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Bronson
03-23-2006, 03:41 PM
Ok, so I'm supposed to be writing a paper but I'm looking for some procrastination :D

Recently I learned the technique for ripping phone books in half (http://www.jengajam.com/r/how-rip-phone-book-two). It really is remarkably simple when you know how and doesn't require much strength. Many people that I've shown it to say something along the lines of "you didn't really rip it in half, you just used a trick to make it easier." The pages aren't pre-ripped or anything, you just position the book correctly and apply force in the correct direction and it just starts to rip. It seems that those people who consider it a "trick" feel that since I didn't use just muscular force to rip it, it doesn't count. I'm wondering if people, especially those in other MA, view aikido techniques in the same way.

Just a little blithering when I should be working ;)

Bronson

roosvelt
03-23-2006, 04:30 PM
Neat trick! I just tore apart my phone book in less than 5 munites following the instruction.

If someone show you how to do a thing, you can learn and do it in less than 1 day, it's a trick.

If you can learn and do it in 10 years or longer, it's a not a trick.

billybob
03-23-2006, 04:36 PM
Ah! Street philosophy!

Question: Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic merit or value.

Recently spent $1300.00 saving a 'free' cat.

Told a new student that he was trying to get 'strong muscular feedback' when doing a breath throw. I told him "If you feel nothing; if you get ZERO feedback you are doing it right." What a dreadful charlatan I am cheating him of years of torment "learning to do nothing". hahahha

I get downright American in my street philosophy - if it works, it's good.

So, tearing the phone book (white pages or buyer's guide?) is not a trick, it's ki. :)

dave

MaryKaye
03-23-2006, 04:39 PM
Depends on why you're doing it!

If you need to get a phone book torn in half, it's not a trick, it's a technique.

If you need to prove that you are very strong, it's a trick (because it doesn't prove that).

Mary Kaye

Kevin Leavitt
03-23-2006, 05:15 PM
Good insight Mary! I like that! Endstate and the outcome is what matters in life!

Steve Mullen
03-23-2006, 05:23 PM
If you use it to get girls its a technique

if you use it to win bets its a trick

Perry Bell
03-23-2006, 05:44 PM
Good insight Mary! I like that! Endstate and the outcome is what matters in life!

Hi Kevin

Some thing for you to think about,

Rather than focusing on the out come alone, would it not be better to focus on the journey making sure that all is balanced, so that the out come is the way we want it. If so, is it not the journey that matters and not the out come?

Perry

Michael O'Brien
03-23-2006, 08:25 PM
More importantly, couldn't you have used Aikido to come to a better resolution to the conflict than having to rip the phone book in half?

:D :D :D :D

SeiserL
03-23-2006, 11:17 PM
IMHO, a lot of the tricks of doing a technique correctly is in the small details, some even sleight of mind.

roosvelt
03-24-2006, 08:10 AM
Depends on why you're doing it!

If you need to get a phone book torn in half, it's not a trick, it's a technique.

If you need to prove that you are very strong, it's a trick (because it doesn't prove that).

Mary Kaye

So If Mary wants to sleep with XYZ, and she puts date rape drug in his drink, it's not a trick, it's a technieuq.

If Mary wants to prove her attractiveness, , and she puts date rape drug in his drink, it's a trick.

A trick is a trick. A lie is a lie. The intention doesn't change the means.

Ron Tisdale
03-24-2006, 08:17 AM
Very perceptive, my young padawan...

Best,
Ron

billybob
03-24-2006, 09:09 AM
Mary Kuhner wrote:
Depends on why you're doing it!

If you need to get a phone book torn in half, it's not a trick, it's a technique.

If you need to prove that you are very strong, it's a trick (because it doesn't prove that).

Mary Kaye
------------------------
and Roosvelt Freeman replied:

So If Mary wants to sleep with XYZ, and she puts date rape drug in his drink, it's not a trick, it's a technieuq.

If Mary wants to prove her attractiveness, , and she puts date rape drug in his drink, it's a trick.

A trick is a trick. A lie is a lie. The intention doesn't change the means.
-----------------------------------------------

Roosvelt, you have objectified a subjective statement. The original quiestion calls for a subjective answer. Your statement can not help but be true, but does not help us understand the original question - "Is it a trick if I didn't have to work hard to acheive it?"

dave

Dirk Hanss
03-24-2006, 09:22 AM
So If Mary wants to sleep with XYZ, and she puts date rape drug in his drink, it's not a trick, it's a technieuq.

If Mary wants to prove her attractiveness, , and she puts date rape drug in his drink, it's a trick.

A trick is a trick. A lie is a lie. The intention doesn't change the means.

If Mary wants to prove, that XYZ is not drug resistant, it is not a trick. The sexual part following would be misuse or abuse, and in any case it is illegal - be careful in international forums, but at least in most countries it would be illegal.

Coming back to generalise.: Every trick is a technique, and every technique is a trick. If your intend is to make someone think something, which is not true, than it is a cheat or a lie.

So if you tell a strong guy "I am stronger than you" and you throw him with an aikido technique or knock him out with a fast and hard atemi to a vital point, it is a lie (or cheat). If you would just have told him "I can defeat you", itis neither a lie nor a cheat, but nevertheless it can be inadequate violence.

Dirk

Qatana
03-24-2006, 09:53 AM
Excuse me but if a woman put the "date rape drug" in any man's drink, all she would be doing would be waiting around for him to wake up. So this analogy is meaningless.

roosvelt
03-24-2006, 10:23 AM
Excuse me but if a woman put the "date rape drug" in any man's drink, all she would be doing would be waiting around for him to wake up. So this analogy is meaningless.

Please don't hold back. Tell us the whole story. Was the dose too large? What did he say afterwards? :)

ian
03-24-2006, 12:15 PM
I think aikido involves alot of psychological tricks (e.g. coiling motion - which is difficult for people to follow, leading, atemi's, entering hard but being soft etc). To be able to do something that the other person cannot resist or adapt to has to be a 'trick'. Indeed, I wish there was more research into this self-defence aspect. The focus on 'techniques' especially when they have to feel like they would work, seems almost pointless.

Michael O'Brien
03-24-2006, 01:18 PM
So If Mary wants to sleep with XYZ, and she puts date rape drug in his drink, it's not a trick, it's a technieuq.

If Mary wants to prove her attractiveness, , and she puts date rape drug in his drink, it's a trick.

A trick is a trick. A lie is a lie. The intention doesn't change the means.

Actually if Mary wanted to sleep with XYZ all she would have to do is say "Let's go" I'm sure. LOL

No drugs required. :)

Michael O'Brien
03-24-2006, 01:25 PM
Please don't hold back. Tell us the whole story. Was the dose too large? What did he say afterwards? :)

Actually I think the point is that most date rape drugs such as Rohypnol are versions of sleeping pills/sedatives that cause the victim to ultimately pass out. That would make it more difficult for a man to perform his part in the sexual act.

akiy
03-24-2006, 01:31 PM
Hi folks,

Can we steer the subject back to the initial poster's inquiry regarding "techniques" versus "tricks" in aikido?

Thanks,

-- Jun

thomas_dixon
03-24-2006, 02:12 PM
Well I'm not really sure there is a such thing as "tricks" in MA. When you're fighting for your life, there isn't really a line you can draw that says "you're cheating!".

There are lots of examples of what would appear to be tricks in MA, like in Aikido's sword drills (with a partner) where you drop your sword to look vulnerable, kind of saying "hey look! come cut me down!" when you intend to do just the opposite, could be seen as a "trick", when in fact it's really more of a strategy.

billybob
03-24-2006, 03:05 PM
Ian D. said To be able to do something that the other person cannot resist or adapt to has to be a 'trick'. Indeed, I wish there was more research into this self-defence aspect.

I do too. I trained with Shihan from further south at a seminar a while back. When I kept laughing he aked why. I told him he kept fooling my nervous system and it felt wonderful. I find technique pretty easy. I memorize the names, I can do the steps in the right order. So, in fact, all my martial study is learning 'the trick'. I was serious in my post above about 'zero feedback'. When you do koshi nage correctly - you can't feel nage's weight: a condition I call 'perfect balance'. God I miss that 'not feeling'!!!!

dave