naturally) a lot of emphasis on striking and blocking there was very little emphasis on escaping from holds, learning to take falls etc.

The instructor DID do some basic judo stuff with escapes from about 8 basic grab attacks but that was about it.

The other thing is that while I think the aikidoka would have an advantage once inside that the karateka would have an advantage as long as he/she could keep the aikidoka from making a connection with him.

Opinion only..I haven't been able to dragoon a striker into experimenting with me :)
I need to talk to the other person in my dojo who took the same class. She might be able to shed some light on the subject.

I think it would be very helpful for you to read "Dueling With O-Sensei" by Ellis Amdur (I think you have to get it from his web site). Specifically, chapter 5 - Atemi: Striking to the heart of the matter addresses some of your current questions. I will try to provide a brief (but incomplete) summary below. I suggest that you pick up the book.


Thanks for the suggestion!
[QUOTE]
O-Sensei is quoted as saying that 90% of Aikido is atemi & yet it is rarely taught that way. Mr. Amdur suggests that in order for an Aikido technique to be effective atemi must be possible at any point during the application of a technique - from first contact until contact is broken. The continual possibility of atemi "demands the attention" of your partner & reduces his ability to stop or counter the technique.


I am aware of the "hidden" atemi present in many of the techniques and the necessity for giving uke a reason to stay connected. I'm unsure about how to apply those atemi without getting relatively close to uke though.

[QUOTE]
Amdur warns against simply trying to add techniques from other martial arts to your aikido. Often the styles/philosophies are too incompatible for the average person to synthesize. He provides some training suggestions to help develop your ability to apply atemi & mentions a couple teachers that he thinks have succeeded in integrating atemi in Aikido. His comments on the sensitivity necessary to achieve this are very insightful !

[QUOTE]
Again thank you :) The reason I posted this was that I also felt that simply adding karate striking techniques to Aikido would be insufficient. It could be very confusing to an opponent to switch from one to the other though :)

[QUOTE]
I think that chapter will probably improve your ability to use Aikido effectively, however I think you need to ask yourself why you are studying Aikido. Is one reason for self-defense ? If it is, then you may want to consider cross-training in something that has a strong self-defense focus. I would strongly suggest Ki Chuan Do, created by John Perkins. It is an internal martial art with a self-defense orientation (it incorporates close-combat, tai-chi & Native-American techniques). His book, Attack Proof, is excellent - especially good if you can't find a local class or seminar. Check out his web site for more details. The book is also available at amazon & other book sellers.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Brian

Thank you again for your comments Brian. Appreciation of aikido's philosophy, a desire to excercise better, and wanting to be able to use aikido for self defense were all reasons that I started. I recognized that aikido has a very slow learning curve and that it would be quite a while before it could be something really effective for me. Thats why I tried the karate class. It gave me some interesting techniques and I'd like to be able to integrate both into a larger understanding.

Hope I got this whole quote/nonquote thing right....

Kestrel
07-23-2001, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by cbrf4zr2
If there were a bet to be made I would simply put my money on whoever has the fastest reflexes. Who ever gains the early (and possibly only) advantage will most likely "win." Someone does not necessarily need to have been practicing any striking art for a long time to have "quick hands" if they can throw a few quick punches in and dance around...it's tough.

I've noticed with aikido we normally practice against deliberate attacks. (at least I have so far) Well...news for all of us out there who haven't run into sparring with someone from another art...be prepared to get hit a few times before you can start a technique.

Yeah I noticed something similar. One of the things I was trying to figure out was how to get inside or make connection with my opponent/partner quickly enough to avoid being totally pummeled.

I'm not adverse to taking a hit or two when sparring but I'm allergic to being whacked. I get these black and blue spots where people hit me. ;) Especially given that a lot of the striking schools hit VERY hard.

Kestrel
07-23-2001, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by cguzik
Timothy,

You have a great opportunity to find the answer to your question, because of where you train. Try to make every class whenever Saotome Sensei is teaching; it may not be obvious what he is doing but over time it will become more apparent. To establish connection with your partner, you have to irimi, which is not easy if their attack is strong. I certainly cannot tell you how to do it, but Saotome Sensei emphasizes this aspect a lot. If you watch how he moves, you will see that there is a way to enter deeply and safely and take your partner's center, even if your partner knows how to kick and punch very well.

Regards,

Chris Guzik

I haven't been lucky enough to see Saotome Sensi train yet. I missed the last time he was visiting the dojo. Hopefully next time I'll be able to make it.

Though the thought of being uke for Saotome Sensei is rather intimidating. Lucky for me I'm still all whites so I probably wouldn't get picked :)

[Censored]
07-24-2001, 05:45 PM
The other thing is that while I think the aikidoka [vs. karateka] would have an advantage once inside ...

What do you have in mind?

The reason I posted this was that I also felt that simply adding karate striking techniques to Aikido would be insufficient. It could be very confusing to an opponent to switch from one to the other though

I guarantee that no opponent worth mentioning will give a damn what "style" you are using. Even karate techniques are better then nothing. ;)

Jim23
07-24-2001, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by cbrf4zr2

I've noticed with aikido we normally practice against deliberate attacks. (at least I have so far) Well...news for all of us out there who haven't run into sparring with someone from another art...be prepared to get hit a few times before you can start a technique.
I agree.

I think that many aikidoists (and aikidoka) would be in for a shock if they were to spar with a good karateka - not just someone who can kick and punch. I mean someone who you can't block, who is in complete control and almost impossible to redirect.

I would be an enlightening experience, to say the least.

Jim23

Sam
07-25-2001, 04:26 AM
It is true that facing a karateka can be extremely worrying.
I am lucky enough to have a brother of the same build as myself whom is at the same level of progression in karate as I am in aikido.
So when we practise together I can make some comparisons between what we have learnt.
In general I would say that we are pretty evenly matched. I find that even though I have not learnt traditional style atemi, they seem to happen anyway as they are to a certain level instinctive.
One of the fantastic things about aikido is that you only have to be successful once. By this I mean that a karateka (usually) has to deliver more that one strike to end the bout. But if I am successful once with shihonage, the bout ends in a submission.

The biggest problem is combination attacks which are hard becuase if you want to stop one, you have to be quick an catch the first attack and create balance-break before the second, or you have to keep out the way of several attacks.

Kestrel
07-25-2001, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Sam
It is true that facing a karateka can be extremely worrying.
I am lucky enough to have a brother of the same build as myself whom is at the same level of progression in karate as I am in aikido.
So when we practise together I can make some comparisons between what we have learnt.
In general I would say that we are pretty evenly matched. I find that even though I have not learnt traditional style atemi, they seem to happen anyway as they are to a certain level instinctive.
One of the fantastic things about aikido is that you only have to be successful once. By this I mean that a karateka (usually) has to deliver more that one strike to end the bout. But if I am successful once with shihonage, the bout ends in a submission.

The biggest problem is combination attacks which are hard becuase if you want to stop one, you have to be quick an catch the first attack and create balance-break before the second, or you have to keep out the way of several attacks.

Thanks for your reply. The fact that you only need to get in one good technique to end the confrontation was one of the reasons I made my (evidently ill-advised *grins*) comment about thinking that an aikidoka could match up well against a karateka of the same skill level.

The thing that appeared the most worrysome to me was the speed of karate techniques. How do you deal with the quick punches and kicks? I know that when I sparred in Tang Su DO there were usually several distractor techniques before I attempted to score with a punch or kick.

By the same token I was most often scored on when there were a succession of techniques to draw my guard away from the target area.

nikonl
07-25-2001, 09:05 AM
well...in that case,since karate is so effective against aikido,then why learn aikido?might as well juz learn karate right?

Jim23
07-25-2001, 09:40 AM
Or Hapkido. :D

If aikidoists were better at atemi and were able to trade a strike or two (while evading/redirecting/blending/blocking) before the finishing aikido technique, then they could be very effective.

And yes, I know that atemi is part of aikido, but somehow I keep forgetting it. ;) Remember, someone trained in karate, etc., (if they're good) will block and (while) attack(ing), so, sometimes the silly distracting strike will invite another directed back at you.

I find it funny when people don't question their ability or skills. Always assume that the other person could be better than you are or that they won't feel any pain (it's probably one of the few times that assumptions are good). ;)

Jim23

dainippon99
07-25-2001, 07:00 PM
its all in the ma ai, guys.
and the zanshin.

if you just stay outside the karateka's range, eventually he will overextend himself, so that will be your chance. in theory, this is the way to go about things. i guess it really comes down to whether the aikidoka is willing to take a beating to get close to the karateka, because ideally, you want to be right in next to them, all personal like.

Juan Alberto
07-25-2001, 07:51 PM
If I remember correctly once a kick or punch is initiated it's direction can NOT be changed, therefore if your opponent initiates a kick to your mid-section or whatever other area you can irimi or tenkan to get out of the line of attack and defend against said attack or counter (if you prefer) An opponent can only kick or punch at one time possibly kick & punch simultaneously but giving Nage an even wider opening. For some reason in these discussions most people seem to think that AIKIDOKA (Aikidoists) are weak and slow. Come on people HAVE confidence in AIKIDO.

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

Jim23
07-25-2001, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Juan Alberto
If I remember correctly once a kick or punch is initiated it's direction can NOT be changed
Oh, really?
For some reason in these discussions most people seem to think that AIKIDOKA (Aikidoists) are weak and slow.
Many are.

Jim23

Juan Alberto
07-25-2001, 08:37 PM
Why are you so synical towards AIKIDO is it that you don't know how it works? I know for a fact that my AIKIDo works...does yours? If you don't believe me try punching (with commitment) at a focused point and have someone at anytime once you initiated the punch tell you to change its direction. I'll bet you can't.

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

Jim23
07-25-2001, 08:58 PM
Right. How many people would put all of their energy into a committed "all out" punch? Maybe a drunk swinging wildly.

Too many people are just fooling themselves regarding their aikido. When I first started, I had (fairly) senior people say "no, really hold tight and push", etc. Then they couldn't complete their technique.

The same thing also happens in karate and other MAs too.

I've seen people punch, turn on a dime and deliver a spinning kick right on the mark. Some even set you up with a fake strike (not only done by aikidoists). You are funny though.

Jim23

Juan Alberto
07-25-2001, 09:06 PM
I sure am but most of all I am an accomplished Aikidoka. You seem to just knock Aikido yet you spend your time on na Aikido discussion group. I saw your "PROFILE" nothing there that seems to be the status quo for people who like to knock others when they really have nothing to say... best of luck with what ever MA you study. I know my AIKIDO works sorry to hear yours doesn't.

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

Jim23
07-25-2001, 09:26 PM
I find it funny (sad actually) that aikidokists hate when someone dares to be critical of an aspect of aikido or low standards. We are critical in most other areas in life, but not here!

I train in aikido, but am critical always. The day I become overconfident, I'll quit.

Aikido is great. Most of it. Not all. I've come across some very stupid logic from some pretty senior people.

Jim23

PeterR
07-25-2001, 11:23 PM
I am in total agreement with Jim on this one. Falling into self delusion brought about by lack of self critique is a serious problem. We are after all a Budo not a cult.

As Budoka we are learning to deal with agression not just by other Aikidoka. The question on how we can deal with a person who emphasizes this in their training is a valid one and finding the holes in our own training is part of the process.

Let's face it - the average Aikidoka does not train for violent confrontation, we have compliant Uke, we hide behind a false sense of moral superiority, and talk/write way more than we should.

On the other hand I know of several Aikidoka who train and compete in full contact PK sports and I have done a little bit myself. These people tend to agree with me when I say I will put up a well trained Aikidoka against a Karateka any day. The trick is to deal with the opponent based on your strengths not his. Most who train in Karate have their own set of limitations.


Originally posted by Jim23
I find it funny (sad actually) that aikidokists hate when someone dares to be critical of an aspect of aikido or low standards. We are critical in most other areas in life, but not here!

I train in aikido, but am critical always. The day I become overconfident, I'll quit.

Aikido is great. Most of it. Not all. I've come across some very stupid logic from some pretty senior people.

Jim23

arvin m.
07-26-2001, 08:10 AM
firstly i believe that while its good to be confident in your aikido, i sensed a whiff of too much of it in some posts. Perhaps the truest test of whether a technique works or not would be its acutal application in a real fight? Until one gets into one, god forbid that he should, and successfully extricates himself can one really claim that his technique works. One's AIKIDO would work if he hadnt even fought at all unless there was no other way out...just my two cents worth

Many of us tend to forget atemi, karateka live and breathe such body blows. Hence, as suggested ma ai is of quintessence. Perhaps also some of the basic irmi and tenkan...just keep as relaxed as u possibly can and allow for him to commit to the attack, after all if he doesnt its a win win situation since no one gets hurt...if a karateka really knew his stuff, chances are he wouldnt be flaunting it (ok this is really naive right?)

irimi and tenkan, thats the mantra folks..let him come with the tsukis and just tenkan out of the way...or sidestep...or enter on yer own...easier said than done i guess but hey, thinking abt it is a start no? For me, i play defense...wait for him to attack then counter

im only a blue belt so this is the fairy tale world i live in as always comments and criticisms are most welcome...i might ask my judo friends to see if i can cross train with them in school..might be interesting? Any ideas on how to handle judoka perhaps?

Juan Alberto
07-26-2001, 08:12 AM
I believe that Jim23 says it best "Remember, all generalizations are false" Aikido has the technique to deal with all sorts of attacks & attackers. It is up to the Nage to know what techniques to use in defense. I am not closed minded regarding Aikido I have proven to myself that it works, however it is up to the individual to have more than just a basic working knowledge of the techniques. If you feel that Aikido isn't truly effective why do you guys waste your time training in an Art that is ineffective?

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

REK
07-26-2001, 08:38 AM
Having practiced two forms of karate into yudansha ranking and judo about halfway to shodan, I found aikido. I also discovered that aikdido was the ultimate martial art--for me.

My personal experiences at work have pitted my aikido against the most non-compliant of ukes, severly mentally ill felons. Sure, knowing how to talk, walk and look are a huge asset in that setting. But sometimes, especially if an individual is not in his right mind, none of that helps. That leaves the physical aspect. I have yet to be disappointed. As I said in a previous post, my karate training was valuable, but as a state employee, I do not have the luxury of striking those who would do me harm, even when they have had martial arts training.

As far as other martial arts, it doesn't matter. If your training is thorough and rigorous, your personal dedication to your own improvement (mentally, physically, all of those) is high, then you have nothing to fear. The specific art is immaterial. We all know aikidoka who you would not try to kick on a bet. We also know aikidoka who couldn't catch a basketball tossed to them. Is that aikido's fault? I don't think so. Practice, practice, practice. Or answer Juan's question honestly.


Rob

Juan Alberto
07-26-2001, 08:43 AM
We aren't talking about beginners or advanced practitioners but the arts themselves. I truley believe that Aikido has the techniques that are able to defend against any attack (except bullets, or projectiles)definately not like in the movies where the MAist never gets touched by one single blow. If you have ever watched a boxing match I would tend to believe that at one time or another you have said to yourself "Why didn't he just hit him with the other hand after missing the stike with the first hand" its called body mechanics when you strike with commitment your body can not change it's initial direction until the momentum has diminished sufficiently. Thats why the jab in boxing is so effective it is mostly a distracting stike. Hence thats why in boxing they are not allowed to GRAB. If you followed that jab back by grabbing it you could do a variety of techniques (shihonage, iriminage...)As for Karate I too have seen guys follow thruogh with a variety of combinations but with the opponent fighting HIS fight (strikes & kicks only)It is so much easier to defend against an attacker that is not expecting you to come into is space while grabbing and turning and lets not forget striking back. The techniques are there I have been in street fights and my Aikido worked (not as pretty looking as in the dojo)I truly believe that if you (anyone)has such doubts about Aikido being effective I would suggest that you don't waste a single minute or penny trainning in an art you don't believe in. I just can't sit back and read posts of supposed AIKIDOKA saying it isn't effective. As for we Aikidoka practice techniques in a choriographed manner...YES we do. Remember we are supposed to be learning the techniques and to properly learn them we must choriograph the attack. In my dojo as you progress in your Aikido training we no longer say to uke "ok shomen attack with the left hand" we just start to move a little quicker. I would also dare to say that if any of your Sensei read most of the post here they would be greatly saddned.

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

"The purpose of training is to tighten up the slack, toughen the body, and polish the spirit".
"Morihei Ueshiba"

Andy
07-26-2001, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Juan Alberto
We aren't talking about beginners or advanced practitioners but the arts themselves.
No, at least you were talking about "my AIKIDo (sic)" working and stating that "I am an accomplished Aikidoka."

What is your experience in working with people from other martial arts at your own level? How many times have you sparred with someone who has

It seems like pretty much everyone here has been honest about their level of training and realizing things from where they are rather than putting the ideal aikido on a pedestal and worshipping it as the ultimate martial art.
I truley believe that Aikido has the techniques that are able to defend against any attack (except bullets, or projectiles)
Really? You practice newaza often in your aikido classes? What about quick, non-"lethal" cuts from a knife ala Kali?
Thats why the jab in boxing is so effective it is mostly a distracting stike.
How many jabs have you received to your face in your life?

The same applies to karate and other punching/kicking arts, too. Not every single attack is a so-called "commited" round-house haymaker. Things called "feints" exist, you know.
As for Karate I too have seen guys follow thruogh with a variety of combinations but with the opponent fighting HIS fight (strikes & kicks only)
You've "seen" such. How many times have you truly experienced it?
I would also dare to say that if any of your Sensei read most of the post here they would be greatly saddned.
He'd probably very much appreciate the fact that people aren't hung up on grandiose thoughts about aikido being the ultimate martial art but are rather thinking about their own practice and training.

[Censored]
07-26-2001, 12:06 PM
If I remember correctly once a kick or punch is initiated it's direction can NOT be changed

You do not remember correctly. You seem to confuse "initiated" with "irrevocably committed".

A good kick or punch can be initiated at any time, but by definition, it only becomes committed WHEN IT IS TOO LATE FOR YOU TO STOP IT.

Juan Alberto
07-26-2001, 12:35 PM
I reached brown belt level in Kempo and Shodan level in Ju-Jitsu. I have competed in traditional Karate tournoments. I have sparred with other MA of my same rank (which is Nidan)and have faired very well against them, however when I am drawn into their fight as happens regularly with boxers I usually don't fair as well. Some of you seem to be wasting your time with these posts and Aikido since you do NOT believe in the art. As for my contribution to these post I will cease to comment and let you continue to bash an art that is to my opinion beyond your comprehension (technically).

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto, Sensei

Juan Alberto
07-26-2001, 12:38 PM
To be taken seriously and weigh someones opinion I believe they should come out and complete their profiles. It's real easy to talk up a storm when you are behind a shroud.


All cards on the table and we can discuss these issues on merrit.

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto, Sensei

Jim23
07-26-2001, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Juan Alberto
We aren't talking about beginners or advanced practitioners but the arts themselves. I truley believe that Aikido has the techniques that are able to defend against any attack (except bullets, or projectiles)definately not like in the movies where the MAist never gets touched by one single blow. If you have ever watched a boxing match I would tend to believe that at one time or another you have said to yourself "Why didn't he just hit him with the other hand after missing the stike with the first hand" its called body mechanics when you strike with commitment your body can not change it's initial direction until the momentum has diminished sufficiently. Thats why the jab in boxing is so effective it is mostly a distracting stike. Hence thats why in boxing they are not allowed to GRAB. If you followed that jab back by grabbing it you could do a variety of techniques (shihonage, iriminage...)As for Karate I too have seen guys follow thruogh with a variety of combinations but with the opponent fighting HIS fight (strikes & kicks only)It is so much easier to defend against an attacker that is not expecting you to come into is space while grabbing and turning and lets not forget striking back. The techniques are there I have been in street fights and my Aikido worked (not as pretty looking as in the dojo)I truly believe that if you (anyone)has such doubts about Aikido being effective I would suggest that you don't waste a single minute or penny trainning in an art you don't believe in. I just can't sit back and read posts of supposed AIKIDOKA saying it isn't effective. As for we Aikidoka practice techniques in a choriographed manner...YES we do. Remember we are supposed to be learning the techniques and to properly learn them we must choriograph the attack. In my dojo as you progress in your Aikido training we no longer say to uke "ok shomen attack with the left hand" we just start to move a little quicker. I would also dare to say that if any of your Sensei read most of the post here they would be greatly saddned.

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

"The purpose of training is to tighten up the slack, toughen the body, and polish the spirit".
"Morihei Ueshiba"
Juan,

I'm tired of reading your posts (not because of what you say, but because you don't insert spaces between the paragraphs). :D

I think we are misunderstanding each other here. I have nothing against aikido - or you - in fact I think aikido - and probably you - is effective. I just get uncomfortable when people try to convince others here that nothing shy of a bullet can stop an aikidoist (unless you're an aikidoka like O-Sensei), especially if you are a student of abother MA (yuck). We know what aikido has to offer.

And yes, as you said, we train in a controlled environment and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that, but it does contribute greatly to why some people "talk the talk without knowing if they can walk the walk" (I'd better stop the clichés before I get carried away).

Kudos to you if you train in/with another MA or if your approach to training is a little unconventional.

Peace, okay?

Jim23

Jim23
07-26-2001, 12:57 PM
I posted before I saw your new posts.

So, you trained in karate. Good. Now we're talking.

Jim23

[Censored]
07-26-2001, 01:02 PM
My personal experiences at work have pitted my aikido against the most non-compliant of ukes, severly mentally ill felons. Sure, knowing how to talk, walk and look are a huge asset in that setting. But sometimes, especially if an individual is not in his right mind, none of that helps. That leaves the physical aspect. I have yet to be disappointed. As I said in a previous post, my karate training was valuable, but as a state employee, I do not have the luxury of striking those who would do me harm, even when they have had martial arts training.

If these people presented a real threat to your well-being, and if you did not have armed state employees backing you up, I'm sure you would grant yourself the luxury of striking.

As far as other martial arts, it doesn't matter. If your training is thorough and rigorous, your personal dedication to your own improvement (mentally, physically, all of those) is high, then you have nothing to fear.


Perhaps. I think some of us are arguing that Aikido training, as it is defined by Hombu, is generally not throrough and rigorous enough.

- Yes, they can define what Aikido is.
- No, I do not need to limit my training to their sanctioned "best practices." That is beside the point.

The specific art is immaterial.

In that case, stop going to class. Train at home by practicing the moves in "American Ninja 4".

We all know aikidoka who you would not try to kick on a bet.

I don't know any, and not because I haven't looked. Though, I believe they may exist.

We also know aikidoka who couldn't catch a basketball tossed to them. Is that aikido's fault? I don't think so. Practice, practice, practice.

Practice what, how much, and with whom? That is the subject of this discussion (as always), is it not?

[Censored]
07-26-2001, 01:19 PM
To be taken seriously and weigh someones opinion I believe they should come out and complete their profiles. It's real easy to talk up a storm when you are behind a shroud.

I have been very critical of some of my past training partners on this forum. I prefer they hear it from me personally, rather than through a message board. So, my profile is empty.

If you can't deal with my posts, just ask the moderator to kick me out. Unsportsmanlike, but it's your prerogative.

All cards on the table and we can discuss these issues on merrit.

Sorry, pal, I always keep an ace up my sleeve. :cool: The name of your teacher, or the location of your school, have no bearing on this particular discussion.

Kestrel
07-26-2001, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
I am in total agreement with Jim on this one. Falling into self delusion brought about by lack of self critique is a serious problem. We are after all a Budo not a cult.

As Budoka we are learning to deal with agression not just by other Aikidoka. The question on how we can deal with a person who emphasizes this in their training is a valid one and finding the holes in our own training is part of the process.

Let's face it - the average Aikidoka does not train for violent confrontation, we have compliant Uke, we hide behind a false sense of moral superiority, and talk/write way more than we should.

On the other hand I know of several Aikidoka who train and compete in full contact PK sports and I have done a little bit myself. These people tend to agree with me when I say I will put up a well trained Aikidoka against a Karateka any day. The trick is to deal with the opponent based on your strengths not his. Most who train in Karate have their own set of limitations.




Thanks! This thread has really taken off all of a sudden ;)

I agree with almost all of your points which is the reason I posted the original question. I'm trying to "fill in some holes" and understand things a little better. Any help is appreciated.

There seems to be some disagreement on whether I should even be asking the question though :(

What you pointed out (that Aikido IS a Budo, though a relatively non-violent one) is certainly true. All of us take different paths in our study of aikido and for me making sure that I have as many options as possible is one of those.

Tim

Kestrel
07-26-2001, 01:57 PM
I don't think anyone is bashing aikido. I think we're all just trying to learn more about aikido and perhaps supplement it with other MA's.

While I trained in Tang Su Do for a short time I much prefer aikido for several reasons. But I don't have any illusion about being able to put into action all the techniques I've trained with. I think I would be able to manage SOME because when I train in the dojo some things seem to come up almost automatically even when I'm trying for something else...but certainly not all.

If you have trained in several other MA's and are advanced in aikido as well perhaps you can help us understand WHY you feel aikido is so effective and how to use it against other MA's.

I've been told by many people that it takes a relatively advanced student in aikido to be effective "on the street" and it seems to be a generally accepted opinion almong students of other MA's as well. Almost everyone agrees that aikido can be effective (even devastating) but that it has a much longer learning curve than other arts (such as boxing or karate)

Tim

Juan Alberto
07-26-2001, 02:41 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim23
[B]
Juan,

I'm tired of reading your posts (not because of what you say, but because you don't insert spaces between the paragraphs). :D


I think we are misunderstanding each other here. I have nothing against aikido - or you - in fact I think aikido - and probably you - is effective. I just get uncomfortable when people try to convince others here that nothing shy of a bullet can stop an aikidoist (unless you're an aikidoka like O-Sensei), especially if you are a student of abother MA (yuck). We know what aikido has to offer.

I totally agree with you. I am sorry if that's how I came across
And yes, as you said, we train in a controlled environment and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that, but it does contribute greatly to why some people "talk the talk without knowing if they can walk the walk" (I'd better stop the clichés before I get carried away).

Kudos to you if you train in/with another MA or if your approach to training is a little unconventional.

Peace, okay?

Jim23


Sorry, I just get caught up in the discussion. I will try to remember to use paragrahs.

I believe that we were on the same page just didn't realize it. No, I don't mean to make anyone believe AIKIDO is IT. I do believe that most people whom practice Aikido are never taught the "how and why" the techniques work. I have been fortunate enough to study under and intructor that is a 10 degree in Ju-Jitsu and therefore he has a greater understanding of body mechanics. (how one's body reacts to strikes,blows, power and balance).

The how and where we train says alot for most practioners. That is why I am so bent on having discussions with people who are open to there MA background in their profiles. It is really easy to talk the talk and never have been in a single fight. In our dojo we call those "DOJO BOYS" it's a different thing to go up against someone hell bent on hurting you than full contact sparring.

And yes I do cross train but only because it is so readily available to me. I do think AIKIDo has everything I need. And of course on occassion we do have the seperated shoulder broken eye brow and definately the bloody lips. Our way of training in Aikido is out of the norm.

Keep the faith.....

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

P.S. Did I do better with the paragraphs?

Juan Alberto
07-26-2001, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Kestrel
I don't think anyone is bashing aikido. I think we're all just trying to learn more about aikido and perhaps supplement it with other MA's.

The more you know the better it is for you.

While I trained in Tang Su Do for a short time I much prefer aikido for several reasons. But I don't have any illusion about being able to put into action all the techniques I've trained with. I think I would be able to manage SOME because when I train in the dojo some things seem to come up almost automatically even when I'm trying for something else...but certainly not all.

It all comes from years of hard training. Don't give up

If you have trained in several other MA's and are advanced in aikido as well perhaps you can help us understand WHY you feel aikido is so effective and how to use it against other MA's.

That has always been my intention, The techniques in Aikido will work, the rest is up to you. You have to put your heart into it though.

I've been told by many people that it takes a relatively advanced student in aikido to be effective "on the street" and it seems to be a generally accepted opinion almong students of other MA's as well. Almost everyone agrees that aikido can be effective (even devastating) but that it has a much longer learning curve than other arts (such as boxing or karate)

To an extent that is true but, I believe it relys mostly on the practitioner. I have students who have half the mat time of some of the higher ranking students and are 3 times as good. If you don't believe in yout technique and most of all yourself nothing will work.

As for asking the question....Ask all the questions you like the only STUPID question is the question not ASKED.

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

Tim

Jim23
07-26-2001, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Juan Alberto
P.S. Did I do better with the paragraphs?
Ha ha ... we all learn something here. ;) Some people come here as typers and leave as typists (that was bad).

And don't worry about apologizing - not to me anyhow. Besides, you have nothing to apologize about.

I think I now understand why O-Sensei preferred (required?) students that had experience in other MAs. They weren't coming in totally green. They knew how to either kick or throw, (take a kick or throw?) or whatever; even if they chose never to use said MA again.

Jim23

REK
07-26-2001, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by [Censored]
If these people presented a real threat to your well-being, and if you did not have armed state employees backing you up, I'm sure you would grant yourself the luxury of striking.

Yes, I probably would. But I don't at work. And, despite what you see on HBO, there are no armed state employees to back me up. Forensic assessment is done in a secluded pod for sake of confidentiality. Response time is approximately 90 seconds, which is a long time.

As far as other martial arts, it doesn't matter. If your training is thorough and rigorous, your personal dedication to your own improvement (mentally, physically, all of those) is high, then you have nothing to fear.

Perhaps. I think some of us are arguing that Aikido training, as it is defined by Hombu, is generally not throrough and rigorous enough.

That may be. I have never been to Hombu.

The specific art is immaterial.

In that case, stop going to class. Train at home by practicing the moves in "American Ninja 4".

Chris, you missed the point. I have chosen the art that I want to learn. And it was not featured in "American Ninja 4". Aikido is not right for all people due to their individual needs/desires/goals.

We all know aikidoka who you would not try to kick on a bet.

I don't know any, and not because I haven't looked. Though, I believe they may exist.

Might I suggest Boulder Aikikai's Summer Camp in the Rockies? There will be a whole slew of people like that there.

We also know aikidoka who couldn't catch a basketball tossed to them. Is that aikido's fault? I don't think so. Practice, practice, practice.

Practice what, how much, and with whom? That is the subject of this discussion (as always), is it not?

Practice whatever is right for you, it may not be Aikido. Practice a LOT, and do it with the best, most skilled, most accessible instructors you can find. I certainly am biased in favor of those I have seen or trained with, but yours might be different. Go find them.

Rob

jeremy_l
08-15-2001, 04:15 PM
I'm new to aikiweb and I'm also new to aikido. I just joined some two months ago.

I also have that question in mind for quite a while. What can an aikidoka do towards a let's say a karateka?

I've also been thinking... what if you were able to lead the karateka's mind and get him open? Wouldn't that help? I think it matters on knowing yourself and your own art.

I dunno... that's just my opinion.

:p

guest1234
08-15-2001, 05:20 PM
Well Jim, I don't know...I've never heard of O Sensei REQUIRING (will someone please teach me how to italicize) another MA background. We of course know of many of his students who had other MA backgrounds, but think---Aikido was just 'invented', this is pre- and immediately post-war Japan, and the ONLY Aikido dojo had no Aiki kids program. Odds are kind of in favor that his adult students had had training in another MA.

guest1234
08-15-2001, 05:33 PM
I'm back, just wanted to check my facts in the Aikido Journal interview I read last week...a 7th dan, one of the last generation of O Sensei's students, mentioned that the sport of his youth in post war Japan, until he reached college ---baseball! He had some judo (sounds like not much); wouldn't be surprised if the same could be said for the students who train there today. Different time, different place.

L. Camejo
08-15-2001, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by jeremy_l
I'm new to aikiweb and I'm also new to aikido. I just joined some two months ago.

I also have that question in mind for quite a while. What can an aikidoka do towards a let's say a karateka?

:ki: I'm also new to Aikiweb, but I've seen many karateka in the dan grade category become airborne to the most effortless kotegaeshi you may ever see.

I also have some Karate instructors in my Aikido class and they generally agree that Aikido technique does possess a level of superiority over the typical karate attacks. This is of course with all things being equal. I believe at the highest levels, superiority in martial arts is directly linked to mastering oneself and being able to control aggression with effectively extended ki and will power. :triangle:

I've also been thinking... what if you were able to lead the karateka's mind and get him open? Wouldn't that help? I think it matters on knowing yourself and your own art.

:circle: As far as knowing yourself goes, I always refer to Sun Tzu in "The Art of War." -He who knows himself or his enemy alone, can only win half the battle. But he who knows both himself and his enemy has won the whole battle.

I dunno... that's just my opinion.

:p

William Hazen
09-06-2001, 12:04 AM
Hello all,
this is my first post on the board and I look forward to reading and learning from all of you. I practice Aikido as taught by Shoji Nishio Sensei...Our practice emphasizes Atemi all through the technique and as a martial arts veteran of 30+ years I have found Nishio Sensei's practice to be very effective. I suggest you may want to check some of his videos which can be found in the Aikido Journal. Before I started practice with Mike Fowler a 5th Dan Student of Nishio Sensei) I went around Los Angeles to several different Aikido Dojos and sadly most of the senior level instructors could not fight thier way out of a paper bag...I was one of those folks who had grown tired of fighting (My experiance is in Karate,Ju-Jitsu,and Judo)but I did not see the practicality behind most of the Aikido being taught...I feel that Aikido is Budo first and as such it should help the practicioner defend themselves against experianced attackers. Please I am not knocking other techniques... It's just got to work in the real world... Strangely enough I have spent the last 12 years learning Nishio Sensei's method of "not fighting". Peace