Thick forearms

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[kokyu]

After training for a relatively short while, I've noticed that many Aikido veterans have very thick forearms - like "tree trunks" as one friend put it.

Out of curiosity, do people develop these forearms because of certain exercises (e.g. morotedori kokyu ho, kokyu dosa), bokken suburi practice or just everyday training?

Thanks. :D

[Rupert Atkinson]

I would say, on average, there are more big forearm people in Aikido than in other arts.

I put it down to lots of breakfalling and slapping the mat - I think Aikidoka do a lot more than in other arts, plus a little nikyo and sankyo, of course. But then, I have come across the occasional Taichi person with big forwarms too ...

[aikidoc]

I think it is more likely due to using the forearms and wrists more - kokyu ho hand position. Just MHO

[B.J.M.]

Oh boy, it's late.....

I've noticed that doing alot of cuts with the bokken, (or bokken training in general such as kumitachi ), really build up the forearms.

Take a look at Chiba sensei or Shibata sensei's forearms; they're HUGE!!

What I've also noticed is that most advanced aikidoist also develope "hair cuffs" on the wrists. Don't worry ladies, I've only really seen it on the men.

I do agree on the "kokyu hands" also helping in the development of the forearms and wrists.

[batemanb]

Tai no henka is excellent for developing the forearms, especially doing it with gorilla uke`s that hold on tight :). Bokuto suburi also develops the same muscles well.

As for the "hair cuffs", I `ve seen this and have my own set. A long time ago I was visiting an acupuncture sensei here in Kobe (where I am this week) he was also a chiropractor and 7th dan karateka. He told me that the body develops hair in order to protect itself, given the amount of katatedori I`ve experienced in the last 14 years, I can well believe that, just glad I don`t have anyone grabbing my back :) .

rgds
Bryan

[kokyu]

Tai no henka is excellent for developing the forearms, especially doing it with gorilla uke`s that hold on tight :). Bokuto suburi also develops the same muscles well.

As for the "hair cuffs", I `ve seen this and have my own set. A long time ago I was visiting an acupuncture sensei here in Kobe (where I am this week) he was also a chiropractor and 7th dan karateka. He told me that the body develops hair in order to protect itself, given the amount of katatedori I`ve experienced in the last 14 years, I can well believe that, just glad I don`t have anyone grabbing my back :) .

rgds
Bryan

Interesting... I haven't noticed those hair cuffs before. I should try looking out for those. As for the acupuncture sensei, is he the one that works near Nakao Sensei's shop?

[Eddie deGuzman]

A funny and timely thread. Friday one of the older guys in the dojo showed me his hairy wrists and said it was because he was brutalized while training in the old days. This makes me believe his hairy little story. :freaky:

[Lyle Bogin]

It's from all of the gripping.

[Ben Eaton]

Seems reasonable that it's from all these things, but it does make it hard to grip sensei's wrists when he's demonstrating if you can barely get your hands round them!

[Kevin Leavitt]

I shave my wrist! :)

[James Kelly]

Sorry to say, I’ve seen the hair cuffs on women too. And on men who are otherwise hairless...

As to the big forearms... a true story – a high ranking guy I know, his forearms are so big he has to get specialty suits and shirts made so he can fit them in the cuffs.

You only get big forearms by using your fingers and wrists so nage with a gorilla uke is not going to make them bigger. Trying to resist that gorilla while he’s nage, that’ll make them bigger. But in my experience, the guys with the biggest forearms do a lot of sword work or do specific exercises to strengthen their grip. But it’s interesting that there are some equally high ranked folk who do as much sword work as the next guy and don’t have the Popeye arms. I wonder if it’s more about how they train.

Anyone know if O Sensei was purported to have big forearms?

[seank]

told me that the body develops hair in order to protect itself

I also wonder whether this might be a similar effect to shaving; the hair being worn off at the follicle level and growing back thicker, or with more than one hair growing in place.

I've been training for two and half years and already have noticeably hairier wrists...

As I was told when I first started Aikido, make sure you don't pick a fight with someone who was large forearms and hairy wrists ;)

[PhilMyKi]

I shave my wrist! :)

So do I :D Actually I test my open razor on it! But I have noticed an increase on hair on my wrists from what Bryan refers to as gorilla ukes. :p

[batemanb]

Interesting... I haven't noticed those hair cuffs before. I should try looking out for those. As for the acupuncture sensei, is he the one that works near Nakao Sensei's shop?

There are a couple of acupunturists training with Nakao Sensei, but it wasn`t any of them :). It was the family doctor out in the sticks.

[batemanb]

So do I :D Actually I test my open razor on it! But I have noticed an increase on hair on my wrists from what Bryan refers to as gorilla ukes. :p

And you`re not a gorilla are you Phil:D?

I bet you shave your chest too :) Do you go in for waxing like Mark? ;)

[batemanb]

You only get big forearms by using your fingers and wrists so nage with a gorilla uke is not going to make them bigger. Trying to resist that gorilla while he's nage, that'll make them bigger.

I`ve been training for 14 years now, and beingquite lanky don`t have particularly big forearms. However, when I lived in Tokyo for a couple of years, we did a hell of a lot of Tai no henka, it was during this time that I started to develop the old Popeye forearms, they`re just not that obvious :D .

[PhilMyKi]

And you`re not a gorilla are you Phil:D?

I bet you shave your chest too :) Do you go in for waxing like Mark? ;)

It is funny because it is true :D Actually shaved it once after one of the bigger guys grabbed a handful - got ribbed big time. Decided it is better to be a bit of an ape :D

[xuzen]

My sensei said before that his sensei i.e., Shioda Kancho has forearm/wrist that are disproportionately huge for his size. He said that it is probably from his Kendo days. I think it is true, ken suburi will strengten forearm and wrist.

Other activities that will make huge forearm...
1) Slapping the mat hard during ukemi
2) Grabbing tightly as uke
3) Ken/jo suburi

Of the above, IMO #3 is the greatest contributor.

[PhilMyKi]

Here is a good one ... I have just been told that my forearms are bigger than the biceps of most of the guy's in the office and it my hands look like a couple of frozen chickens (in size, not all plucked)!

[kokyu]

My sensei said before that his sensei i.e., Shioda Kancho has forearm/wrist that are disproportionately huge for his size. He said that it is probably from his Kendo days. I think it is true, ken suburi will strengten forearm and wrist.
Tai no henka is excellent for developing the forearms, especially doing it with gorilla uke`s that hold on tight . Bokuto suburi also develops the same muscles well.

From the comments so far, it looks like ken suburi is the reason for many people's 'Popeye' forearms...

Also, it's been some time since I've heard people talk about 'gorilla ukes'. I remember a changing room conversation... "I wasn't feeling too well today, so I was lucky not to have got a 25-year old gorilla as a partner"... I remember turning around to look at the speaker, and he looked every inch a gorilla himeself :)

Funnily enough, this thread has made me examine my wrists more carefully, and realized I've got hair cuffs too! I don't have hairy arms, but long hair growing around my wrists - about the same area as that taken up by a katatedori grip... now if only I could get 'em forearms :p

[pezalinski]

As for the "hair cuffs", I`ve seen this and have my own set. A long time ago I was visiting an acupuncture sensei here in Kobe (where I am this week) he was also a chiropractor and 7th dan karateka. He told me that the body develops hair in order to protect itself....

So we finally have an excuse for back hair, too, huh? For protecting us against all of those falls.... :freaky:

[Saturn]

I think thick forearms are annoying for when doing Yonkyo.

[aikidoc]

I don't buy the slapping the mat-maybe pushing yourself up off the mat after would do it.

Hair is not supposed to grow more with shaving or stimulation. Maybe you've just got hairy wrists-better than hairy palms I guess :)

[Dirk Hanss]

I think thick forearms are annoying for when doing Yonkyo.
I have an aikido follow with thick and strong forearms and wrists. I do not have problems doing yonkyo on him. He has some problems, as I often press harder than needed while I do not feel the yonkyo point :yuck:

Kotegaeshi and shihonage are much more difficult. I have to hold his wrist very firm to not loos it and in shihonage I nearly have to dislocate his shoulder - his arms are not flexible at all.

They are all beginner's faults, but on "normal" uke, I do not have these problems - maybe others ;)

Dirk

[kokyu]

I have an aikido follow with thick and strong forearms and wrists. I do not have problems doing yonkyo on him. He has some problems, as I often press harder than needed while I do not feel the yonkyo point :yuck:

This is off the track, but that's interesting. From what little I know, and what I've been told, it's supposed to be easier to do yonkyo on people with thin forearms... In any case, I think the lock is more important that hitting the nerve as discussed here (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9567&page=1&pp=25&highlight=yonkyo)

[ikkitosennomusha]

I can't say aikido has built me up because I came into aikido as a bodybuilder. It has however, maintained my masculinity. I had huge forearms already. At the time I began aikido, my biceps were 21" and I don't recall the exact measurement of my forearms but yeah, they were huge.

[batemanb]

Kotegaeshi and shihonage are much more difficult. I have to hold his wrist very firm to not loos it and in shihonage I nearly have to dislocate his shoulder - his arms are not flexible at all.

They are all beginner's faults, but on "normal" uke, I do not have these problems - maybe others ;)

Dirk

Not beginners faults, you just need more practice.You shouldn`t have to nearly dislocate his shoulder, regardless of how long he/ you have been practicing, nor is his lack of flexibility part of the problem ;).

rgds

Bryan

[Dirk Hanss]

Not beginners faults, you just need more practice.
Sorry Bryan, ... but what is the difference?
More practice helps me improving my technique - and gets uke's arm more flexible.

Oh yes, and as his body learns about the pain, he will move (dance) better before it occurs, yes? ;)

Dirk

[batemanb]

Hi Dirk,

I may be wrong, but your post indicated it was the fault of your uke for being a beginner.

They are all beginner's faults, but on "normal" uke, I do not have these problems - maybe others

I`m just suggesting that in my experience it`s not the uke at fault :).

rgds

Bryan

[Dirk Hanss]

Hi Dirk,

I may be wrong, but your post indicated it was the fault of your uke for being a beginner.


You are wrong, I was talking about my fault. :hypno: :drool: :crazy:

If I did better aikido, I would never have to rely on my grip, so thick, strong or inflexible arms would not matter.

Is that clear now?

You see, I do not only have to improve my aikido techniques, but also my daily life communications. And that is "aikido in everyday life". If you master one, you just have to adopt it to the other one.


Dirk

[NagaBaba]

Not beginners faults, you just need more practice.You shouldn`t have to nearly dislocate his shoulder, regardless of how long he/ you have been practicing, nor is his lack of flexibility part of the problem ;).

rgds

Bryan
Sorry Brian, but you are big idealist.

Lack of flexibility and very strong arms/forearms have key influence on the way that nage execute a technique.
If attacker with such properties decide to block your movement, and believe me it is always possible in aikido framework, nage have to do very strong lock on uke arm in order to put him off balance. Such lock of course can easy dislocate joints if attacker still fights back.
That happens, cos nage is working on the limit of physical capacities of human body. Lock usually is done by nage, by using whole body that attacks for example elbow joint. It is impossible to control well a power of lock, when nage is doing full power irimi. As in this situation nage has no window to ajust his technique, it is uke responsibility to take care about his own safety. That is a reason, why ppl with thick forearms must develop extreme flexibility, otherwise no save practice is possible with them.

best

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Mr. S,

I know what you mean, especially if done in realtime. Some waza are best done with sharp movements, and when done that way, there isn't time for a really safe reaction. you almost have to be taking a fall intentionally to survive some of those throws. People talk about how the shite should always protect uke, and yet give full power in some situations...personally, I don't see it so much.

Best,
Ron

[Ron Tisdale]

I should add that the above is one reason I like slow training...you can take the slack out of the relationship, do the full movement, use reasonable power, and still keep uke safe. Too fast, and with the connective tissues already at their limit, injuries are almost inevitable.

Best,
Ron

[NagaBaba]

connective tissues, well put, Ron! :) looks like you preserved yours. Lucky you! ;)

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I can't say aikido has built me up because I came into aikido as a bodybuilder. It has however, maintained my masculinity.

I've never thought in Aikido as a way to maintain "masculinity", but...

[ruthmc]

:) OK, so how do I grow my hands bigger so they can grab and hold all these big thick hairy wrists in katatedori? ;)

With some folk it's like a shark trying to chew a large solid beach ball - I just bounce off 'em.

Perhaps katatedori isn't an appropriate attack for these types of forearms? :crazy:

Ruth

[batemanb]

Sorry Brian, but you are big idealist.

Hi Szczepan,

Nothing wrong with that, gotta have something to aim and work for :)

If attacker with such properties decide to block your movement, and believe me it is always possible in aikido framework, nage have to do very strong lock on uke arm in order to put him off balance. Such lock of course can easy dislocate joints if attacker still fights back.


I agree that some uke`s can shut you down if you give them the chance, but I disagree that consequently it requires a very strong lock to break the balance from there. Still maybe idealist, but again, something to work towards :)

rgds
Bryan

[Dirk Hanss]

:) OK, so how do I grow my hands bigger so they can grab and hold all these big thick hairy wrists in katatedori? ;)

With some folk it's like a shark trying to chew a large solid beach ball - I just bounce off 'em.

Perhaps katatedori isn't an appropriate attack for these types of forearms? :crazy:

Ruth
Hi Ruth,
I don't think you would like to run around with such hands ;)

Take the opportunity to learn not to grap. Feel uke's power follow it and redirect it. Well, I do not claim, I can do this, but sometimes it seems to work (a bit).

What do you want to hear about an appropriate attack? Aikidoka learn so much counters, so the best attack is no attack.. That is why I practise aikido. I want to prove any opponent, that there there is no appropriate attack. Then we can sit down, have a beer and talk about the issue.

Dirk

[ikkitosennomusha]

I've never thought in Aikido as a way to maintain "masculinity", but...

Every male has a variant degree of masculinty. Mine happens to be beyond the norm. Aikido helped me to maintain those enhanced characteristics that comprise my "muscularity" or "masculinity". I assumed most people would know what I was talking about but I guess not. Furthermore, I never said I use it for "a way" to maintain, it just so happens that training aikido has indirectly assisted me in maintenence through cardio and throwing people.

[MaryKaye]

My teachers, faced with a range of differently-sized students, say that if you can't get around the wrist go for the hand, or the fingers....You can do some mean throws if you just get one finger....

I do practice with one big guy against whom I can't make any of our standing pins work. He has more leverage in his wrists than I do in my whole arm, and if I provoke him into really exerting himself, he can throw me from most of my "standing pins." Kneeling pins work, if I'm very precise.

Mary Kaye

[ikkitosennomusha]

My teachers, faced with a range of differently-sized students, say that if you can't get around the wrist go for the hand, or the fingers....You can do some mean throws if you just get one finger....

I do practice with one big guy against whom I can't make any of our standing pins work. He has more leverage in his wrists than I do in my whole arm, and if I provoke him into really exerting himself, he can throw me from most of my "standing pins." Kneeling pins work, if I'm very precise.

Mary Kaye

Keep practicing Mary, you can do this! You may have to have a different approach but you can do it. Adress this issue to your sensei for some insight and if that fails, go to some good seminars and address it there. Through training and kowledge, you will find a way to subdue any apponenet.

[James Davis]

My teachers, faced with a range of differently-sized students, say that if you can't get around the wrist go for the hand, or the fingers....You can do some mean throws if you just get one finger....

I do practice with one big guy against whom I can't make any of our standing pins work. He has more leverage in his wrists than I do in my whole arm, and if I provoke him into really exerting himself, he can throw me from most of my "standing pins." Kneeling pins work, if I'm very precise.

Mary Kaye
Fingers! evileyes Yes, but at least two at a time, please! :uch:

Have you tried breaking him down with another technique that he doesn't expect? Surprise is a valuable tool for an aikidoka, right? :D

[Roman Kremianski]

Hi

Sorry for changing the tide of the discussion, but after someone said "it's supposed to be easier to do yonkyo on people with thin forearms" I wanted to ask about a certain issue:

I have rather thin forearms/wrists, weigh about 125lbs, yet yonkyo...uh...doesn't have much of an effect on me. Is this normal?

Thanks

(p.s I am also 16, if it makes much of a difference)

[Richard Langridge]

Roman, you are one lucky dude. Forearm thickness doesn't seem to have much to do with it, it's just one of those things. I personally seem to be very susceptible to yonkyo :(

[Karen Wolek]

I have skinny little forearms and wrists....and no Yonkyo "spot" to be found. So people should never rely on the pain, because some of us just don't feel it.

[raul rodrigo]

I am pretty small myself and after ten years of practice, only two people, my teacher and his teacher, have ever been able to make me tap on a yonkyo. Its just the way my forearms are, and I'm not the only one in my dojo. I know of at least five of us, all under 5'5", are more or less immune to yonkyo. So the yonkyo has to be structurally correct to pressure the shoulder as well as the inside of the forearm; you can't rely on pain compliance. As my shihan once said: "Ah, he feels no pain? Okay, we break the arm."

[James Kelly]

As my shihan once said: "Ah, he feels no pain? Okay, we break the arm."As my shihan once said: "Ah, he feels no pain? Okay, we pull his arm hair out. Then he feels pain." :)

[Ron Tisdale]

Anyone as uke go to grab mune mochi/dori, and wonder why your shite/nage is screaming and tapping wildly, only to find out you've got a handfull of chest hair in your fist under their dogi?

:)

[Pauliina Lievonen]

Nope, but once I threw a guy in koshinage only to have him grab one of my nipples...

I never had the heart to tell the guy though. :D

kvaak
Pauliina

[Ron Tisdale]

OOOOOoooo. OUCH. Oh my god. I was at a dojo once where my female partner insisted I had to grab the dogi when thrown with koshi. I don't mind doing it with guys, but I avoid it with female partners for just that reason....

Best,
Ron

[kokyu]

I am pretty small myself and after ten years of practice, only two people, my teacher and his teacher, have ever been able to make me tap on a yonkyo. Its just the way my forearms are, and I'm not the only one in my dojo. I know of at least five of us, all under 5'5", are more or less immune to yonkyo. So the yonkyo has to be structurally correct to pressure the shoulder as well as the inside of the forearm; you can't rely on pain compliance. As my shihan once said: "Ah, he feels no pain? Okay, we break the arm."

1) I'm not a doctor, but maybe a physician could tell us whether the nerve pinch in yonkyo would be easier with a thick or thin forearm (or it doesn't make a difference?). I also also agree that the lock is more important than the pain - as I said in this other thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9567&page=1&pp=25&highlight=yonkyo)

2) I'm going off the track, but I was wondering how many 'yonkyo' nerve points are there? I've only experienced 3:-
i) on the inner wrist
ii) on the outer wrist
iii) near the ankles