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Thalib
04-06-2006, 04:52 AM
It is a disease to be possessed by ideas of victory or of technique.

It is also a disease to be possessed by the idea of showing the results of your training.

It is a disease to be determined to attack first or, conversely, to wait for the opponent's move.

It is a disease even to be possessed by the idea of removing all such diseases.


The disease is a state of mind that is rigid and fixed, in whatever situation.

All such diseases stem from your state of mind.

It is important to control the mind.

From "Hei-Ho-Kaden-Sho" by Yagyu Tajimanokami Munenori

Erick Mead
04-06-2006, 07:39 AM
It is a disease to be possessed by ideas of victory or of technique.

It is also a disease to be possessed by the idea of showing the results of your training.

It is a disease to be determined to attack first or, conversely, to wait for the opponent's move.

It is a disease even to be possessed by the idea of removing all such diseases.

The disease is a state of mind that is rigid and fixed, in whatever situation.

Ah yes .. but --

It is a disease to be possessed by ideas of defeat or incompetence.

It is also a disease to be possessed by the idea of concealing the faults of your training.

It is a disease to be uncertain whether to attack first or, conversely, to wait for the opponent's move.

It is a disease even to be possessed by the idea of removing all such diseases.

The disease is a state of mind that refuses take any shape, in a concrete situation.

All such diseases stem from your state of mind.

It is important to control the mind.
From "Hei-Ho-Kaden-Sho" by Yagyu Tajimanokami Munenori

All such diseases stem from your state of mind.

It is important to release the mind.

不 無 無
動 心 為





Cordially,
Erick Mead

Erick Mead
04-06-2006, 07:52 AM
The last post above was an exercise in a distinction that physicist Niels Bohr attribruted to his father:

"There are great tuths and trivial truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is clearly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true."

Cordially,
Erick Mead

SeiserL
04-06-2006, 08:58 AM
IMHO, a mind fixed on victory or defeat is dis-ease.
OTOH, its the mind.
Its a useful tool.

Robert Rumpf
04-06-2006, 10:41 AM
The passage subsequent to the one you quoted that speaks about how to "cure" those "diseases" is also invaluable.

I seem to remember there being 6 diseases though, and the wording that I remember is different - must be a translation issue. Whose translation are you looking at?

Rob

MikeLogan
04-06-2006, 02:33 PM
Thanks Erick, I was just about to remark that you and Thalib had said the same thing, but you said it for me. I haven't gotten very far into it but Takuan Soho's letters to Munenori describe the same idea as the 'affliction of the abiding place', and conversely that immovable wisdom is possessed by one who does not stop at any one place (mentally, I'm guessing.) (naturally, movement in martial arts is, uh, necessary)

Thalib
04-06-2006, 09:14 PM
不 無 無
動 心 為




Ah yes... Of course... what you have said cannot be denied

By the way, what does the first line read?

I know the second one is mushin (no mind), or sometimes written as mushin no shin (the mind of no mind).

The third one is fudoushin (the immovable mind/spirit)


Regards,

K

Thalib
04-06-2006, 09:16 PM
"There are great tuths and trivial truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is clearly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true."


In other words... the only absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth...

Well, at least in this relative world...


Regards,

K'

Thalib
04-06-2006, 09:28 PM
I seem to remember there being 6 diseases though, and the wording that I remember is different - must be a translation issue. Whose translation are you looking at?

I was reading a book titled "Secret Tactics: Lessons from Great Masters of Martial Arts" by Kazumi Tabata.

The book itself is like an excerpt of old texts. It is split into 3 sections:

The Book of Seven Masters:

Hei-Ho-Kaden-Sho
Ittosai Sensei Kenpo-sho
Fudochi Shinmyo Roku
Tai A Ki
Gorin-sho
Jyoseishi Kendan
Tengu Geizutsuron
Secret of Tactics

Leadership:

Hagakure
Teio-gaku and Jyogan Seiyou
Gichou
Sai-Kon-Tan

Enlightenment:

Ten levels of Enlightenment
Harmony
Satori



1.8. Secret of Tactics is written by the author himself. It's actually not one of the seven he mentioned.

Erick Mead
04-06-2006, 10:23 PM
Ah yes... Of course... what you have said cannot be denied

By the way, what does the first line read?
K



Mu - i. "no-action" "do nothing" "nothing done"

Chinese = "wu-wei"

BTW, is the Jakarta Annual Highland Games still going strong? Best time I ever had doing close to nothing at all. Whisky doesn't count.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Thalib
04-07-2006, 12:36 AM



Mu - i. "no-action" "do nothing" "nothing done"

Chinese = "wu-wei"

BTW, is the Jakarta Annual Highland Games still going strong? Best time I ever had doing close to nothing at all. Whisky doesn't count.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Now, "wu-wei" I have heard... First time I heard "mu-i"... but I get the meaning. Chinese martial arts speak about this a lot...

Highland Gathering? I believe they're still having it at the golf course in Lippo Karawaci. Last time I went was like 2 years ago. We were giving an Aikido demonstration there. Don't ask me why we were doing Japanese Martial arts in a Scottish event. Anyway, they did some cross cultural stuff also. Some of us, including myself, ended up in a tug-o-war match representing Amigos... hehehe... won 2nd place though...

Thalib
04-07-2006, 12:38 AM
IMHO, a mind fixed on victory or defeat is dis-ease.
OTOH, its the mind.
Its a useful tool.

Yes, I believe it is more to dis-ease than it is to illness. One's mind will be cluttered if one's mind is thinking too much into this.

Erick Mead
04-07-2006, 07:43 AM
Highland Gathering? I believe they're still having it at the golf course in Lippo Karawaci. Last time I went was like 2 years ago. We were giving an Aikido demonstration there. Don't ask me why we were doing Japanese Martial arts in a Scottish event.
And in Indonesia -- a celebration of our certain common, <ahem>, distillation of spirit, perhaps ...

Cordially,
Erick Mead


Bir, silahkan. Terima kasih.

(and apart from Bahasa -- I can say that in like ten languages, easy. Not much else though. But what else do you need, now -- really?)

billybob
04-07-2006, 09:25 AM
This is an interesting discussion. In a different thread I read Jun's statement on feeling that uke and nage are one. This got me thinking of an experience I had that seems to connect to this discussion.

Some people find this 'no topic' very frustrating. One of these people questioned me on my thoughts on martial arts. I described learning that uke and nage 'were not different', and I could not identify where nage ended and I began, that technique had become not only effortless, but joyous and life itself. This person laughed, labeled my philosophy as one of the buddhisms and proceeded to chop down the fragments of thought he had labelled my description of my learning with.

I never studied Buddhism. I grew up Catholic, and studied only judo's physical elements. From where did I learn what I had? I always said it was 'just judo'.

Now I say, "gosh i was good at judo - hand me the aspirin and I'll try that tenkan thing again!!"

:)

dave

Erick Mead
04-07-2006, 09:50 AM
... I described learning that uke and nage 'were not different', and I could not identify where nage ended and I began, that technique had become not only effortless, but joyous and life itself. This person laughed, labeled my philosophy as one of the buddhisms and proceeded to chop down the fragments of thought he had labelled my description of my learning with.

I never studied Buddhism. I grew up Catholic, and studied only judo's physical elements. From where did I learn what I had? I always said it was 'just judo'.
... dave
This has been said by many notable Catholic scholars, including Blaise Pascal, Nicola Cusanus and most notably perhaps, St. Bonaventure, a favorite of our present theologically-minded pontiff, Benedict XVI. St. Bonaventure said this, most likely adopting an earlier Greek pseudo-Hermetic fomula:
The Consideration of the Divine Unity Through Its Primary Name Which Is BEING." ... "8. ... As eternal and most present, it encompasses and enters all duration. existing, as it were, at one and the same time as their center and their circumference. Likewise, because it is the most simple and the greatest, it is wholly within all things and wholly outside them; hence it is "an intelligible sphere, whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere". ...". Latin: "est sphaera intelligibilis, cuius centrum est ubique et circumferentia nusquam"
We can generally hold our own in the mystical department . . .

Bet he could have done a mean koyku tanden ho.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

billybob
04-07-2006, 02:08 PM
Sir,

I honor your learning, but in keeping with my 'nom de guerre' on this web I will now wax both vulgar and pedestrian.

"Whoever possesses God in their being, has him in a divine manner, and he shines out to them in all things; for them all things taste of God and in all things it is God's image that they see." -Meister Eckhart

I feel this very deeply, but some Sunday mornings I see the middle age hungover........nay I see and Smell the middle age hung over creature before me and wonder "Why God why?".

Dave

George S. Ledyard
04-07-2006, 07:49 PM
Now, "wu-wei" I have heard... First time I heard "mu-i"... but I get the meaning. Chinese martial arts speak about this a lot...

Highland Gathering? I believe they're still having it at the golf course in Lippo Karawaci. Last time I went was like 2 years ago. We were giving an Aikido demonstration there. Don't ask me why we were doing Japanese Martial arts in a Scottish event. Anyway, they did some cross cultural stuff also. Some of us, including myself, ended up in a tug-o-war match representing Amigos... hehehe... won 2nd place though...

The term "wu-wei" is better translated as "non-action"... the translation as "no action" or "do nothing" do not have the right flavor of ambiguity. Wu-wei does not mean doing nothing, it is not the absence of action but rather action which is so in accord with the Tao, so completely natural that it is unnoticed. It requires no forceful effort, no contention, and therefore things seem to naturally fall into place. But it isn't a negation of action or a passive attitude of doing nothing,

Thalib
04-08-2006, 08:21 AM
The term "wu-wei" is better translated as "non-action"... the translation as "no action" or "do nothing" do not have the right flavor of ambiguity. Wu-wei does not mean doing nothing, it is not the absence of action but rather action which is so in accord with the Tao, so completely natural that it is unnoticed. It requires no forceful effort, no contention, and therefore things seem to naturally fall into place. But it isn't a negation of action or a passive attitude of doing nothing,

This is true.

In order to avoid confusion, two opposites are usually used, for example:

The mind of no mind
The action of no action

Maybe... this became more confusing to some. Sometimes, I want to avoid the misunderstanding of no mind as being totally devoid of thoughts, that's why sometimes it's best to use "mushin no shin" instead of "mushin".

Then again, it will even confuse some people even more... :p

Thalib
04-08-2006, 08:23 AM
This has been said by many notable Catholic scholars, including Blaise Pascal, Nicola Cusanus and most notably perhaps, St. Bonaventure, a favorite of our present theologically-minded pontiff, Benedict XVI. St. Bonaventure said this, most likely adopting an earlier Greek pseudo-Hermetic fomula:

We can generally hold our own in the mystical department . . .

Bet he could have done a mean koyku tanden ho.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Dear Sir,

I have no clue what you are talking about in the first paragraph, perhaps a bit too scholarly for me.

But, the beer starting to sound good...

"Tolong, satu bir lagi..." :hypno:

Erick Mead
04-10-2006, 08:12 AM
The term "wu-wei" is better translated as "non-action"... the translation as "no action" or "do nothing" do not have the right flavor of ambiguity. Wu-wei does not mean doing nothing, it is not the absence of action but rather action which is so in accord with the Tao, so completely natural that it is unnoticed. It requires no forceful effort, no contention, and therefore things seem to naturally fall into place. But it isn't a negation of action or a passive attitude of doing nothing,

Actually, I was attempting to get the common flavor of the Japanese "mui," which is more in the vein of merely "inactivity, idleness" and very nearly pejorative. It lacks the ambiguity and sublety of "wu-wei" in the Chinese, which is why I mentioned it.

"Mu-shin," acting in "no-mind," more typically captures the Japanese approach to this constellation of ideas, but they are not the same perspectives. "Wu-wei" (closely connected with ideas of "li" 理 "inner principle, structure or logic") has a different sensibility from "mushin," and "mui" in Japanese a different sensibility from "wu-wei" in Chinese, even though the characters are the same for both expressions.

The languages are as different as the cultures, however close their cultural borrowings, and their shared writing system.

Besides which, a Taoist worth his salt would happily nod agreement with the pejorative "Do-nothing" with a broad smile upon his face, and a quick wink of his eye.

As I recall, in our seminar last month, Ledyard Sensei prevailed on us that we were all "doing" too much and needed to do not much at all... ;) It is simultaneously uplifting and chastening to find the things you are urgently trying to teach your students to NOT do at one level, your betters are also teaching, and yet he still catches ME doing it at another level.

有り難う御座います Ledyard 先生

And the wheel turns . . .

Cordially,
Erick Mead