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Saturn
04-11-2006, 02:22 PM
Yonkyo is my favorite wrist lock evileyes , it is painful and effective. I have taken to practicing Aikido off mat like Karate. Maki training is good, and now since I am an Aikidoist I am practicing Yonkyo on a broom stick, I have almost come to the point of breaking the broomstick, then I will move onto rebar. This will be effective in street combat. My question is, does anyone have any other Aikido toughening ideas.

Kevin Leavitt
04-11-2006, 05:23 PM
Not to get into a "street effective" argument by any means, but I'd spend my time learning how to fight on the street with a fully resistant opponents instead of "strengthing" and "toughening". In my experiences there is much more to it than a strong grip. Frankly, I find that Yonkyo does not work so well in "street combat". Kotegaeshi, Ikkyo, and Sankyo work well, but I have had no use for yonkyo.

Not saying that it won't work, because obviously with the right circumstances it will, but it is not a "high percentage" technique.

I'd recommend you find some guys that do different arts and experiment with different situations, timing, distance, weapons etc if you haven't done this already.

Not really sure what you'd accomplish bending rebar. The dynamics of it does not in anyway really replicate any part of the human body. The diameter is smaller than a forearm and there is no moving body attached to it either so fulcrum points are different than a body or arm.

Not trying to argue with you...just offer a counter opinion from my own experiences...take it for what it is worth!

Good luck!

SeiserL
04-12-2006, 08:07 AM
IMHO, if the streets are what you are toughening up for, work on your mind. It is the intent and intensity of the mind that is more important than the strength of your grip.

Dirk Hanss
04-12-2006, 08:19 AM
Hi Trevor,

let me the one, who supports you and your exercises.

I love those pins on broomsticks - although I prefer sticks of gardening tools, which are thicker.

And after years of hard training, I got to such a perfection, that none of the stick could move after being pinned, as hard as they try.

Next month I'll start doing exercises with multiple sticks. ;)

Maybe a bit ironical, but not offensive at all :)

Cordially Dirk

Ron Tisdale
04-12-2006, 09:00 AM
hmmm, aikido toughening.


Train more.


Train smarter.


Find someone who can help you train kokyu, as opposed to 'normal, everyday usage strength'.

Best,
Ron

Don_Modesto
04-12-2006, 01:36 PM
Does anyone have any other Aikido toughening ideas.

What the other posters said.

But if it's not overemphasized, there's nothing wrong with toughening. Yang has several methods in his books on Chin-Na (Taiji Chin Na : The Seizing Art of Taijiquanby Jwing-Ming Yang, et al.).

My instructor in Japan used to punch me in the stomach a lot. Learned to take a bit of a punch and it improved my IRIMI.

He had a fearsome grip, too. Got it by practicing SUBURI with heavy oaken BOKKEN 350 x/day.

Osensei used to pound his forehead against trees to have a good head butt.

Caveat emptor.

Let us know what you decide on and how it goes.

Ron Tisdale
04-12-2006, 01:50 PM
Yeah, especially that head butting trees thingy.... ;) Hey Don...

Best,
Ron

PS Say, does pounding my head on my desk at work count? Aikido Strengthening -- Solving Network Problems with your Head...maybe I could market that??

Saturn
04-12-2006, 07:25 PM
Oh my god his forehead, thats rough. evileyes

Mark Mueller
04-13-2006, 05:23 AM
Osensei used to pound his forehead against trees to have a good head butt.

Ahh.....that would explain all the weird doka!

ian
04-13-2006, 09:12 AM
- throwing up bricks and catching them with your fingers (improves grip strength)
- bokken cuts
- someone told me about this: holding a very heavy iron bar at waist level with both hands and then rotating left and right with hips (builds hip strength)

I think body conditioning IS a useful aspect of martial training. In fact I think all sorts of practise outside the dojo are useful if you are focussing on developing a certain aspect and are aware of how it is helping. Ueshiba also used to carry an old woman to work to build up his leg strength.

Ideally we'd all have great technical skill, but I think power, dedication and determination can make up for a large part of technical skill in real situations.

I've always thought of yonkyo as more of a 'restraining' type pin for semi-compliant people or prior to a real conflict (ikkyo, irimi-nage, kote-gaeshi I think are the most serviceable from very aggressive uncontrolled attacks).

P.S. the force needed to break the broom stick could actually be quite low, depending on how and where the other end is supported. (e.g. if I just push the tip of the broomstick against a wall do yonkyo on the other end, breaking it is easy).

Good luck with novel training ideas!

Koren Ko
04-13-2006, 11:00 AM
So, we need additional exercises and punishments-tough-up to build up more muscles and durablilty in order withstand sudden impact such as a punch?

Well, I have an idea to tough up your Temple area.
Just jump into middle of air, while a ball is kicked over your head. Try to take the sudden shock from the powerful goal on your head, in the temple. Trust me, I was limped for a total 10 minutes and pretty dizzy for a week! :( (Dun really try that, you dun wanna walk like a drunk for a week.)

Best way to toughen up one's durablity is to get a fellow high-rank karate-ka friend to train you.
One, they know better how to do it. They can punch/kick you in certain places without actually hurting you.
Two, they have ways to make sure you will not get injury, especially the internal one. And patch up any immediate injury quickly.

However, most Karate exponents (Lower Rank or intermediate) can't help you to fall safely.

Just my 2 cents thought.

Kevin Leavitt
04-13-2006, 03:25 PM
nothing wrong with conditioning and toughening. Just make sure you are doing it for the right reasons and have the correct expectations on what it is actually doing for you.

Adam Alexander
04-13-2006, 06:31 PM
I am practicing Yonkyo on a broom stick, I have almost come to the point of breaking the broomstick, then I will move onto rebar..

Only in regard to your choice of building materials: I assume that you'll use a piece of rebar similar in length to a broomstick so that you'll be able to leverage it against a wall for resistance. If that's the case, I'd skip the rebar because it's so flexible and it's so narrow. I'd recommend something more along the lines of a 1 1/2" or 2" diameter black pipe. It will not give like rebar. Plus, you can put it in a vise, heat it, and use the vise to warp it more to the shape of wrist.

Better yet, you could get several different sizes of pipe so that you train with many size "wrists."

Just my opinion on building materials.

Dirk Hanss
04-14-2006, 02:14 AM
Just a good and simple (wrist) strengthening, you can nearly do wherever you want:
Just use the wrist warming exercises - nikyo undo, sankyo undo, kotegaeshi undo or just hold one wrist with the other hand and actively twist it (the other hand just resists.

Many dojo do it as joint warming to avoid injuries, so only one hand is active, the other one is passive and relaxed.

If you just use strength and resist as far as you do not harm yourself, it is a good strengthening exercise.

I do not know, if this was in Saotome'S book " Aikido and the harmony of nature", but therre you will find others, mostly paired exercises.

Dirk

Dan Gould
04-14-2006, 09:56 AM
Kevin - What would be the "right reasons" for tempering your body?

Lynn - How do you train your mind for that?

Kevin again - wouldn't it be very dangerous to practice on a fully resistant uke?

And anyone - what's rebar?

Saturn
04-14-2006, 10:00 AM
Yes, at my school we do practice wrist strengthening daily during pre-class warm-up. Also I have read and picked a few choice internal tips and stuff to help with extension and stability and all, however when I see a technique that could be made even more devastating by simple home practice, like the Yonkyo,I try it. After all as anyone whose had yonkyo put on would know, it hurts. But what if you could become strong enough at it to snap the forearm in half, or take a bundle of sticks and practice sankyo until the stick twist into splinters.

I can see alot of people on Aikiweb would not agree much with this, but then look at people in Kung Fu they slap stacks of bricks in half. Are they planning on killing someone-no, probably not. Being strong ought to be enough when striking -right. But why not maximize yourfine tuning- I'm not planning on twisting someones wrist off, but I am in Aikido, so now I have the freedom to experiment and paint whatever picture I wish to paint with what I can learn now. So why not. evileyes

Michael O'Brien
04-17-2006, 09:11 PM
And anyone - what's rebar?

Rebar is a steel bar used to reinforce concrete. Most of the time it is found in smaller diameters ranging from approximately 3/8" to 2".

Home Depot, Lowe's, and other home improvement type stores sell them and can easily buy them in 4' lengths.

Upyu
04-17-2006, 10:16 PM
Shiko stamp.
Spear thrusting,
and generally any kind of r3al tanren training. :)

SeiserL
04-18-2006, 09:38 AM
Lynn - How do you train your mind for that?
My favorite subject.
The first step in training is emptying.

Face the fear-based fantasies you have in your mind about confrontation and aggression in the real world.

Too many people try to strengthen their body while having a weak mind.

Too many people try to fill there minds with positive affirmations without first doing some house cleaning and getting rid of the negative visualization and self-talk about how you stop yourself from being effective that may be based on past experienced.

After you empty, then fill. Then keep that mind set while increasing the intent and intensity of the physical training. The get out of the way and trust your unconscious conditioning.

dps
04-18-2006, 08:20 PM
If you rely on strength you will always find some one stronger, who has practiced on a thicker broomstick or rebar.

David

Jonathan
04-30-2006, 12:43 PM
Trevor:

I actually fractured a fellow's forearm doing dai-yonkyo (or yonkyo on the other side of the forearm from what is normal). Even when I was applying very severe yonkyo pressure to his arm he felt no pain significant enough to cause him to yield to my dai-yonkyo. Being fairly strong, and believing at the time that yonkyo was primarily a pain-oriented technique, I increased my yonkyo force until his arm broke. Even then he felt only a moderate burning sensation in his arm and continued to practice for the next half hour. It was only sometime later when his forearm swelled up and began to ache badly that he went and had it examined and discovered it was broken.

I never did manage to force this guy to the floor with the pain of my yonkyo. He just wasn't as sensitive to the pain of this technique as others are. My point in sharing all of this is that yonkyo is not effective because it hurts. Effective yonkyo has, as I've explained in class to you and your fellow students, far more to do with bending and projecting through uke's elbow than with crushing uke's wrist. As well, powerful yonkyo pressure originates from your center, not your hands. You don't need an iron grip to do yonkyo well.

Regards, your Sensei.

Saturn
05-04-2006, 06:48 AM
Well, hello Sensei, suprised to hear from you on this. Geez, that really had to have hurt that guy in the morning. Your advice is always accepted, after all you are my teacher and know more than I do. I could see there being people with a natural immunity to the yonkyo pressure point, and well I guess since I'm still so new to Aikido I focus alot on strength and such, and always forget that the takedowns are made by unbalancing. Probably why I can never throw you or the seniors when they decide they don't want to be thrown.

Anyhow I don't think it really matters but finally I got my hands on rebar and bent it, sure hurt, and broke the stick so I guess thats all over with.

See you in class,
Trevor

statisticool
05-04-2006, 03:44 PM
My question is, does anyone have any other Aikido toughening ideas.

I read an aikido book recently that suggested doing pushups on your wrists (as opposed to knuckles or palms).

Michael O'Brien
05-04-2006, 04:28 PM
I read an aikido book recently that suggested doing pushups on your wrists (as opposed to knuckles or palms).
Done those, they hurt. :D

Ian Upstone
05-05-2006, 02:42 AM
I've seen folks who seem to take great delight in causing their uke as much pain as possible and conversly, demonstrating how much pain they can take with wrist locks. All, probably I'm guessing, to demonstrate how very 'martial' they are being.

My personal priority when applying these sort of techniques is that it is tactically sound - i.e. the lock or control buckles ukes structure - they can't get up and can't reach you with their free hand etc.

I'm all for strengthening as form of injury prevention, but strengthening in order to make your techniques more effective? I think it's counter-productive to learning efficient technique. If you want to get through a door, you open it rather than bash it down.

Upyu
05-14-2006, 07:53 PM
Might seem like a joke to some, but I highly reccomend the exercises listed on the Japanese Sumo homepage:
http://www.sumo.or.jp/eng/kyokai/kenko_taiso.html

Especially Shiko.
Has a direct correlation to the "strength" needed to do aiki type movements,
not to mention that they give not so subtle hints of what parts need to be strengthened in the human body for efficient movement.
(Why else would sagawa and other tatsujin reccomend strengthening the body by doing this exercise at least a couple hundred times a day ;) )

kokyu
05-15-2006, 05:15 AM
I read an aikido book recently that suggested doing pushups on your wrists (as opposed to knuckles or palms).

I visited one dojo that does wrist pushups as part of the usual warm up. They do it with the palms bent inwards (x repetitions) and outwards (another x repetitions)...

I was impressed by the standard of Aikido there as well.

Niko_Brekalo
06-03-2006, 09:07 PM
If you want a physical work out, sit seza on one end of the mat, then pick a forward roll start on ur left side, and roll to the other end of the mat, as soon as u reach the end, ushiro roll back to the other end, as soon as u get back to the starting spot, do the right side and so on and so fourth. then go to standing.

If you want to work on your focus, sit seza and have someone place their hands on your shoulders and try and push u over. If they cant push you over, get 2 people, and more and more until you cant find anyone else.

If you want to work on your techniques, pick a good uke and be as soft as you can on any technique, but soft enough so the lock/throw/pin works.

Repeat all the above

David Orange
06-04-2006, 11:57 AM
Yonkyo is my favorite wrist lock evileyes , it is painful and effective. I have taken to practicing Aikido off mat like Karate. Maki training is good, and now since I am an Aikidoist I am practicing Yonkyo on a broom stick, I have almost come to the point of breaking the broomstick, then I will move onto rebar. This will be effective in street combat. My question is, does anyone have any other Aikido toughening ideas.

Squeeze a three-inch bamboo and see if you can crush it. My teacher said O Sensei could do that (didn't specify a size, though...three inches sounds about right...you choose). Let me know how it goes.

Best wishes,

David

DonMagee
06-05-2006, 08:21 AM
If you rely on strength you will always find some one stronger, who has practiced on a thicker broomstick or rebar.

David

People say this a lot, and I generally agree. But couldn't the same be true about internal power as well. You will always find someone who has more internal training then you. (For example your instructor). So wouldn't it be wise to be as strong both externally and internally as possible?

Dirk Hanss
06-05-2006, 08:35 AM
Sounds good and reasonable Don,
but if two people have great internal power, they would agree upon the higher skilled, without loosing a word and harming anybody.

But you need sufficient physical force nevertheless to get along with a bully.

So any of these simple rules are right and wrong at the same time. They depend on the situation and purpose.

Regards


Dirk

David Orange
06-06-2006, 04:00 PM
So wouldn't it be wise to be as strong both externally and internally as possible?

I've always found it strange that there is so much denial of the role of strength and strength development in aikido.

People forget (or never understood) that Morihei Ueshiba was a physically very powerful man. According to Kisshomaru Ueshiba in "Aikido" (the book), Morihei's original motivation for learning martial arts was that he watched his father being beaten up by a gang because of his political beliefs. Morihei determined that he would never suffer such indignity and he began training to develop strength. He lived a tough life, always seeking greater strength and by the time he was known as a martial artist, he was exceedingly strong. He learned how to do technique without using that strength, but it took his vast strength to reach the point where he was able to do that.

In modern aikido, people are worshipful of Morihei but they refuse to accept that he was a fanatical bodybuilder long before he was known as a sage. And it was the strength building that allowed him to master martial arts far enough to become known as a sage.

But ignore that fact, ignore that uke is a living, naturally responsive person, don't allow him to use his own strength and skill, then tell ourselves that our "effortless" (strengthless) aikido is really following "what O Sensei wanted us to do...." and we might as well train in jellodo.

ksy
06-07-2006, 03:49 AM
I've always found it strange that there is so much denial of the role of strength and strength development in aikido.

People forget (or never understood) that Morihei Ueshiba was a physically very powerful man. According to Kisshomaru Ueshiba in "Aikido" (the book), Morihei's original motivation for learning martial arts was that he watched his father being beaten up by a gang because of his political beliefs. Morihei determined that he would never suffer such indignity and he began training to develop strength. He lived a tough life, always seeking greater strength and by the time he was known as a martial artist, he was exceedingly strong. He learned how to do technique without using that strength, but it took his vast strength to reach the point where he was able to do that.

In modern aikido, people are worshipful of Morihei but they refuse to accept that he was a fanatical bodybuilder long before he was known as a sage. And it was the strength building that allowed him to master martial arts far enough to become known as a sage.

But ignore that fact, ignore that uke is a living, naturally responsive person, don't allow him to use his own strength and skill, then tell ourselves that our "effortless" (strengthless) aikido is really following "what O Sensei wanted us to do...." and we might as well train in jellodo.


i think i read somewhere that after seeing his father beaten up, o-sensei wanted to grow up to be big n strong, so he could kick some a**. So he trained and worked real hard. And with that strong physical strength, discipline and exceptional talent, he become a martial arts master and a feared fighter.

However, as time passed, o sensei began to understand the limitations of martial arts based on the physical strength as well, where over time younger, faster and stronger fighters would start to emerge and challenge him, much like the situation where an aging gunfighter in the wild west would find himself(that's what i read). and as such, he incorporated techniques into his fighting methods which put more emphasis on awareness, centering and positioning rather than physical strength per se, thus creating a "different" form of fighting.

having said that, i got nothing against a person who wants to be at his/her physical best as well. I think it's good to strive to maintain a certain level, whether its physical, mental or spiritual. just my 2 cents...

David Orange
06-07-2006, 02:44 PM
as time passed, o sensei began to understand the limitations of martial arts based on the physical strength as well...and as such, he incorporated techniques into his fighting methods which put more emphasis on awareness, centering and positioning rather than physical strength per se, thus creating a "different" form of fighting.

The knowledge of using position, centering and awareness were all part of daito ryu. O Sensei had his "budo is love" revelations after he had trained extensively in that art. I don't think aikido relies less on strength than aikijujutsu. What was original in O Sensei's technique is similar to what Jigoro Kano did with jujutsu to create judo. He dropped the very dangerous forms but kept a real dynamic practice that can be enjoyed vigorously at a very high level while maintaining a great margin of safety and mutual respect.

The problem with that is that some very weak people are convinced that their aikido can nullify strong men. Maybe, but not if they're very strong and also experienced at fighting.

Well, strength has its limits, both for humans in general and for individuals specifically. We cease to grow strong after a point and begin to deteriorate.

But to beat a strong man without using strength, you still have to be pretty strong in many ways.

For instance, one of the strongest men I've ever known was a tiny little fellow, Murai Kyoichi, who trained extensively with Minoru Mochizuki but also with Morihei Ueshiba. Murai sensei is under five feet tall, under 100 pounds. I knew him in his seventies and eighties. He's now in his nineties and still training. He never used strength, but he was incredibly strong when he acted because he acted at the precise moment and at the precise place to get maximum results. He respected strength, but he didn't rely on it. I think that's really how O Sensei became. But I don't believe he would have ever become known and aikido would never have become known if O Sensei were not stronger than everyone he met in the days before he realized that "budo is love" and "true victory is self victory".

The danger is in thinking that we can short-cut his attainment. Because although there is a limit to the power of strength, it's usually much easier to find the limit of weakness.

Thanks,

David

ksy
06-07-2006, 09:01 PM
The knowledge of using position, centering and awareness were all part of daito ryu. O Sensei had his "budo is love" revelations after he had trained extensively in that art. I don't think aikido relies less on strength than aikijujutsu. What was original in O Sensei's technique is similar to what Jigoro Kano did with jujutsu to create judo. He dropped the very dangerous forms but kept a real dynamic practice that can be enjoyed vigorously at a very high level while maintaining a great margin of safety and mutual respect.

The problem with that is that some very weak people are convinced that their aikido can nullify strong men. Maybe, but not if they're very strong and also experienced at fighting.

Well, strength has its limits, both for humans in general and for individuals specifically. We cease to grow strong after a point and begin to deteriorate.

But to beat a strong man without using strength, you still have to be pretty strong in many ways.

For instance, one of the strongest men I've ever known was a tiny little fellow, Murai Kyoichi, who trained extensively with Minoru Mochizuki but also with Morihei Ueshiba. Murai sensei is under five feet tall, under 100 pounds. I knew him in his seventies and eighties. He's now in his nineties and still training. He never used strength, but he was incredibly strong when he acted because he acted at the precise moment and at the precise place to get maximum results. He respected strength, but he didn't rely on it. I think that's really how O Sensei became. But I don't believe he would have ever become known and aikido would never have become known if O Sensei were not stronger than everyone he met in the days before he realized that "budo is love" and "true victory is self victory".

The danger is in thinking that we can short-cut his attainment. Because although there is a limit to the power of strength, it's usually much easier to find the limit of weakness.

Thanks,

David


dear david,

your responses are insightful but i cannot verify nor "un-verify" the points with you, due to my lack of thorough aikido historical knowledge. Though i think in any form of MA (karate, tkd etc) you can find "weak"people who want a short-cut to success or who know a bit but believe that they can kick major ass, that's a given. and even if i was an experienced karateka, aikidoist, which i'm not, i may still have have problems if coming up against someone strong and experienced at fighting.

"But to beat a strong man without using strength, you still have to be pretty strong in many ways." - i never had a chance to meet a great aikido master (not yet anyway) but like u said, Murai sensei was incredibly strong yet he didn't rely on physical strength per se, he acted at the precise moment and at the precise place to get maximum results. Gozo shioda called this timing.

O sensei was already known as a great martial artist, before he created aikido and would have been remembered as a great martial artist bcos of his strength and fighting talent, but fortunately, (from what i read, again) his aging caused him to reconsider his techniques bcos all his power and prowess were slowly seeping with age. i don't know much about aikijitsu and i don't know what "dangerous" forms were dropped, or the reasons why they were. perhaps those forms required a stronger physically exertion? i don't know. But I believe that if o sensei had continued to rely on his physical strength as a major contributor to his fighting effectiveness, he would never have ended up a legend bcos he would never have created that something else.

"The danger is in thinking that we can short-cut his attainment. Because although there is a limit to the power of strength, it's usually much easier to find the limit of weakness." - yes, however the danger is not only limited to the physical self, my friend. whenever a person thinks that he or she is "good enough", that danger exist whether in the form of physical, mental or technical overconfidence.

cheers, man...