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Lorien Lowe
04-25-2006, 07:00 PM
That starts out like a soto kaiten-nage, but has nage's arm slipping down to uke's shoulder, as though the grab had been missed, for an arm-bar type put-down.

anybody?

-LK

David Kai
04-25-2006, 07:43 PM
Do you mean Kata Gatame?

KAI

raul rodrigo
04-25-2006, 08:30 PM
My sensei always called it kaiten lock.

villrg0a
04-25-2006, 11:11 PM
could also be a hijji shime?

Lan Powers
04-25-2006, 11:49 PM
That starts out like a soto kaiten-nage, but has nage's arm slipping down to uke's shoulder, as though the grab had been missed, for an arm-bar type put-down.

anybody?

-LK

Does the "arm-bar type take down" wind up in the kneeling pin from Nikyo?
In the book of O'Sensei's photos from the pre-war years (When he looked to be about 45 or so) the technique I think you are talking about is called Side Enty Nikyo.....
Kato Sensei does his Nikyo Omote very similar to your description also.
If the pin is in a differant position, then it would be something else, but the "slipping the arm up to ukes shoulder" part sure sounds familiar.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the book "Budo" ?
Lan

Sonja2012
04-26-2006, 01:34 AM
I believe we call this ude garami... if I understood your description correctly.

batemanb
04-26-2006, 02:29 AM
I've heard this called a number of things

ude garami (arm entwine)
Kata gatame (shoulder entwine)
hiji shime (elbow lock)

I think there are elements of all of these in the technique, but I know it as hiji shime.

Lorien Lowe
04-26-2006, 12:20 PM
'arm entwine' sounds appropriate. Ude garami - pronounced like it's spelled?
Once we're on the ground we pin with a shoulder/elbow stretch (no flex of the wrist at all), so I don't think it's a type of nikkyo.

thanks everybody!

-LK

raul rodrigo
04-26-2006, 12:51 PM
If I grab ukes wrist as he is face down (left hand to left, or right to right as the case may be), grab my own wrist with my free hand and turn my body toward uke's head, that would be a kind of ude garami, or more commonly a "kimura", named after the judoka Masahiko Kimura. If there is no wrist grabbing involved, then its more like the standard shoulder lock that follows nikyo ura.

saltlakeaiki
04-30-2006, 03:13 PM
If I understood this correctly (although I've never quite known the name of it either...) it strikes me more as a "kata gatame" (shoulder lock/pin) than an "ude garami" (arm entwine) or "hiji shime" (elbow strangulation/constriction). Still, I wouldn't necessarily argue it on semantic grounds :) FWIW, 2nd Doushu Kisshoumaru Sensei in his book AIKIDO uses the term "hiji shime" for a different technique (p. 139 of English edition).

Dave

raul rodrigo
04-30-2006, 07:47 PM
Kata gatame is a judo lock with pressure on the carotid artery thats done with uke face up instead of face down. Its particularly memorable to me because that lock was the first knockout I ever received on the judo mat.

saltlakeaiki
05-01-2006, 12:44 AM
Kata gatame is a judo lock with pressure on the carotid artery thats done with uke face up instead of face down.As I say, I can't speak authoritatively on the name of this aikido technique, but it seems to me entirely possible and likely that different arts use the same name for different techniques. Especially where there's no particular historical relationship between the arts.

Dave