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jducusin
03-16-2006, 12:47 PM
...for a very petite woman such as I am, has become the new bane of my Aiki-existence.

I know that without a doubt there has to be a (relatively) physical force/"effortless" way of doing this (I've even had a couple of instances where it felt all right --- without much luck replicating it), but aside from practicing this ad nauseum (which I'm currently doing) I am welcoming input from those here who are physically in a similar position with this technique. I'm doing it from Ushiro Ryokatatedori for my Nikyu test.

Please and thank-you!

Don_Modesto
03-16-2006, 01:16 PM
If I'm thinking of the same technique as you, step deeply behind UKE while leading his/her momentum past you. Don't lift the legs, but sweep them.

Hope this helps.

ChrisHein
03-16-2006, 01:24 PM
Aiki otoshi (if it's the same as we practice it) is one of the more effortless techniques to achieve, I'm a bigger guy, but I've taught children to do it to full grown men. The trick is to make them ride on your hip/thigh. Don't lift them, that's difficult. Instead shear their upper and lower body in two parts with your hip, then slide your leg (bent like sitting on a chair for stability) then use your upper body to turn them over your leg, the weight should be taken on your thigh and not in your back or arms, they ride your leg, you don't throw them over it.

Hope it helps.
-Chris Hein

Hope it helps.
-Chris Hein

Ron Tisdale
03-16-2006, 01:57 PM
If you follow the link below, there is a slide show of Kanai Sensei doing "aiki otoshi". Is this the technique to which you refer?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.2rivers.org/images/aikith.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.2rivers.org/photos.htm&h=72&w=100&sz=2&tbnid=m2H1v82MxYNl0M:&tbnh=55&tbnw=77&hl=en&start=21&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522aiki%2Botoshi%2522%26start%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D %26sa%3DN
Thanks,
Ron

NagaBaba
03-16-2006, 04:22 PM
If you follow the link below, there is a slide show of Kanai Sensei doing "aiki otoshi". Is this the technique to which you refer?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.2rivers.org/images/aikith.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.2rivers.org/photos.htm&h=72&w=100&sz=2&tbnid=m2H1v82MxYNl0M:&tbnh=55&tbnw=77&hl=en&start=21&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522aiki%2Botoshi%2522%26start%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D %26sa%3DN
Thanks,
Ron
very nice technique, isn't it :D

jducusin
03-16-2006, 10:13 PM
If you follow the link below, there is a slide show of Kanai Sensei doing "aiki otoshi". Is this the technique to which you refer?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.2rivers.org/images/aikith.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.2rivers.org/photos.htm&h=72&w=100&sz=2&tbnid=m2H1v82MxYNl0M:&tbnh=55&tbnw=77&hl=en&start=21&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522aiki%2Botoshi%2522%26start%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D %26sa%3DN
Thanks,
Ron

Hai, hai. Arigato! :D

eyrie
03-16-2006, 10:22 PM
Does anyone know why it's aiki-otoshi instead of sukui-nage?

Ron Tisdale
03-17-2006, 08:20 AM
Yes, it is very nice technique. I actually don't remember seeing this done in the Yoshinkan, but I have seen it in Daito ryu (either in nikkajo or the goshin no yo te, I can't remember which). I do remember Kondo Sensei stressing that the closer you are to the feet when you lift, the easier it is to do the throw, and that's what seemed to work for me. Kanai Sensei seems to lift at the hip and the thigh. When we practiced lifting from the feet, something about uke being top heavy made them much lighter when lifting from their calf / ankle region. But I certainly love the way Kanai Sensei is able to throw uke out.

I can't say what the difference would be between this and the judo throw. I looked up judo examples and the basic principles seem to be similar, except for the attack.
Best,
Ron

Fiona D
03-17-2006, 08:22 AM
"Does anyone know why it's aiki-otoshi instead of sukui-nage?"

I was thinking sukui-nage too, but that could just be the fact that I've trained much more jiu jitsu than aikido. Anyway, as previous posters have said, the trick to this is unbalancing them over your thigh, having stepped in *really* deep. They should be starting to fall back over your leg already by the time you start moving their legs with your arms; the "lift"/sweep gets that nice rotation so they land behind you, but you're not really taking their weight.

Now here's the next question, from a fellow petite woman: does anyone have any good tips for doing this throw on nervous ukes who cling to your back like a limpet and thus pull you over with them? (I'm fairly guilty of this myself, but I'm light, so most of my nages can just stand there while I slide...)

Jose Garrido
03-17-2006, 08:30 AM
Ron,

In DTR it is part of the Nikajo series. This technique is also present in Nihon Goshin Aikido, it is called the Scoop Throw. When the technique is done on this style one arm rides up under one arm first, then the legs are attacked or "scooped".

See you in October (I hope)
Jose Garrido ;)

Ron Tisdale
03-17-2006, 08:44 AM
Hey Jose,

Good to hear from you! Yeah, I remembered training this, but couldn't remember what catalog it came from. Does Nihon Goshin scoop at the thighs, or the ankles?

Looking forward to October,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
03-17-2006, 08:47 AM
Now here's the next question, from a fellow petite woman: does anyone have any good tips for doing this throw on nervous ukes who cling to your back like a limpet and thus pull you over with them? (I'm fairly guilty of this myself, but I'm light, so most of my nages can just stand there while I slide...)

I think Jose could give better advice than I, but I would try the scoop at the ankles version. If you enter in deeply like you are really attacking the hips, then scoop at the ankles, I don't think uke will be able to get a good grip on you to bring you down.

Best,
Ron

nathansnow
03-17-2006, 09:35 AM
Does anyone know why it's aiki-otoshi instead of sukui-nage?
That is the name that I have heard associated with this technique. I think that this technique has it's roots in jujitsu and sukui-nage is the word that they use.

jss
03-17-2006, 09:35 AM
You might be going for the legs too soon.
Try to do a koyu nage/sokumen irimi nage from the same attack first. (description below) Use this to unbalace uke, then enter with the hips, then go for the legs, ankles whatever.
Rather than throwing uke by his legs, let him fall over your hip/leg while you control his legs.
It's the same as with koshi nage:if there's too much of a size difference, there's no point in trying to actually throw uke.

Description:
Tori stands in left hanmi.
Uke takes left wrist, goes around back, takes your right wrist.
Tori steps forward with right foot and extends arms forward.
Uke ends up at the fornt right side of tori.
(That what you do for practically every technique.)
Now tori enters with his right foot at the back side of uke, arms extended, right arm at head height, left arm at stomach height.
Et voilà!

nathansnow
03-17-2006, 09:44 AM
Now here's the next question, from a fellow petite woman: does anyone have any good tips for doing this throw on nervous ukes who cling to your back like a limpet and thus pull you over with them? (I'm fairly guilty of this myself, but I'm light, so most of my nages can just stand there while I slide...)
Very hard to do correct on a "clingy" uke that is not willing to take the fall. You want to do the technique but also don't want to hurt your partner. You might try to work on breaking their grip a bit as they move around you. If you can avoid having them get a solid grip from the start, they won't be able to cling later in the technique.
One way to deal with it on the street would be to use your elbow to deliver a strike to the soloplexes (sorry for the spelling!) or ribs while falling on top of them as they hit the ground. This really hurts and I wouldn't try it in class unless you have a willing party to try it out on and they know it's coming!! :crazy:
Another way to deal with it on the street is to simply make sure that their head lands on the ground first as you fall down on them.... they will most likely let go at that point.

Good luck!

raul rodrigo
03-17-2006, 10:18 AM
Now here's the next question, from a fellow petite woman: does anyone have any good tips for doing this throw on nervous ukes who cling to your back like a limpet and thus pull you over with them? (I'm fairly guilty of this myself, but I'm light, so most of my nages can just stand there while I slide...)

If you throw him straight back then there is a chance he can pull you down. If you throw in a circular motion on a horizontal plane at the same time you do the "lift" on the knees or even the ankles, then he will spin around the axis of your body and then fall behind you. and even his arm/hand on your shoulder will slide off. As long as he is falling straight back, the arm near you, on your shoulder, will be tempted to grab you.

Ron Tisdale
03-17-2006, 10:34 AM
I like that description Raul, thanks!

Best,
Ron

Jose Garrido
03-17-2006, 11:55 AM
Ron,

In NGA the attack point is just above the ankle. This give great leverage, so this would be real good for a smaller person.

Jose'

Karen Wolek
03-17-2006, 02:51 PM
In my dojo, we hold onto uke's knees. Like this photo:

http://honkadori.radek.sk/image/techniky/aikiotoshi.gif

Jamie, I am also a small woman (5 feet even) and have difficulties with this throw. We just did it the other day, actually. I was in a group of three: little me, a stocky fireplug ikkyu, and a tall, lanky 15 year old boy. Talk about a challenge! This time I just laughed. A lot. Especially when I ended up falling as nage.

Sensei always points out that we aren't trying to pick up uke. You have already taken their balance when you move in with your hips. Now you just sweep them over your leg.

Easy for a strong, tall 4th dan to say. <grin>

I have improved though, I think, so there is hope!

billybob
03-17-2006, 05:13 PM
I love this throw - I usually do it to "Mighty Joe Young" at our school when he resists with upper body; I step in, grab and 'sit/fall down and take him with'. The power comes from 'falling' behind uke. Try the sacrifice way (keep your hand flat whenever someone's spine impacts your hand and the mat) a few times, then 'fall' into the deep step, but don't sit down.

Works a lot of the time....or, they punch/choke the hell out of you.

David

eyrie
03-17-2006, 07:48 PM
Well, sukui-nage IS scooping throw. I've found a small circle rotation around uke's center with the shoulders, and thighs to be particularly effective. What I'd like to know is why it's called aiki-otoshi in aikido. What is technically different that makes it an aiki drop as opposed to a scooping throw?

giriasis
03-17-2006, 10:59 PM
Now here's the next question, from a fellow petite woman: does anyone have any good tips for doing this throw on nervous ukes who cling to your back like a limpet and thus pull you over with them? (I'm fairly guilty of this myself, but I'm light, so most of my nages can just stand there while I slide...)

You mean that's not how were supposed to take the ukemi? I thought the idea was to try and go for a piggy back ride. ;)

But seriously, it helps me if it don't try to take them over my knee but let them fall in front of you instead, especially if they are afraid to go backwards over someone's knee, like me. And doing aiki-nage this way is a lot easier to do on the bigger people.

batemanb
03-18-2006, 03:31 AM
This thread is the first time I've heard the term sukuinage, I've always been taught this as aikiotoshi. One of my fav techniques, used to scare the bejeezers out of some of the Japanese when I was in Tokyo because being 6' 2" I could throw them quite away :) I was very kind though :).

The trick here, as has been previously mentioned, is to enter deep behind uke, whilst at the same time using your "unbendable arm" to enter across the front of them just above waist height. When you enter deep, you should be sinking to lower your center below uke, the use of your arm aids this considerably. Once you've entered, make sure that you have a good posture, uke should by this time actually be sitting on your leg/ knee. This way, you are not lifting his body weight, only taking his legs off the floor. I usually "scoop" them up around the knees from here, and then as Raul said rotate at the hips throwing them in a circular motion on a horizontal plane. I find this works well for me.

rgds
Bryan

eyrie
03-18-2006, 04:36 AM
See Bryan, if you're scooping, then it's a scooping throw, isn't it? How does it become an aiki-drop?

batemanb
03-18-2006, 04:59 AM
See Bryan, if you're scooping, then it's a scooping throw, isn't it? How does it become an aiki-drop?

Don't have an answer for you Ignatius, can only talk from what I've been taught. Like I said, I've never heard the term sukuinage before today, even in class in Japan it was referred to as Aikiotoshi.

You'll notice though I quoted "scoop", mainly because it's the word everyone else was using, personally I "lift" from the knees :D and throw away, you could just as easily "lift" from the knees and drop uke straight back making it a drop rather than a throw.

I don't allay to be doing this correctly, just what works for me ;)

rgds
Bryan

jducusin
03-18-2006, 06:13 PM
Thanks to everyone for all the great replies! Naturally, my Sensei has mentioned a great deal of this already but as you probably already know, seeing it and hearing it tends to be much simpler than doing it oftentimes. Practice, practice, practice! :D

I'll definitely keep all of your input in mind the next time around and will keep you posted on any new developments.

Happy training to all,
Jamie

raul rodrigo
03-18-2006, 09:20 PM
Don't have an answer for you Ignatius, can only talk from what I've been taught. Like I said, I've never heard the term sukuinage before today, even in class in Japan it was referred to as Aikiotoshi.

Sukui nage is a judo throw that looks a lot like aiki otoshi. It is typically used as a counter to a hip throw like harai goshi. As uke comes in and turns to throw, you drop your hips and lower your center. With uke stymied, you lean forward, grab uke's thighs or knees and rise, scooping him up over your thigh and then behind you. One of my judo sensei loved to do the sacrifice version of sukui nage, ie, dropping on top of you and going straight to the groundwork.

Because of the different contexts in which the two throws are used, the technical emphases are different in each art. Aikido stresses entering deep behind uke and using the arm to unbalance him over your thigh. Its really sokumen irimi-nage with a hip, thigh and a little scooping thrown in. Judo doesnt stress the entering, because you are usually already behind uke and even if his hip throw is stymied, its difficult to unbalance a skilled judoka in that way at this point. Its easier to go even lower than uke, grab his ankles and then rise.

eyrie
03-18-2006, 09:29 PM
Thanks Raul, that's more in line with my thinking.

Karen Wolek
03-19-2006, 03:19 PM
My sensei (Bob Wilcox) subbed for his sensei (Harvey Konigsberg) in Woodstock this morning, so I drove up for the class.

Guess what we did today? Yup, (yokomen) aiki-otoshi! My sensei likes this move, so I'm getting pretty used to it. My partner wasn't quite as comfortable with it and asked if I was ok with the ukemi. "Oh, sure...." :)

Luckily she is only a little taller than I am, and is 2nd or 1st kyu, so I think we worked together pretty well. She didn't quite get the throw, so I kinda just fell on my own, plunk, but she got the idea.

After the "normal" one, we did a really confusing one that I think I first did about a year ago when Skip Chapman taught a seminar at my dojo. I couldn't even explain it if I tried....but pretty much EVERYONE was confused (from 4th kyu to yondan), except my sensei. The aiki-otoshi is the same, but getting there is a whole 'nother story!

It was fun, though.

Damn, I love aikido.

Charlie
03-19-2006, 10:39 PM
...Yes, it is very nice technique. I actually don't remember seeing this done in the Yoshinkan, but I have seen it in Daito ryu (either in nikkajo or the goshin no yo te, I can't remember which). I do remember Kondo Sensei stressing that the closer you are to the feet when you lift, the easier it is to do the throw, and that's what seemed to work for me...

Hey Ron,

Guess what? Terada and Parker sensei teach this technique! I did it many many times while I was in Japan. The technique is a staple for those of us in the Yoshinkan Seiseikai and Yoshinkan Yoseikai organizations.

As a matter of fact, here is a video clip of me doing it during part of my nidan test in Yokosuka, Japan in front of Terada sensei himself back in June of 1997.

http://www.myaa.info/media/AIKI-OTOSHI.wmv

I absolutely cringe when I watch this video because of all the mistakes [there are several that are visible to me during the actual execution of the technique]. But alas we all learn...right?!

Anyway, I was always told to SCOOP [actual word used] up with the thumbs behind the calves [on down]. In the clip it looks as if I actually had my hands in the wrong position as I scooped up uke from behind his calves.

As far as the throw goes. It is NOT a physical [a.k.a. muscular] throw. It is a downward throw that originates from nage's center. It is a similar type motion that we use to throw from various other control/arrest type techniques. Also notice that I do not lift [B]all of uke so to speak but instead lift his legs [much much lighter!].

Even though uke holds on to my shoulder he is still thrown down as well.

Enjoy!

Charles

xuzen
03-20-2006, 04:55 AM
This is sukui-nage (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/sukuinage.htm).

Ron and Charlie,
I am a Yoshinkan player and yet I have never seen this technique listed in its syllabus, heck, even the name aiki-otoshi is alien to me. I have seen my adjutant sensei performed this technique before. However, I always assume that he picked it up via judo, not Yoshinkan aikido. This further shows just how much overlap in technical repertoire between aikido and judo.

Boon.

Amelia Smith
03-20-2006, 05:57 AM
Yes, you can just lift the uke's legs and tip the uke over your thigh/hip. That basic version of aikiotoshi is not too difficult to do on a large, heavy person. BUT, if you look carefully at the Kanai Sensei video a few posts up, you will see that while the uke is balanced on his hip, he projects quite far forward with his hip. I find it very difficult to get that extra projection into the throw with a larger uke.

Ron Tisdale
03-20-2006, 08:11 AM
Hi Boon,

Actually it comes to aikido through Daito ryu, I don't know where judo picked it up. In the clips I found for sukuinage on the net (judo version) it looked like a counter throw, but since I know squat about judo, I didn't mention it.

Charles, thanks for the clip! So those branches of the yoshinkan that still do it call it Aiki-otoshi?
Best,
Ron
This is sukui-nage (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/sukuinage.htm).

Ron and Charlie,
I am a Yoshinkan player and yet I have never seen this technique listed in its syllabus, heck, even the name aiki-otoshi is alien to me. I have seen my adjutant sensei performed this technique before. However, I always assume that he picked it up via judo, not Yoshinkan aikido. This further shows just how much overlap in technical repertoire between aikido and judo.

Boon.

Ron Tisdale
03-20-2006, 08:13 AM
Kanai Sensei seems to use a very powerfull shuffle step in body change to do that. It really is a very nice waza, the way he does it.

Best,
Ron

kaishaku
03-20-2006, 01:12 PM
We've done this in BJJ against bear hugs and such. Except, instead of lifting the legs straight up, we sort of lifted them up and across diagonally, like a reverse yokomen I suppose.

Bronson
03-20-2006, 01:47 PM
When we do this it is a way different version... but then Rachel Massey (hi Rachel) once told me that we do aikido but it's not like any aikido she's ever seen :D

The ukemi from our aikiotoshi ends up being a very soft sit-roll, much like many of our techniques.

We also go for the knees but instead of reaching straight for the knees we start higher on the thigh and drop (with a little forward) our hands into the back of uke's knees when we drop our centers. It's just like starting higher on the arm and sliding down to the wrist for kotegeashi. This usually has the effect of uke's balance being broken at their knees and with just a little nudge in the right direction they teeter over backward and sit-roll.

Wow, that doesn't make any sense and I know what I'm trying to say :freaky:

Bronson

deepsoup
03-20-2006, 02:34 PM
Actually it comes to aikido through Daito ryu, I don't know where judo picked it up.

Kito Ryu, maybe?
According to this (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10a.html) bit of the Shodokan Honbu website, our equivalent (ish) of aikiotoshi (gedanate) is based on the principles of uchi kudaki, the 8th technique in Kodokan Judo's 'Koshiki no Kata'. That particular kata was (I believe) an old Kito-Ryu kata that predates Kodokan Judo by quite some time.

Sean
x

Charlie
03-20-2006, 03:30 PM
…I am a Yoshinkan player and yet I have never seen this technique listed in its syllabus, heck, even the name aiki-otoshi is alien to me. I have seen my adjutant sensei performed this technique before. However, I always assume that he picked it up via judo, not Yoshinkan aikido. This further shows just how much overlap in technical repertoire between aikido and judo…

Hello Boon. Well let's see. Let's sweeten the pot. Both Terada sensei and Shioda sensei were accomplished Judoka. They both studied with Ueshiba sensei at one point who himself obviously was accomplished in jujitsu. Judo is an evolution stemming from jujitsu…Looks like one big Aiki version of which came first the chicken or the egg!

On a second note: You can find in most Yoshinkan publications references being made that if you master the kihon waza [the base 150 techniques] that the remaining some 2000 to 3000 techniques will be opened up to you. When was the last time that you saw anything that broaches the subject of these remaining techniques?

The truth be told, you usually have to go outside of the Yoshinkan Honbu to find these other techniques. Terada sensei still teaches these other techniques [as well as Parker sensei -- his senior student]. He has championed himself to teach what he was taught and that predates the Yoshinkan Honbu [which he was a Dojo-cho of at one time].

All I can say is that there are many techniques that I performed while studying with Terada and Parker sensei that you just don't see elsewhere in the Yoshinkan world.

...Yes, you can just lift the uke's legs and tip the uke over your thigh/hip. That basic version of aikiotoshi is not too difficult to do on a large, heavy person. BUT, if you look carefully at the Kanai Sensei video a few posts up, you will see that while the uke is balanced on his hip, he projects quite far forward with his hip. I find it very difficult to get that extra projection into the throw with a larger uke...

Hello Amelia. Jeez, I hope you are not making a direct comparison between my sorry technique and Kanai sensei's! As I stated, I was a shodan going for my nidan and invariably there are mistakes in my technique.

That being said, however, please note that there are some fundamental differences between the two versions of the technique [as presented] that I may be a little more qualified to comment on now do to some growth being gained between the then and now.

First off, the initial setup is fundamentally the same as far as how to enter into the technique. However, notice that the end results between the two techniques are different. In the video I presented, I am clearly throwing uke to my left rear on an oblique angle. I am doing so by executing a shuffle step with the final throw originating from my center. I am not just dropping uke or allowing him to topple of his own accord do to knocking him off balance. As I recall there is a very distinct feeling of floating uke to properly accomplish this technique.

Looking carefully at the video of Kanai sensei [as you suggested] I see a very powerful throw also emanating from his hips. I don't really see an elongated projection as you suggest there is because I don't see Kanai sensei really advancing once the throw is being executed [other than shifting his hips/weight left to right]. If you look at his right foot as he has uke unbalanced it never advances again. Don't get me wrong, he is projecting uke forward but it looks to me to be less of a distance than it first appears due to uke falling to their opposite side helping to create the space that you see.

To make it even more interesting, the way we are taught the actual throw in the Yoshinkan Seiseikai [and Yoseikai] IRIMINAGE techniques requires the exact same method of entering as required in the AIKI-OTOSHI technique. The only difference is [once you have entered] in Iriminage the arms and center go up and Aiki-Otoshi the arms and center go down.

If it wasn't for the fact that I can clearly see Kanai sensei lifting uke at the hips I would almost say that this is what a Yoshinkan Iriminage looks like [again Seiseikai and Yoseikai version] ALMOST!

…Charles, thanks for the clip! So those branches of the yoshinkan that still do it call it Aiki-otoshi…

If I remember correctly this is the name that is/was used. However, I believe it is a generic term because there are some other techniques that where called Aiki-otoshi as well.

DISCLAIMER: This is not a direct critique of the effectiveness of Kanai sensei or even myself. Nor is it presented to convey what is to be concidered as right or wrong. It is just what it is - a comparison between two different methods.

Best regards,

Charles

eyrie
03-20-2006, 04:54 PM
After a second look at the Kanai aikiotoshi slideshow and the judoinfo sukuinage, I can't see any distinct difference between the two. I see both using the arm across the front and grasping the hip and the other behind the knee.

NagaBaba
03-20-2006, 07:14 PM
That being said, however, please note that there are some fundamental differences between the two versions of the technique [as presented] that I may be a little more qualified to comment on now do to some growth being gained between the then and now.
Hi Charles,
It is true, there are some fundamental differences between the two versions :D Most important is, you are not taking balance of your attacker before going for his knees, on slow motion we can clearly see this, his back is straight. ;)
Without a lot of help from uke, this version is inefficient. Your back is bend horizontally, his back is straight vertically, if he simply bend his knees, you cant lift him up. He can freely hit your head or choke you out....etc. How and where you "throw" uke is here irrelevant, it is up to individual approach of each instructor, depends what he wants to develop.

Kanai sensei version is fundamentally different, throw starts in the moment of unbalancing, and shift of his hips simply extends gravity's work.

Key point here is not to lift uke up (which is very difficult event if tori take uke's balance) , but to use uke weight against him.

In very rudimentary version axe of pivot uke's body is a hip of tori (so we may have strong leverage on uke), in more advanced version, tori is pushing uke, I'd say horizontally, while he is on air losing his balance -- so no physical leverage really exist. This is only possible with very fluid motion, without dividing movement on phases.

Hope it helps.

Michael Douglas
03-20-2006, 07:39 PM
I can only get Charles' demo and the Judo one.
Looks good, looks like Judo.
Far less elegant than a lot of Aikido, but if the victim doesn't know what's coming then this looks very effective, hard to counter.
Even heaved high, like Charles did, ukemi is no worry, apart from the occassional accident with broken necks. Unlikely to happen though.

Charlie
03-20-2006, 10:39 PM
Hello Szczepan. Thank you for your comments. To be clear - the video I posted is almost 9 years old and as I already stated I was only a shodan at that time. For me to even think that my technique was flawless would be incorrect.

That being said, one of the criticisms I had of myself as well, after reviewing this tape 9 years ago, is somewhat similar to what you are stating. I too feel that I am bent forward a little too far and did not drop my weight down as far as I should have.

There are many factors that play into that but by far the biggest is that I am 6'1' and my uke was of a more ‘nominal' height. Also, the version I present is from a yokomen attack with my setup/entry coming from the side of uke. Kanai sensei's technique is an Ushiro Waza with his setup coming more from his backside.

Either way, if you look at Kanai sensei's video you can clearly see him bending forward as well. As I see it, if you come in too straight you will push uke away before you have time to setup the throw.

[B]Kanai sensei's video: http://www.2rivers.org/photo5.htm
Charlie's video: http://www.myaa.info/media/AIKI-OTOSHI.wmv

Take a look at this photo of Parker sensei entering to do a technique:

http://www.myaa.info/images/30July2005_0020.JPG

Can you tell what technique he is setting up for? I ask because one of the parting comments I had in my last post was that the entry [setup] for us in the Yoshinkan [Seiseikai and Yoseikai] for Aiki-Otoshi is exactly the same as Sokumen Iriminage.

The reason I keep stressing this is because in our version we are inviting uke to make a decision! Uke has to either drop his weight to keep their balance or they have to stand up and extend their weight upward to keep their balance.

In this photo he is coming in for a Sokumen Iriminage and already has my arm trapped. That is partly why my weight is dropped down so far and my feet are wide apart. He has already broken my stance and is preparing to float my weight upward for a side body throw as I help him by attempting to stand and regain my balance.

This is precisely what we want. If uke drops his weight to counter [like others have stated is done in the judo/jujitsu versions], you simply stay down with them and SCOOP their legs which have hopefully come together because they cannot step backwards. You don't lift their whole body but instead lift their legs and float them.

You see both of these things happen in my video. Uke's legs are scooped when his feet are clearly close together. Also, watch Uke's head. There is a very nominal difference in how high it moves up and down which stresses that I am NOT lifting ALL of uke. His feet, however, end up above his head.

How he can effectively strike me or choke me from this position or even the positions prior to this is not readily clear to me [especially since I am entering from Uke's side and I am not the one supporting Uke's weight [so to speak] to allow them to remain in an upright position. Uke has to do this by using the only thing that is available to them -- their hands]

As I see it, if the technique is done properly, they do not have a strong base to launch an offensive from and the transition should be quick enough to combat this even further.

Respectfully,

Charles

Ron Tisdale
03-21-2006, 08:04 AM
Excellent posts and examples Charles, Thanks!

Best,
Ron

dbotari
03-21-2006, 02:54 PM
This is sukui-nage (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/sukuinage.htm).

Ron and Charlie,
I am a Yoshinkan player and yet I have never seen this technique listed in its syllabus, heck, even the name aiki-otoshi is alien to me. I have seen my adjutant sensei performed this technique before. However, I always assume that he picked it up via judo, not Yoshinkan aikido. This further shows just how much overlap in technical repertoire between aikido and judo.

Boon.

Boon,

I am also a Yoshinkan practitioner with Kimeda Sensei in Toronto. We practice this technique fairly often but it has never been (as far as I know a part of the testing curriculum or part of Hombu's curriculum).

FWIW

Dan Botari

Ron Tisdale
03-21-2006, 03:02 PM
Hi Dan,

When Kimeda Sensei does this technique, does he scoop at the thigh, knees or ankles? Did you notice how he holds his hands as he scoops?

Best,
Ron (osu)

Steven
03-21-2006, 05:07 PM
We did this technique at Mits Yamashita Sensei's dojo as well. Though i called it the "Oh my god this is gonna hurt" technique. LOL!

Nice picture Charlie. Damn that's a good looking dojo ::snicker:: I think I'll add this technique to the list I'm sending to Parker Sensei. Look forward to seeing you take flight again. :-)

xuzen
03-21-2006, 10:46 PM
Hi Boon, actually it comes to aikido through Daito ryu, I don't know where judo picked it up. Ron

Ron,

In the book Kodokan Judo by J. Kano, if you look at the Koshiki no Kata, we see J. Kano performing Sukui Nage on an unidentified uke. It is in this book as well, that J. Kano said that these katas are taken from the Kito-ryu school. An interesting fact is that the Koshiki No Kata is done with the assumption that both tori and nage are in heavy clad armour of old. So Sukui Nage is derived from Kito-ryu school of jujutsu withing the Judo context.

The version of Sukui Nage that I happen to have the opportunity to take ukemi from appears to be a thigh lift and throw. I.e, the tori, using both his hands grab both my thighs and using tenkan motion, rotate and release... I am flung backwards. The ukemi is pretty scary to take. I am totally uncomfortable with the ukemi.

Dan and Steven,
Would I be correct to say that this technique is outside the standard Yoshinkan syllabus? I have not personally see Kancho Shioda perform this throw before (from his videos of course, I was not a Yoshinkan player during his life time, unfortunately).

Charlie,
It is interesting to note how different teachers view aikido. For example you mention Terada and Kancho being Judo players, and as such you see the judo nage waza overlap into their aikido. My sensei was a boxer and karate man before coming to aikido... and as such atemi is a heavy influence in our version of aikido. IMO, aikido gets more and more interesting as one progress further, when one start to look beyond kihon waza.

Charlie
03-22-2006, 05:06 AM
…we see J. Kano performing Sukui Nage on an unidentified uke. It is in this book as well, that J. Kano said that these katas are taken from the Kito-ryu school…

...So Sukui Nage is derived from Kito-ryu school of jujutsu withing the Judo context…

……It is interesting to note how different teachers view aikido. For example you mention Terada and Kancho being Judo players, and as such you see the judo nage waza overlap into their aikido…

I definitely am not qualified to answer for either Shioda or Terada sensei as to what may have influenced what techniques they teach or have taught. I can venture an educated guess as to what may have influenced them but that is all.

For the record, when I mention the connection both Terada and Shioda sensei share with their Judo backgrounds, I do so to highlight the point that what they learned from Judo and what they learned from Ueshiba sensei's Aikido, all hasten back to the shared roots of jujitsu. As always IMO!

I feel that it is only reasonable that there could be some type of an overlap in their respective technical repertoires being that they both have studied from more than one branch of the ‘jujitsu tree'. That being said though, I feel that it would be very difficult to trying and pin point from which side certain techniques came from.

Case in point:

Here are 2 photocopies from pages 185 and 186 of the paperback book ‘Budo Training in Aikido' by Morihei Ueshiba sensei [ISBN 4-88996-079-1]. There are no title names for the techniques other than #147 but an educated assessment would say that it is Ushiro waza Ryokata mochi Aiki-Otoshi [Yoshinkan verbiage].

Granted, these are non-precise sketch drawings from an original publication put out in circa 1933. However, Morihei Ueshiba sensei approved them himself and the original copies of this book were circulated with the intention of being used as a teaching manual.

http://www.myaa.info/images/Aiki-Otoshi_1.jpg
http://www.myaa.info/images/Aiki-Otoshi_2.jpg

Notice the throwing positions of Nage and Uke on the second link/page. I would say that it looks curious similar to what was done in the video I provided. That being the case, is it a Kito-Ryu/Judo or Aikijujitsu/Aikido technique?

Also, I added a photocopy of page 84 from Budo: Teachings of the Founder of Aikido by Morihei Ueshiba sensei and translated by John Stevens [ISBN 4-7700-1532-1]. The original book was published circa 1938 with the dojo pictures taken circa 1936.

I added this picture to help further illustrate my point of how similar the entrance and setup is between a Sokumen Iriminage and an Aiki-Otoshi technique for those of us in the Yoshinkan [Seiseikai and Yoseikai] since our techniques tend to portrait a connection with the Founder's earlier teachings [and subsequently share a closer resemblance visually to Aikijujitsu].

http://www.myaa.info/images/Sokumen_Iriminage.jpg


…Would I be correct to say that this technique is outside the standard Yoshinkan syllabus? I have not personally see Kancho Shioda perform this throw before (from his videos of course, I was not a Yoshinkan player during his life time, unfortunately…

What do you mean by standard Yoshinkan syllables? If you are referring to the 150 kihon waza then yes, it is outside of that. However, if you are referring to the some 2500 to 3000 techniques that have been mentioned in Yoshinkan publications [take a look at page 16 to 17 of Dynamic Aikido by Gozo Shioda sensei ISBN 0-87011-301-1] then I would have to say no, it is not outside of the Yoshinkan syllabus.

…Nice picture Charlie. Damn that's a good looking dojo ::snicker:: I think I'll add this technique to the list I'm sending to Parker Sensei. Look forward to seeing you take flight again. :-)…

I thought you might like the picture Steven…hope you don't mind?

I'll have to make sure you are acting as Uke when Parker sensei demos this technique then. We'll see who's laughing then!

...Excellent posts and examples Charles, Thanks…

Thank you Ron and thanks for commenting on the subject matter. It sure feels good to have to fire up the ole gray matter and long term memory cells. Hope the pictures help.

Regards,

Charles

Ron Tisdale
03-22-2006, 07:59 AM
The pics are excellent. On the subject, I would always look first in the parent art to determine what is in the child. As I said earlier, this technique is clearly in the kajo of Daito ryu. As such, I think it has great validity in aikido, even if certain individuals found it originaly in another source (such as judo). We all already know that many jujutsu arts share kotegaeshi, shihonage and others...here is yet another one.

Good conversation all, Thanks to Jamie for starting it off!
Best,
Ron

dbotari
03-22-2006, 10:34 AM
Hi Dan,

When Kimeda Sensei does this technique, does he scoop at the thigh, knees or ankles? Did you notice how he holds his hands as he scoops?

Best,
Ron (osu)

Hi Ron,

When Kimeda Sensei does it he scoops from just below the knees. He grabs from outside of each leg such that his thumbs and fingers run down the leg towards uke's feet. He then scoops and shifts his hip so that the throwing action is more of a shifting than a lift and throw (if that make sense - not the clearest explanation I know). If you saw the picture of Parker sensei then you get the idea of how Kimeda sensei uses his back leg except that he tends to enter deep enough that both of ukes legs are block and uke is unable to step back out of the throw. Hope this is clear enough for you to understand.

Cheers,

Dan Botari

Ron Tisdale
03-22-2006, 11:34 AM
perfectly clear, Thanks!
B,
R

Charlie
03-23-2006, 02:55 PM
…When Kimeda Sensei does it he scoops from just below the knees. He grabs from outside of each leg such that his thumbs and fingers run down the leg towards uke's feet. He then scoops and shifts his hip so that the throwing action is more of a shifting than a lift and throw …

Well it seems from a Yoshinkan point of view that there is a general consensus as to how ‘we' all enter for the throw.


…if you saw the picture of Parker sensei then you get the idea of how Kimeda sensei uses his back leg except that he tends to enter deep enough that both of ukes legs are block and uke is unable to step back out of the throw…

This is the first picture from the same sequence of photos that I took the quoted example above from.

http://www.myaa.info/images/30July2005_0017.jpg

Here you can see the actual hiji-mochi attack. This is important because it leads to why my hips end up so low with my feet and legs wide apart.

http://www.myaa.info/images/30July2005_0020.JPG

As Parker sensei enters, my weight and center are forced down and to my rear following a corkscrew like motion that locks up everything from my arm to my left knee via my hips/center. At this point, because of how he entered, I would not try an Aiki-Otoshi throw.

My legs are too far apart to properly ‘scoop' up Uke. Also, since his arm ends up on top of my arm and shoulder, he would probably end up pushing me away before he could enter deep enough to get both legs.

If his arm was under my arm and shoulder you would definitely see a difference in my stance. His leg would be behind both of my legs and I would not be allowed to splay my legs to keep my balance.

I was reading back through this thread and re-read the post by Raul Rodrigo. I think he summed up this topic very nicely.

…Sukui nage is a judo throw that looks a lot like aiki otoshi. It is typically used as a counter to a hip throw like harai goshi. As uke comes in and turns to throw, you drop your hips and lower your center. With uke stymied, you lean forward, grab uke's thighs or knees and rise, scooping him up over your thigh and then behind you. One of my judo sensei loved to do the sacrifice version of sukui nage, ie, dropping on top of you and going straight to the groundwork.

Because of the different contexts in which the two throws are used, the technical emphases are different in each art. Aikido stresses entering deep behind uke and using the arm to unbalance him over your thigh. Its really sokumen irimi-nage with a hip, thigh and a little scooping thrown in. Judo doesnt stress the entering, because you are usually already behind uke and even if his hip throw is stymied, its difficult to unbalance a skilled judoka in that way at this point. Its easier to go even lower than uke, grab his ankles and then rise...

I may differ with him on how much ‘scooping' can be found in the Aikido version of this technique, but that is about it.

Regards,

Charles